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IV: Heute ist Freitag, der 20. Juli 2012.

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Wir sind in Weiden in der Oberpfalz im Hotel Admira

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und führen jetzt ein Gespräch mit Herrn Nechemia Feder,

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der heute in Israel lebt.

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NF: Zero, Five, Zero, Five 1926. That was my, my birthday date.

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Ah, the city was, {clearing the throat} ca.., is calling, still existing, Kraśnik {clearing the throat}.

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This is a ah, ah district of Lublin.

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Lublin is a, the district, the ah, district city.

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And ah Kraśnik is about ah thirty miles more or less south, south of Lublin.

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This is ah, where we were born.

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And ah, and when the war breaked out,

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I was just thirteen years old.

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And that was ah of course, ah, in a 1939.

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I don't remember, I think ah, which month it was, {laughing}

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when ah German army went into Kraśnik.

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But we as ah little boys, all of ah, we runned out from ah housing,

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from the houses to see the

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march of the German army taking over the city.

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Because at the {clearing the throat}, at the part of our city

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there were a, a military camp, once upon a time, for the Polish army.

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So now it was occupied by the, by the German army.

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So a lot, a lot of ah soldiers by cars, by bicycles, by ah,

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ah, ah, ah, ah, saw horses all kind of ah, of ah transportation.

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A lot, non stop ah are, ah, military went in.

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And we as kids we are looking at it.

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You know, we didn't understand what's going on {laughing}, but

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something is happening {clearing the throat}.

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So we were there, looking at it.

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But ah very soon, after a few days, they already start {clearing the throat} catching people,

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mainly Jewish people at, at the street.

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And taking them to, to {clearing the throat}, to do some kind of work for the German army,

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like {clearing the throat} loading, off-loading stuff and et cetera, you know, at the, ah, camp.

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And in the end of the day, ah people came back home {clearing the throat}.

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But ah more and more comes out more

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instructions that we cannot attend more, any more school.

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We cannot go to the school any more, Jewi.., mainly the Jewish population.

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Ah {clearing the throat} at that time the Jewish population,

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the whole city was about ah, a few thousand people,

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but a thirty percent of them was Jewish population, in the center of city.

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So, ah, {clearing the throat} after the German army took over,

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everything started to come out all kind of ah, announcements.

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Ah first announcement was that ah, Jewish kids cannot attend any more, not public school.

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And no private school, no schools.

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Also, lawyers cannot ah work as a lawyer.

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Doctors cannot work as a doctors and all kind of ah

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restrictions for, mainly for the Jewish population.

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And of course later on they start to ah start to make evacuation of Jewish people.

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And in the beginning when nobody knews, where the, the transporters are going,

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ah, ah about four kilometers ah, w.., ah, I think, north of Kraśnik was a trainstation.

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And we were always, we were communication between

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Lublin, Kraśnik and ah other cities of Poland.

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And ah when they start with, to evacuate ah Jewish people

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ah made a transports ah started just in 1941, 40, until 1940 was more or less,

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there were restrictions, but we ah could not buy many things.

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We had to go out.

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I remember I and my older sister, we used to go to the ah

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close village to, to buy some potatos or some milk.

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And you know to, to have, just because they were not ah, to buy anymore.

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We could not buy anything.

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We could not make any money to, ah so we used to go to ah,

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me and my older sister, we used to go by walking {laughing} by foot

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to the closest village to bring some ah, something to, to, to make a living {laughing}.

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And ah, but when, later on an, ah, ah, there is an another thing,

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which is very important.

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Close to Kraśnik, {clearing the throat}, a Polish ah government years before

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ah start to build up ah, ah a part of a build..,

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of a sites for security ah b.., ah outfits to build weapons or what ever for the, for the Polish army.

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That was in, they called COP, C-O-P.

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Of course ah you have to give ah, to distribute money.

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I mean, to build it up ah this ah, ah complex of, of, ah

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to build some defence means for the Polish army.

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When the German came, came, took over, they found ah a lot of equipment, very interesting equipment.

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So the, the first thing was disassembly, so people were captured on the street,

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ah, used to go at ah, my father was also a bit with them.

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Used to dismantle all the heavy equipment.

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And was shipped over to, to Germany.

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That was in, in ah, in the beginning of f.., 40, 41, main in 41.

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Ah not only this, even, they de.., they start to destruct even the buildings.

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And we, as ah workers, I mean cheap workers, Jewish people,

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were obliged to clean the stones, from the buildings to be reused again.

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All kind of work and of course ah guarded by the German army.

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Was not SS, that time was just ah Wehrmacht, no, no problem.

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And ah at the end of the day, used to come back home.

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Later on {clearing the throat} and ah, when the start, in, in, in the beginning of 1942 or end of 1943,

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they already start to evacuate people.

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Ah and a.., they mean transports, to, to, to mai.., ah the transports were {clearing the throat} brought to Belżec.

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They were already starting to, to kill by gas.

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As trucks was staying in Belżec, {clearing the throat} diesel trucks.

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And ah transport of people brought from Kraśnik and neighbourhood {clearing the throat}

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ah villiges and ah some other near cities to Kraśnik {clearing the throat} were transportet to Belżec.

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And Belżec of course, in the beginning we didn't know that,

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they were announced of course at that time it was already Judenrat in ah Kraśnik.

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And the Judenrat didn't know nothing, where the transports are ending up.

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Nobody knews about it.

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And ah, we, they start ah to investigate no signs, we don't know.

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They, they went to ah Arbeitscamp, Arbeitcamp.

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Arbeitscamp so you know ah we didn't thought, ah thought something that can be d.., something else.

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So ah, ah, after a while one transport, another transport.

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We, the community, Jewish community still were, the Judenrat

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ah hired some Polish people to follow the transport

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and where they're ending up, whether this is an Arbeitscamp,

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or what's going on with the people that's being transported?

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And they came up, they came back and reported:

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"They have been gased.

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All of them were going ah killed."

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Nobody could believe it.

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It was not, unacceptable, not believed it.

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But eventually, it was true. That was, that was of the end, 

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so by end of 1942 it was alre.., Kraśnik was already judenrein.

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Ah, ah was, most of them were already, ah, ah at that time like I said, ah

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the German start to rebuild the, the complex of that ah, ah

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ammunition or security or what ever Polish had ah planned to, to build there {clearing the throat}.

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Ah, the German ah took over again and start to rebuild everything,

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to put back in place.

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But no machinery.

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At that time the ah the f.., the firm who took over those complex,

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in near that, that place was called Budzyń.

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I have some write-up about Budzyń, if you'll be interested I will show you that to you.

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And Budzyń was a, a complex, like the Polish build it up

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and it was ah one part of, of it was ah, a complex of manufacturing.

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And another part was ah for buildings for to give, for the personnel to live.

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Ah this, this place were the, ah blocks for ah person.., personnel to live,

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they build it up a Budzyń camp, Budzyń camp.

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And the first ah to build up the camp was ah

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Jewish ah who were in the Polish army and were prisoners,

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to were still with, ah with the Mundus,

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I mean the, they were still keeping {clearing the throat}

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their cloth from the Polish army, but prisoners.

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And they build it up, the Budzyń camp.

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And ah later on, when, when ah Kraśnik was judenrein,

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who ever survived was ah, brought to Budzyń camp.

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And ah commander of that camp was ah, was called Feiks.

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Feiks was the commander of the Budzyń camp.

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Very brutal pe.., person, very brutal.

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And {clearing the throat} and we were, ah, we were brought to the Budzyń camp

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and ah we used to go every day, marching from the ah living compounds

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to the manufacture compounds, which was about four kilometers to,

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to travel, to march, you know ah marching.

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IV: To walk.

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NF: To walk, {clearing the throat}, every day by day.

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Ah that time ah who, the, ah German company who took over the, that complex was Heinkel Werke.

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Heinkel Werke Stor.., Stork, something like that.

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Ah, and they decided to build up the, a sub-assembly

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for Heinkel bomber, twin, twin bomber.

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And our part was to, to make the center section of that ah Heinkel bomber 111,

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number 111 Heinkel ah twin, twin-engine.

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But our part was just to build the center section.

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But the, ah there were only Meisters, only su.., supervisors.

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But they have to prepare people to make the job {laughing}.

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So they took out ah most of ah young people like me.

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I was at that time fourteen, fifteen years old.

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We were a group of people and ah they decided to, to give us ah Umschulung.

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Umschulung to, controlled by, by Heinkel Meisters to teach us on spot.

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And of course it, ah, they were not to polite, the Meisters and ah quite brutally as well.

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Ah, but they give us a hard way of teaching,

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{laughing} it works {laughing}, after all.

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You know the ah, they give us to make all kind of ah figures

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to cut out from sheet metal.

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Figures, or to ah file, file irons like a U or L or all kind of it.

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And, {clearing the throat} and it was always controlled.

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The Meister used to put on a piece of ah control to see, if I, if I filed it up properly.

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There is no air between them.

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And if it wasn't correctly they get, they were, we were beated, very brutally.

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And ah that it works and ah we really start to, to do the job, all kind of job.

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I mean, sheet metal work even ah soldering, all kind of soldering.

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There is some of us, we are used to solder also ah silver and gold.

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I mean to teach how to sil.., how to, to use ah, ah how,

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it was {clearing the throat} not electric ah welding, just a normal.

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And ah this was the Umschulung and half day,

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half day training and a half day working on the,

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ah on the that center section, preparing the whole, a sub-assemblies to until it get together.

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{Clearing the throat} It didn't take to long, because at that,

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it was already end of ah 1943 almost.

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It was already a, a turn over after ah, invasion to Russia and ah and after s.., ah, ah

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Stalingrad or Leningrad, after and ah start to, to be a change.

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They decided to ah to get out from Budzyń,

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because ah, ah Russian are getting more, more close to Poland.

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I mean after the turn over, what happens after Leningrad,

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they couldn't ah, they couldn't ah conquer not ah not Stalingrad, but they {clearing the throat}.

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So the Meister decided to, di.., ah how to, to save what ever has been done.

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So then, some, I don't know how was the idea,

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but ah, ah, another thing, besides ah, besides Budzyń

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Heinkel were, has two, has another site, called Mielec, also in Poland.

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Also in Mielec Heinkel was ah, had some compound

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and they did some work in Mielec, and we in Budzyń.

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We, we ma.., it was something very interconnected between Mielec and Budzyń.

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And ah when the war starts to move in more to Poland,

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ah they decided to take out everything and were and ah,

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to, to dismantle the machinery, jeeks {?} and all the other thing.

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And they said it ah was shipped over to Wieliczka.

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Wieliczka is a, a sa.., a salt mine near Krakau.

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And they were thinking that they can ah continue working for Heinkel underneath ah, ..

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IV: Ground, underground.

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NF: ..ah, under, underground and that ah, ah a salt mine.

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And also Wieliczka was a part of Plaszów.

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Plaszów, you heard about Plaszów, ja?

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You see probably the, that film?

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Ja, so Plaszów.

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And ah Wieliczka was a part of Plaszów.

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It was administrated and leaded by, by Plaszów camp.

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So ah, we were actually more pla.., more ah, ah administrative.

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We were more belonging to Plaszów than independent.

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And ah there are, ah them put me here a KL, I had you know to stitch in the KL.

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But it was, was so hurt and I, I couldn't take it {laughing}.

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So I right away I start to soak it out the, the ink.

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IV: Yeah.

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NF: I had ah some, some of w.., it was a wonder, because of that ah stick, stitches.

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Ah, but ah with the time, it disappeared, very soon.

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And ah me and a friend of mine, since we were in the m..., in the salt mine,

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we found some {clearing the throat} clothing from Polish workers.

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So, me and a friend of mine, who is no more alive, we were school boys {clearing the throat}.

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And we decided, probably we can escape.

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Ah we were, actually we were not guarded at the underground.

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When we, when we get down, downstairs,

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we had no SS, no guards, so we were thinking, we found ah civil, ah civil ah..

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IV: Cloth.

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NF: ..stuff to, from Polish workers. So, ah we, ah, we start to ask, where is the next outlet, {laughing}

218
00:19:24,667 --> 00:19:27,766
Ausfahrt for the, from that mine.

219
00:19:27,767 --> 00:19:35,366
So we found it's about up to Bochnia, almost close to Cz.., to Romanian border.

220
00:19:35,367 --> 00:19:40,999
And ah it was everything prepared for us, to es.., to try to escape.

221
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:50,132
At that time my ah friend get a, ah, sign of life from his mother.

222
00:19:50,133 --> 00:19:53,599
His mother was brought to Plaszów.

223
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,632
Plaszów was also a camp, also women and, and men.

224
00:19:57,633 --> 00:20:00,832
And he was, he starts to be ah scared.

225
00:20:00,833 --> 00:20:04,399
We are a part of Plaszów so if you will escape,

226
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,266
"Maybe they will find out and they will look after us,

227
00:20:07,267 --> 00:20:10,432
the first ah victim will be my mother."

228
00:20:10,433 --> 00:20:14,266
So ah decided not to escape.

229
00:20:14,267 --> 00:20:22,799
So, ah after this, after a while we were {clearing the throat} also, ah the ah Russian army

230
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:28,999
crossed ah the river of ah, they call it Wisla,

231
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:36,666
Wisla river, which was divided between ah, east and west of Poland.

232
00:20:36,667 --> 00:20:43,566
So when you get no.., to mo.., east of Poland.

233
00:20:43,567 --> 00:20:52,932
So they put us, take all the people out and again on, on cars on train.

234
00:20:52,933 --> 00:20:56,332
And ah we ended up at Auschwitz.

235
00:20:56,333 --> 00:21:01,632
I, we could look to the, were the closed wagons.

236
00:21:01,633 --> 00:21:05,866
I saw Auschwitz gate area in front of us.

237
00:21:05,867 --> 00:21:12,732
So we think it, ah probably we here will end up our life {laughing} {clearing the throat}.

238
00:21:12,733 --> 00:21:17,032
A.., after about 24 hours around on the Gleisen.

239
00:21:17,033 --> 00:21:19,999
We had no food, no water, nothing.

240
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:26,599
And ah trains starts to go up, to Floss, up to Floss.., we ended up to Flossenbürg.

241
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,132
IV: What time was, this was, you can remember maybe?

242
00:21:28,133 --> 00:21:34,099
NF: That, that was, yes, yes, I will, I, I {laughing} have a little bit written {laughing} down.

243
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:43,266
I get to Flossen.., July/August, July/August '44 was the first attempt to be in Flossenbürg.

244
00:21:43,267 --> 00:21:47,999
But ah when, when get to Flossenbürg, the first thing was in the quarantine.

245
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:53,666
And it was Aaa-A.., Ablosung and you know changing everything.

246
00:21:53,667 --> 00:21:58,999
Yesterday we were there so I, I get a re.., ah, reminder

247
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:04,332
after they made, ah, the first time I mean, we still have s.., a little bit hair.

248
00:22:04,333 --> 00:22:09,166
So they made you, no, they didn't cut the hair.

249
00:22:09,167 --> 00:22:10,566
They cut them in the middle..

250
00:22:10,567 --> 00:22:10,966
IV: Yeah.

251
00:22:10,967 --> 00:22:12,666
NF: ..middle of the hair.

252
00:22:12,667 --> 00:22:17,332
And ah, went in to the Ablo.., A.., Ablosung.

253
00:22:17,333 --> 00:22:21,699
And ah of course, ah to take shower.

254
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,799
So ah I looked around and I saw all the pipings, I said:

255
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:30,632
{laughing} "Well, what is going to be, ah, poison or water?" {laughing}

256
00:22:30,633 --> 00:22:38,332
But, yeah th.., warm water, we were ah, were ah, we were take showers.

257
00:22:38,333 --> 00:22:46,132
And then they give us the, the ah, ah, the special, ah, shirt,

258
00:22:46,133 --> 00:22:51,732
what they got, all with ah, with the s.., stripe, stripes.

259
00:22:51,733 --> 00:22:55,632
And ah Holla.., Holland shoes, the..

260
00:22:55,633 --> 00:22:56,332
IV: From woods?

261
00:22:56,333 --> 00:22:59,866
NF: Wood, wood shoes {laughing}, Holla.., Holland shoes we called them.

262
00:22:59,867 --> 00:23:07,266
And ah after a d.., after a few days they put us again on trucks.

263
00:23:07,267 --> 00:23:09,532
Not, not, not the whole transport.

264
00:23:09,533 --> 00:23:16,066
I was there and we were brought to Hersbruck, near Nürnberg.

265
00:23:16,067 --> 00:23:20,666
And all of a sudden we, we have to work for Hoch- and Tiefbau.

266
00:23:20,667 --> 00:23:26,566
That was ah, they builded something on the top of the hill, Hoch- und Tiefbau.

267
00:23:26,567 --> 00:23:31,232
And the, the equipment was brought by train down hill.

268
00:23:31,233 --> 00:23:35,866
So we have to off, off load all the ah equipment,

269
00:23:35,867 --> 00:23:41,599
iron, and wood thing, to carry all the way up.

270
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,032
And that was practic impossible.

271
00:23:44,033 --> 00:23:49,732
We were in no ah skinny so, no force, we couldn't,

272
00:23:49,733 --> 00:23:56,666
we couldn't climb up with a, with some loads all the way up, uphill.

273
00:23:56,667 --> 00:24:04,566
It was, tir.., it was, I was thinking that is going to be the end of my life {laughing}.

274
00:24:04,567 --> 00:24:09,999
And in, but ah, I was there in Hersbruck just a f.., short while.

275
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:14,699
And one of these days, ah, what I must say and describe

276
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:21,332
that ah besides having such a heavy work at the Hersbruck,

277
00:24:21,333 --> 00:24:26,999
but when we get back to the camp after ah day of work, the, the soup,

278
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,732
was the best soup I ever get the last few years {laughing}.

279
00:24:30,733 --> 00:24:34,666
Was with potatos and some meat even inside.

280
00:24:34,667 --> 00:24:36,566
It was something new for us {laughing}.

281
00:24:36,567 --> 00:24:45,466
Is not to see, it was a very, very hard work, but ah the food was quite suitable.

282
00:24:45,467 --> 00:24:48,932
It was, this was a surprise for us.

283
00:24:48,933 --> 00:24:54,399
Then after a while, I think it was about a week or two week being in Hersbruck.

284
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,932
And the end of the day we were already on the,

285
00:24:57,933 --> 00:25:02,532
went to, to lay down to sweet, to sleep.

286
00:25:02,533 --> 00:25:09,266
All of a sudden they put on the light in the barrack and: "Achtung, achtung!"

287
00:25:09,267 --> 00:25:13,199
And ah whenever we hear "Achtung!" we, everybody get's scared,

288
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,999
even now, if something is going to be happen {laughing}.

289
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,732
As, and ah guy ah said: ah "I will call by names.

290
00:25:22,733 --> 00:25:27,199
And everyone who has been called by name, has to step down

291
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,732
and in stay on the line between the, in the middle of the barrack."

292
00:25:32,733 --> 00:25:34,799
And they called my name too.

293
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,999
So I stepped down, I came down, I, I looked down, who, who is it?

294
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,832
What ah they are calling me?

295
00:25:42,833 --> 00:25:47,532
So I saw that, we are all the same group of ah young people

296
00:25:47,533 --> 00:25:53,332
we were at the Umschulung at the Heinkel in Poland.

297
00:25:53,333 --> 00:25:57,499
So I was ah thinking, if, if, if this is my friends of {laughing},

298
00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:00,066
so probably is not so bad {laughing}.

299
00:26:00,067 --> 00:26:07,332
So after a, they finished calling the group, they put it on ah trucks on, back to Flossenbürg.

300
00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:11,832
Back to Flossenbürg, again quarantine and you know, the Ablosung.

301
00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:14,832
And then, they send it to the barracks.

302
00:26:14,833 --> 00:26:19,699
So I was sended to barrack eleven, you know, uphill.

303
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:27,566
And in next day, me and my friend, again, we were all boys from school, school boys,

304
00:26:27,567 --> 00:26:33,832
we were ah, base, ah elementary school in Poland {clearing the throat}.

305
00:26:33,833 --> 00:26:38,666
And ah they put, they brought us to Halle 11.

306
00:26:38,667 --> 00:26:44,332
From Halle 11 was, there were, ah a ah chain of work

307
00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:52,932
building ah wings for Messerschmitt interceptor one eleven, one, one zero nine.

308
00:26:52,933 --> 00:26:55,532
That was an interceptor line.

309
00:26:55,533 --> 00:26:59,632
And they explained at us, Meisters again explained it,

310
00:26:59,633 --> 00:27:08,166
that this is {clearing the throat} a, ah, a taschmir-work, I mean every group has a certain station

311
00:27:08,167 --> 00:27:12,099
to do and has to go to move on, move on, move on.

312
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:20,299
I think it work, they work twenty-four hours non-stop, ah building, ah building the ah the wings.

313
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:28,999
But they were also in some barracks, other friends used to, to ah, to assembly ribs,

314
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:34,766
ribs for the wings, you know, ah, wing as a main bar, middle, a main bar.

315
00:27:34,767 --> 00:27:40,332
And you have ribs from a, from leading edge up to the trailing edge.

316
00:27:40,333 --> 00:27:50,899
And ah, as the main spar, ribs and then comes the to cover with this, the skin

317
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:57,732
of the wo.., of, of the ah, ah sheet metal, to cover up the, the wing.

318
00:27:57,733 --> 00:28:02,766
I'm, but the first you have to put all the little stuff in

319
00:28:02,767 --> 00:28:06,566
between the upper part, upper bar and the lower bar.

320
00:28:06,567 --> 00:28:10,899
I mean the, the, we call it leading edge.

321
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:17,532
And ah, and the end of, of the wing is called trailing edge.

322
00:28:17,533 --> 00:28:25,432
And ah my part, with my, my ah friend, we ah we used to, to make ah

323
00:28:25,433 --> 00:28:33,666
our part was to put on the first part of, of sheet metal, which covers up the wing.

324
00:28:33,667 --> 00:28:37,999
And it was the most important thing, because this was the main line

325
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:44,799
to continue the other ah, continue the type of work up ah part by part.

326
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:51,666
And of course every ah part of work was controlled of ah quality control.

327
00:28:51,667 --> 00:28:57,699
Quality control, there were inspectors, you know with, with a Vergrößerglas

328
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:03,999
to see, if the neetings {?} is proper and everything is exactly according to

329
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,532
the standard of, of, of aviation standard,

330
00:29:07,533 --> 00:29:12,566
which is very strictly and very accurate, must be accurate.

331
00:29:12,567 --> 00:29:20,066
And ah, ah my, my ah contra partner was called Pantel Grafstein,

332
00:29:20,067 --> 00:29:23,966
but two years ago, he passed away.

333
00:29:23,967 --> 00:29:32,432
So, ah and, on ah builiding the wi.., the wings, it was a lot of noise.

334
00:29:32,433 --> 00:29:43,532
You know, ah pneumatic, pneumatic ah machinery, everything was making a lot of noise

335
00:29:43,533 --> 00:29:51,932
and ah to, to make {clearing the throat} riveting, to rivet ah, the sheet metal

336
00:29:51,933 --> 00:29:55,832
into the, the wings we had to use rivets.

337
00:29:55,833 --> 00:30:04,199
The rivets is also, was everything ah, ah aluminium, all kind of aluminium.

338
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,666
And that time, the rivets has to get, before using them,

339
00:30:07,667 --> 00:30:13,932
you have to get ah, they must be ah warmed up to certain temperature,

340
00:30:13,933 --> 00:30:17,966
so you can use them and to make proper neeting.

341
00:30:17,967 --> 00:30:21,499
Ah for this we had always ah hi.., helper.

342
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:27,899
We explained them exactly what kind of Niets {?} he hads to beat for each part of work

343
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:36,666
and ah to have the proper, to get it out from the, it was a supply ah in the store.

344
00:30:36,667 --> 00:30:43,266
Ah I had to ask for niets, to, to niet this part of doing or the other part of doing,

345
00:30:43,267 --> 00:30:53,132
was different, lend different ah, in, ah, ah the way of ah thickness and so far.

346
00:30:53,133 --> 00:31:00,666
So, we always had ah a helper to bring us the necessary parts, to continue our work.

347
00:31:00,667 --> 00:31:08,032
So in the beginning, you know, in Flossenbürg was a mixed kind of people.

348
00:31:08,033 --> 00:31:15,066
Ah there were Jews, there were criminals, German criminals, there were Zigeuners, cyganiec.

349
00:31:15,067 --> 00:31:19,332
Ah there were ah Russian prisoners, military prisoners.

350
00:31:19,333 --> 00:31:23,666
There were a bunch of ah Polish army.

351
00:31:23,667 --> 00:31:29,166
Ah I think there were about fifteen to twenty-thousand people here in Flossenbürg.

352
00:31:29,167 --> 00:31:36,466
So, in the beginning we get an officer, a Polish officer ah, from the, a prisoner from Polish armia.

353
00:31:36,467 --> 00:31:39,566
How he get there, I don't know {laughing} until today.

354
00:31:39,567 --> 00:31:43,666
But he was quite an, a older person.

355
00:31:43,667 --> 00:31:47,332
And ah, he was very kind to us.

356
00:31:47,333 --> 00:31:51,999
He understand what we need, he understand the pressure of work,

357
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:56,432
I mean, to do the work in time and correctly.

358
00:31:56,433 --> 00:32:00,999
And he understand it and he was quite good to us.

359
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:05,699
But ah there, there were some days he was sick or he didn't come,

360
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:13,199
so they give us a guy who was a gy.., an a German gypcian, ah deutsche Zigeuner.

361
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,832
A deutsche Zigeuner, a young boy and he was hundred prozent different from the Polish.

362
00:32:18,833 --> 00:32:22,866
He was a lazy, and not understanding.

363
00:32:22,867 --> 00:32:26,532
He always burned up, we need a twenty millimeters niet,

364
00:32:26,533 --> 00:32:28,866
he was bringing, I got twenty millimeter.

365
00:32:28,867 --> 00:32:36,932
We need a screw of one quarter, he was broughting it awfully.

366
00:32:36,933 --> 00:32:42,299
But we could not talk, because too much noise was in there, in there, Halle 11.

367
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,799
A lot of pneumatic ah equipment was ah working them.

368
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:52,332
So, you know that to, to explain him, that he did wrong, so, we get there a, a piece of iron,

369
00:32:52,333 --> 00:32:58,932
you know, when you rivet, ah rivet you have a, ah, revolver of riveting

370
00:32:58,933 --> 00:33:05,766
and the other side is a, you have to keep it with the bar, ah, ah iron bar, to make the rivet proper head.

371
00:33:05,767 --> 00:33:10,466
So we used to drop him the, the, the b.., the iron bar on his legs.

372
00:33:10,467 --> 00:33:14,999
And he was {laughing} jumped.

373
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,432
And ah until, we had a lot of problems, with that, with the gypsy boy.

374
00:33:19,433 --> 00:33:25,066
A young boy, but it was a lazy and he didn't understand too much about what we need.

375
00:33:25,067 --> 00:33:29,232
I don't know how he get there, but lot, lot of gypsys were there.

376
00:33:29,233 --> 00:33:34,699
You know, there are every kind of person.., personality were here, they have a different..

377
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:35,599
IV: Triangle..

378
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:40,766
NF: ..triangle. I mean like, Verbrechers was the triangle down I think.

379
00:33:40,767 --> 00:33:47,132
Some of the, I get a triangle up and a different colour, all kind {laughing}.

380
00:33:47,133 --> 00:33:53,932
And ah, what I want to understre.., to stress out, {clearing the throat}

381
00:33:53,933 --> 00:33:59,666
when we start to evac.., ah, evacuate, ah, Flossenbürg to the Steinbruch,

382
00:33:59,667 --> 00:34:02,599
at Steinbruch was there already a train waiting for us.

383
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:09,232
When they decided to, to depart, I mean to evacuate Flossenbürg.

384
00:34:09,233 --> 00:34:14,266
They hadn't got enough guards, to keep, to, to guard the whole, ah,

385
00:34:14,267 --> 00:34:19,699
ah, so many people out from Flossenbürg up to the Steinbruch.

386
00:34:19,700 --> 00:34:25,266
So they mobilized all the German Verbrechers, all kind of ah criminals.

387
00:34:25,267 --> 00:34:31,766
They give them na, ah, they give them, all of a sudden they were welcome to the German {laughing} German army.

388
00:34:31,767 --> 00:34:37,999
And they give them ah, ah rifles to guard, and the same die deutsche Zigeuners.

389
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,466
There were a lot of deutsche Zigeuners there.

390
00:34:40,467 --> 00:34:43,899
And they give them rifles to guard the, the convoys.

391
00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:47,499
And this guy get also a rifle.

392
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:54,966
And when we start the, the death march out from Schwarzenfeld, he was guarding us.

393
00:34:54,967 --> 00:35:02,166
And he was looking in, who ever fell, could not ah continue run.., ah going, was killed on spot.

394
00:35:02,167 --> 00:35:03,632
He said: "I will kill you."

395
00:35:03,633 --> 00:35:05,899
Me and my friend.

396
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:11,132
And he was always ah trying to be close to us, when we were marching.

397
00:35:11,133 --> 00:35:13,532
This is a part of it {laughing}, okay.

398
00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:16,866
Now, going back to, to Flossenbürg at the time,

399
00:35:16,867 --> 00:35:19,866
when we were here looking at him.

400
00:35:19,867 --> 00:35:25,066
Ah so, the work in Halle 11 was actually,

401
00:35:25,067 --> 00:35:29,099
except, I mean, ah, I used to, me and my friend,

402
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:32,899
ah we made a good, ah sometimes we did a good job.

403
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:40,866
And sometimes we have to help other stations ah were holding up, for, for some reasons.

404
00:35:40,867 --> 00:35:43,466
And so, they always called me and my friend

405
00:35:43,467 --> 00:35:46,499
to take over to see, where the problem is.

406
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:51,332
And try to fix it so the, the Taschmik and move on.

407
00:35:51,333 --> 00:35:54,099
I mean it like a Taschmik work.

408
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:57,099
You know, like going round.

409
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:58,666
IV: Ja. Ja.

410
00:35:58,667 --> 00:36:03,999
NF: And ah, when we did a good job, we used to get some awards.

411
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,166
The award was ah a piece of paper.

412
00:36:07,167 --> 00:36:09,999
There were a cantine, a cantine in Flossenbürg,

413
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,332
only on Sundays I think afternoon they used to open it

414
00:36:14,333 --> 00:36:22,266
and ah, the only thing, what I know, you could have take for the award, was chewing gum.

415
00:36:22,267 --> 00:36:25,766
Chewing gum and probably some, I don't remember some other things.

416
00:36:25,767 --> 00:36:32,166
But chewing gum was very popular and the Russian ah prisoners they were crazy about it.

417
00:36:32,167 --> 00:36:36,899
So they always come and down and ah changing.

418
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,299
I used to give them the chewing gum and I {laughing} and they give me

419
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,199
or bread or soup or what ever they got in extra.

420
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,066
So we changed over.

421
00:36:46,067 --> 00:36:47,232
They call it: "Machnem."

422
00:36:47,233 --> 00:36:51,932
Machnem in Russian means, let's change it {laughing}.

423
00:36:51,933 --> 00:36:54,566
So that was ah one part of ah Flossenbürg.

424
00:36:54,567 --> 00:36:57,699
And ah, I mean, but I remember it quite ah well.

425
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:03,932
And the other part was on the appell, appell ah platz, Appellplatz.

426
00:37:03,933 --> 00:37:09,932
Every Sunday was ah, they performed a, a concert between eleven and twelve o'clock.

427
00:37:09,933 --> 00:37:15,532
It was a music concert and ah we were uphill on the, the barracks.

428
00:37:15,533 --> 00:37:19,866
And they looking down and it was, you know, like

429
00:37:19,867 --> 00:37:26,332
ta.., taking, satting ah sitting down and look on orchester when they used to play.

430
00:37:26,333 --> 00:37:31,032
And some, some kind of I would say enjoying to hear it.

431
00:37:31,033 --> 00:37:39,432
But ah, when the a.., ah, when the Ameri.., the allied forces from America already starts from

432
00:37:39,433 --> 00:37:50,099
Belgium, France going into, into Germany and ah s.., one day I saw ah some spitfire

433
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:52,999
or mustang airplane used to fly over.

434
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:59,732
They didn't attack it, ah Flossen.., but only they fly o.., they flight over ah Flossenburg

435
00:37:59,733 --> 00:38:03,132
and all the musicians {laughing} runed away {laughing}.

436
00:38:03,133 --> 00:38:12,899
Yeah, the whole concert, in, in, the concert was more for the ah, ah German, ah administrative,

437
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:17,799
there were a lot of, lot of ah, administrative holding that camp.

438
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,966
And everybody was running away.

439
00:38:19,967 --> 00:38:26,432
I mean the concert was mainly for them, not, not for the, not for the ah Häftlinge {laughing}.

440
00:38:26,433 --> 00:38:30,699
And ah I was so happy to see it, I first Klatschen,

441
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:33,432
see ah that everybody escaped to Flossenburg.

442
00:38:33,433 --> 00:38:38,499
This is some kind, you know, which always you remember it {laughing}.

443
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:52,332
And ah I'd, I and now ah at 23rd of April they start to evac.., ah evacuate the Flossenbürg, out of Flossenbürg.

444
00:38:52,333 --> 00:38:59,832
Ah right, I think, right in the afternoon, they announce it that we are going to be evacuated

445
00:38:59,833 --> 00:39:05,799
and ah, they will bring us to, to the Steinbruck area, where the train station.

446
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,899
And there is arleady trains are waiting for us.

447
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:12,199
And we will have to get there.

448
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:17,432
And ah my group, we were almost, was almost, almost midnight

449
00:39:17,433 --> 00:39:21,299
when we start to move out from Flossenbürg to the Steinbruck.

450
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:26,232
It would be loaded on the, on the train.

451
00:39:26,233 --> 00:39:29,932
So it was almost qui.., quite dark and everything.

452
00:39:29,933 --> 00:39:34,432
So by luck I was put on, on a open wagen.

453
00:39:34,433 --> 00:39:39,666
Because the ah, on the beginning it was a, a long, long train,

454
00:39:39,667 --> 00:39:43,099
with two locomotives, one in the front, one the rear.

455
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,532
A very long one, most of the wagons were closed,

456
00:39:46,533 --> 00:39:48,999
but some of them were also open.

457
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,799
Ah, I was lucky and I was in an open ah wagon.

458
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,199
And of course get.., in, in ah, in every wa.., in every open wagon

459
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,732
was about three or four SS man, guarding us.

460
00:40:03,733 --> 00:40:10,799
And every SS man has a, ah Rucksack with some ah, ah surviving equipment,

461
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:16,799
like bread, or what ever it is, because I understand later on that we were,

462
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,732
ah that the destination was to bring us to Buchenwald.

463
00:40:19,733 --> 00:40:24,732
That was ah the main ah purpose, to bring us there.

464
00:40:24,733 --> 00:40:32,699
And ah, we just start to, the train starts to move.

465
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:36,732
I think we moved from here up to Schwarzenfeld, that, that's about ah

466
00:40:36,733 --> 00:40:40,932
half an hour drive or something, it'is not too far.

467
00:40:40,933 --> 00:40:46,432
In Schwarzenfeld ah we were attacked, an awful attack.

468
00:40:46,433 --> 00:40:49,566
Because they were sure that it's a military convoy,

469
00:40:49,567 --> 00:40:52,066
such a long convoy, two locomotives.

470
00:40:52,067 --> 00:40:57,832
So and they attacked the, the, the most, the most casualties,

471
00:40:57,833 --> 00:40:59,999
the most, it was on the, the closed,

472
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,166
on the closed ah wagons, they could not escape.

473
00:41:03,167 --> 00:41:06,999
They were like in a cage.

474
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,999
I was, the open wagons, everybody, SS escaped and we escaped.

475
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,699
All of us escaped {laughing}.

476
00:41:13,700 --> 00:41:17,999
We didn't run away to far, ah, escaped the, that far, to, to the bush.

477
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,099
There, there, there a lot of trees over there.

478
00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:22,699
We didn't know, where to go {laughing}.

479
00:41:22,700 --> 00:41:29,699
So we runed out from diese, from the wagon, and not far away.

480
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:35,032
But ah, some of, some of our people, of our Häftlinge,

481
00:41:35,033 --> 00:41:41,299
when the SS runed away, but the rucksack with the, with the food equ..,

482
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:43,166
with some kind of food inside,

483
00:41:43,167 --> 00:41:47,366
they start to open the, the hocks.., the rucksacks with the food

484
00:41:47,367 --> 00:41:50,666
and start to, start to eat.

485
00:41:50,667 --> 00:41:53,566
And they were all of, we were all hungry {laughing}.

486
00:41:53,567 --> 00:41:56,499
We have nothing, not in the day of, of the evauca..,

487
00:41:56,500 --> 00:42:02,666
ah, when we were evacuated, there was no more, ah, no more food.

488
00:42:02,667 --> 00:42:05,299
Kitchen didn't work any more {laughing}.

489
00:42:05,300 --> 00:42:09,932
And ah, when the SS come back and they saw that the,

490
00:42:09,933 --> 00:42:17,832
that they lost from their food, one by one they were killed, one by one.

491
00:42:17,833 --> 00:42:23,266
It was an, ah, I, I cannot get rid of that picture I saw.

492
00:42:23,267 --> 00:42:28,399
Two people were fighting of a piece of a bread.

493
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,532
Two people were fighting, I mean, to, to share the bread.

494
00:42:32,533 --> 00:42:36,066
And then g.., one of them that gave, gave up.

495
00:42:36,067 --> 00:42:42,999
And the SS-Mann, the SS-Mann saw it, so, with o.., with one bullet they killed both of them.

496
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:47,499
Everybody, whoever ah had something from the, from the food

497
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:51,099
from the guards, were killed on spot.

498
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:55,199
It was a massacre in Schwarzenfeld,

499
00:42:55,200 --> 00:43:01,299
thousands from the, from the closed wagons and from the SS

500
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:10,132
killed people who robbed their, their food {breathing}.

501
00:43:10,133 --> 00:43:15,499
Later on, {clearing the throat} in the afternoon, they started that we ki..,

502
00:43:15,500 --> 00:43:20,766
since we cannot be transported by, by means of train.

503
00:43:20,767 --> 00:43:22,599
So we will have to make ah, a march.

504
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,166
We will be marching to, to Buchenwald.

505
00:43:27,167 --> 00:43:30,366
But even to march Buchenwald, they decided they have,

506
00:43:30,367 --> 00:43:36,866
they make, probably not everybody can, can join, can, can participate.

507
00:43:36,867 --> 00:43:43,766
So the only, the only way to, to know who can be taken to the march,

508
00:43:43,767 --> 00:43:51,866
was ah to get part of ah, ah, was a, a, I think a, ah rampa.

509
00:43:51,867 --> 00:43:56,966
Was a like a pace.., ah paved, paved area.

510
00:43:56,967 --> 00:44:01,532
And they give us about ah fifty or hundred meters to run.

511
00:44:01,533 --> 00:44:07,666
If you could run ah that part of ah test, rechts.

512
00:44:07,667 --> 00:44:09,499
Who cannot run links.

513
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:11,999
So, they make some kind of selection.

514
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:21,099
And ah I, I was lucky {laughing}, I was still in, in ah, a good shape, more or less, considerable.

515
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:25,132
And ah I was on the part to go on the death marsch.

516
00:44:25,133 --> 00:44:27,066
And we start to march.

517
00:44:27,067 --> 00:44:31,966
We were marching, we were until the, until from the 15,

518
00:44:31,967 --> 00:44:36,966
from 15 of April or 16 of April actually it was already next day.

519
00:44:36,967 --> 00:44:40,299
From 16 of April until the 23rd of April

520
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:45,432
when ah American army released us in Stamsried.

521
00:44:45,433 --> 00:44:48,899
We were li.., liberated in Stamsried.

522
00:44:48,900 --> 00:44:56,166
Because we were marching, only ah we could have march ah in the afternoon, afternoon.

523
00:44:56,167 --> 00:45:02,932
And in the evening we were always, ah we were parking some, near to a bush.

524
00:45:02,933 --> 00:45:12,399
And sometimes they brought us ah from the villages around, some potatos, warm potatos and sometimes nothing.

525
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:19,799
But this, we were on the, on the way from the day of ev.., evacuation of Flossenbürg

526
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:25,166
until we were liberated in the 23rd of April 1945.

527
00:45:25,167 --> 00:45:31,599
That was, ah we were ah almost eight days with actually no food {laughing},

528
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:39,466
no wo.., ah food, ah potato here potato there and some water, sometimes yes, sometimes no.

529
00:45:39,467 --> 00:45:46,732
And they used always to take some, ah some people of us to a certain village around where we were parking,

530
00:45:46,733 --> 00:45:49,966
to see, if we can get something from the farmers.

531
00:45:49,967 --> 00:45:53,999
Mainly, all the area is more, farmers {clearing the throat}.

532
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:59,332
So, on the farmers, someone, some of them give something for and sometime not.

533
00:45:59,333 --> 00:46:07,532
But this was the only, the only food they could have get is a warm potato and sometimes some water {laughing}.

534
00:46:07,533 --> 00:46:14,432
Until the, and when we, when we get to Stamsried the day before,

535
00:46:14,433 --> 00:46:19,332
and they brought us into, you know where they keep the straw,

536
00:46:19,333 --> 00:46:23,766
straw and all other equipment for them {clearing the throat}.

537
00:46:23,767 --> 00:46:27,332
It was brought to a little czos {?} in straw {clearing the throat}.

538
00:46:27,333 --> 00:46:29,899
I saw ah, part of straw, I laid down.

539
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:35,166
I couldn't, there were a little {clearing the throat} passage, you know, from the rain,

540
00:46:35,167 --> 00:46:41,432
was a little ah, ah, ah gruve {?}, of about thirty centimeter.

541
00:46:41,433 --> 00:46:45,799
I couldn't make it, because I was already from here swollen up.

542
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:52,166
I couldn't, swollen, I was almost on, ah, to, {laughing} I couldn't con.., continue.

543
00:46:52,167 --> 00:46:59,199
If we have to go ah one day more, I would not, I would not make it, for sure {clearing the throat}.

544
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,332
And ah I lay down and I fell asleep.

545
00:47:03,333 --> 00:47:09,332
And next in the morning about ah it was almost about ten, eleven.

546
00:47:09,333 --> 00:47:15,732
And we suddenly heared: "Ah, jaaa, we are relieved, we are liberated, we are liberated, no SS, no."

547
00:47:15,733 --> 00:47:21,066
American tanks {laughing} already approached to us.

548
00:47:21,067 --> 00:47:23,932
I don't know how come they get to Stamsried.

549
00:47:23,933 --> 00:47:26,966
because there was, it was not a highway.

550
00:47:26,967 --> 00:47:32,199
They, they, they, the allied forces, the American forces,

551
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:41,866
they were ah moving on the highways, but not, not, not on ah, not on a little way like Stamsried.

552
00:47:41,867 --> 00:47:48,132
So we found out that ah, they discovered a lot of groups dead, dead people on,

553
00:47:48,133 --> 00:47:53,766
beside this, beside ah, the, ah beside the road.

554
00:47:53,767 --> 00:47:59,666
And there were ah, they were ah informing the ah along this,

555
00:47:59,667 --> 00:48:03,366
along the road there is a lot of ah dead people.

556
00:48:03,367 --> 00:48:04,866
What, what to do?

557
00:48:04,867 --> 00:48:11,432
So, so some part of the, of the American army, I don't know which, which member of the army

558
00:48:11,433 --> 00:48:17,899
was ah the, was quite a big, a big ah convoy of, of American troops.

559
00:48:17,900 --> 00:48:24,999
And they send them to follow that ah, s.., that ah road which leads to Stamsried.

560
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,599
And there, we were released and then they found out,

561
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:36,399
why there're so many dead groups ar.., along the road, they are finding.

562
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,032
IV: Yeah, so let's make a little break.

563
00:48:38,033 --> 00:48:38,466
NF: Yes.

564
00:48:38,467 --> 00:48:42,099
IV: This day of liberation, if you want to drink something, perhaps..?

565
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:43,832
NF: Ah, ah, yes, okay, danke.

566
00:48:43,833 --> 00:48:51,266
IV: ..it helps your voice a little bit {clearing the throat}.

567
00:48:51,267 --> 00:48:53,599
NF: {clearing the throat} Thank you.

568
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:55,699
IV: So maybe, maybe I ask some questions.

569
00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:56,666
NF: Yes, please.

570
00:48:56,667 --> 00:48:57,632
IV: Before going on.

571
00:48:57,633 --> 00:48:58,099
NF: Ja.

572
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:01,299
IV: So, what about you in these years, what about your family?

573
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:02,999
You didn't mention your family anymore.

574
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,166
You just told your own story.

575
00:49:05,167 --> 00:49:06,166
What happened to your family?

576
00:49:06,167 --> 00:49:17,032
NF: {clearing the throat} {breathing strongly} My family is ah like I said before, I think I mentioned that my father was killed in Budzyń?

577
00:49:17,033 --> 00:49:18,299
Did I mention it?

578
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:18,666
IV: No. No.

579
00:49:18,667 --> 00:49:29,966
NF: No? {clearing the throat} That was {clearing the throat} in ah September '42, was already, Kraśnik was "judenrein".

580
00:49:29,967 --> 00:49:32,899
What does it mean "judenrein"?

581
00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:44,632
They stopped ah transporting to Belżec. But the, most of the ah mainly people ah were brought to Budzyń camp.

582
00:49:44,633 --> 00:49:54,199
And also, there was a little ghetto also, ah, around the ah Jewish synagoge in Kraśnik city.

583
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,832
So there were a little, they call it ah, ghetto.

584
00:49:59,833 --> 00:50:03,099
But from the ghetto, it was a part of Budzyń.

585
00:50:03,100 --> 00:50:04,999
They were not independent.

586
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,599
It was a part of Budzyń complex.

587
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:14,566
Ah, ah mein father was already kept to Budzyń, because he was all, practic.., every second day

588
00:50:14,567 --> 00:50:21,566
he was catched to, to do some work for the, ah, for the a.., for the Wehrmacht.

589
00:50:21,567 --> 00:50:24,999
And ah and then it was already "judenrein".

590
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,466
We were already closed in Budzyń camp.

591
00:50:27,467 --> 00:50:36,099
Budzyń camp was already established and they brought ah remaining Jews from Kraśnik to Budzyń.

592
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:44,766
And also from neighbour villages where some Jewish families, Jewish people living around ah around Kraśnik.

593
00:50:44,767 --> 00:50:49,999
So Budzyń was ah, I have some write-up, but probably I can hand it over to you,

594
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,532
if you are interested about it.

595
00:50:52,533 --> 00:50:55,999
Or about Budzyń, what happens to Budzyń.

596
00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:01,832
And ah of course I was with ah, with my father quite a short while.

597
00:51:01,833 --> 00:51:07,166
And ah like I said, did I mention that was a selection one day?

598
00:51:07,167 --> 00:51:14,732
Feiks, yeah? Feiks close the main, I mean before going to the compound of work

599
00:51:14,733 --> 00:51:20,732
for Heinkel, they ah, they decided to make a Gänsenmarsch.

600
00:51:20,733 --> 00:51:23,732
A Gänsemarsch means one after the other.

601
00:51:23,733 --> 00:51:31,332
And going through out to the por.., main port of, of Budzyń, ah, ah of Budzyń camp.

602
00:51:31,333 --> 00:51:35,932
And ah Feiks was there: "Links, rechts, links, rechts, links, rechts."

603
00:51:35,933 --> 00:51:39,199
I was going rechts and my father was going links.

604
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:50,766
And ah, whoever went rechts, again putting on ah, on five, five, five, five groups.

605
00:51:50,767 --> 00:51:57,432
And start to march to, to the compound of Heinkel, to, to Heinkel work.

606
00:51:57,433 --> 00:52:05,232
And ah the moment we start to, to, to march we already hear a lot of firings, shootings.

607
00:52:05,233 --> 00:52:07,632
We didn't know nothing about it.

608
00:52:07,633 --> 00:52:13,866
But ah at the end of the day, when I came back, I saw my father is not there.

609
00:52:13,867 --> 00:52:16,466
Where is my father, start to ask, where is my father?

610
00:52:16,467 --> 00:52:23,299
He said, so they told ah, they told me that there, the all, who went on the selection

611
00:52:23,300 --> 00:52:29,532
went left, they more about a hundred and fifty people were killed.

612
00:52:29,533 --> 00:52:30,566
More than that.

613
00:52:30,567 --> 00:52:38,332
A day before, they prepared a hole, right at, end of the, of the camp, of Budzyń camp.

614
00:52:38,333 --> 00:52:43,966
Nobody knows for ah people who were making the hole, digging out.

615
00:52:43,967 --> 00:52:50,999
And ah this hole was already, a hundred and fifty people were called, only from that selection.

616
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,932
And my father was there.

617
00:52:52,933 --> 00:52:55,232
So I lost my father at this time.

618
00:52:55,233 --> 00:53:01,766
That was in September 1942 {clearing the throat}.

619
00:53:01,767 --> 00:53:06,032
This is ah, all of a sudden I was alone.

620
00:53:06,033 --> 00:53:11,099
Well, I was asking, I wish, I would be there.

621
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:20,999
And ah, my f.., my mother, ah, my older sister, when {clearing the throat}, when it tra..,

622
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,732
when they start to make this transports to Belżec,

623
00:53:24,733 --> 00:53:30,332
so we decided, we had some connections, we had some family in, in, ah, Lublin,

624
00:53:30,333 --> 00:53:36,032
so we decided to prepare Irish {means: arisch} documents for my eldest sister

625
00:53:36,033 --> 00:53:42,132
that ah she is no more Jewish, she is now being Christian.

626
00:53:42,133 --> 00:53:50,266
And ah she got Christian documents for them and ah was in Lublin.

627
00:53:50,267 --> 00:53:53,899
But she, she had a Jewish face.

628
00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:55,932
It was easy to recognize it.

629
00:53:55,933 --> 00:54:00,466
So it looks like, a lo.., I don't know when and how?

630
00:54:00,467 --> 00:54:03,866
Because I had no connections with her, but later on I di..,

631
00:54:03,867 --> 00:54:10,799
I was told from somebody who, who was in, in, in Majdanek, Lublin Majdanek {clearing the throat}.

632
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:16,666
So she was captured and ah and put into the camp, Majdanek camp.

633
00:54:16,667 --> 00:54:20,332
And there, the, she was (???) in Majdanek.

634
00:54:20,333 --> 00:54:27,499
I don't know at, when, any, I had no connection with her at all.

635
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:33,199
But I know that she di.., she di.., she was (???) in Majdanek.

636
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:34,432
You heard about Majdanek?

637
00:54:34,433 --> 00:54:34,699
IV: Yes, of course.

638
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:37,699
NF: Ja, ah, near Lublin.

639
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:44,299
And ah besides that, when we prepared, when my parents prepared the papers

640
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:50,499
for my older sister, {clearing the throat} my father said: "If somebody will survive..",

641
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:52,466
we know, ah, what's going on.

642
00:54:52,467 --> 00:54:58,266
That it's ah, Jewish people, who knows, if who will survive and when.

643
00:54:58,267 --> 00:55:02,099
But whoever will survive you have to meet back at home city.

644
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:04,199
Kraśnik is our home city.

645
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,799
And if somebody will survive, here is the place, we have to get back.

646
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:14,466
That was in my mind, you know in my conscious.

647
00:55:14,467 --> 00:55:18,932
At the moment, I hear, when I was released from Stamsried.

648
00:55:18,933 --> 00:55:25,332
und then I went to Neunburg and I was a little bit more recovered, ah,

649
00:55:25,333 --> 00:55:32,632
the Jewish Joints start to already collect people who needs ah hospitalizing, who needs ah,

650
00:55:32,633 --> 00:55:37,666
help who, and who needs to continue ah studying and everything.

651
00:55:37,667 --> 00:55:43,766
So, some of ah, our surroundings, some of them went,

652
00:55:43,767 --> 00:55:46,699
ah and some of them was also in, in Indersdorf.

653
00:55:46,700 --> 00:55:47,266
IV:  Indersdorf.

654
00:55:47,267 --> 00:55:48,966
NF: Indersdorf as well.

655
00:55:48,967 --> 00:55:53,632
I didn't went to Indersdorf, because my target was to go back to Poland.

656
00:55:53,633 --> 00:55:57,532
I said, I go at the moment I will be a little bit recovered

657
00:55:57,533 --> 00:56:02,666
and I will be feeling ah no.., more or less normal.

658
00:56:02,667 --> 00:56:04,666
I'm going back to Poland.

659
00:56:04,667 --> 00:56:09,666
So I didn't wan.., so ah, they asked me: "Would you like to go to London?

660
00:56:09,667 --> 00:56:11,799
You would continue there your school.

661
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,666
You were, you use, you didn't fini..",

662
00:56:13,667 --> 00:56:15,832
ah practically I didn't finish high school.

663
00:56:15,833 --> 00:56:19,232
I didn't even start high school.

664
00:56:19,233 --> 00:56:23,066
"Ah, or, oh, to Sweden, wherever you ah, wherever you want."

665
00:56:23,067 --> 00:56:29,299
I said: "No, my target is now, first I have go back to Poland."

666
00:56:29,300 --> 00:56:33,399
I went back to Poland with my, with a friend of mine.

667
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:39,566
We were two of us and ah of course we didn't find nobody there.

668
00:56:39,567 --> 00:56:46,766
But it, it was something more which ah want ah was in my conscious to go back to Poland is,

669
00:56:46,767 --> 00:56:57,566
ah my father's parents, my, my grandparents, they passed away when my, when my father was still bachelor.

670
00:56:57,567 --> 00:57:06,099
And ah at that time, or when, when the German already ah controlled Kraśnik,

671
00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:16,032
they start to take out the stones from the graves and making ah sideways in Kraśnik city.

672
00:57:16,033 --> 00:57:18,099
It wasn't so developed.

673
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:25,299
So ah, ah my father was very scared of the stones of his parents' grave,

674
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:28,666
so one day, very early in the morning, we went up to the cemetery.

675
00:57:28,667 --> 00:57:33,666
We opened the grave and layed down the stones and put it back with, ah,

676
00:57:33,667 --> 00:57:36,799
I mean, not to see any stone at all.

677
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:42,999
So I said: "If I will be back in Poland, I will try to, to go to cemetery

678
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:51,099
and probably I can rea.., restore graves of my grandparents!"

679
00:57:51,100 --> 00:57:56,032
And, so these two motives brought me to go back to Poland.

680
00:57:56,033 --> 00:58:03,399
First thing to, to survi.., as a survivor to meet somebody which I knew nobody is there,

681
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:10,832
but still conscious, I feel an obligation ah an moral obligation to get back and to see.

682
00:58:10,833 --> 00:58:19,966
And also to restore probably the graves of my ah, of, of my father's pa.., ah parents.

683
00:58:19,967 --> 00:58:23,599
But of course, I mean, nobody were there except me.

684
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:28,432
And also, when I get up to the cemetery, nothing was found.

685
00:58:28,433 --> 00:58:33,766
It was already it, it, it was already ah, agricultured.

686
00:58:33,767 --> 00:58:40,299
I mean the Polish ah farmers took over that area start to grow things.

687
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:46,399
I could find a piece of stone here, there, you know, some signs.

688
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,299
But not stones and I could not see any graves.

689
00:58:50,300 --> 00:58:53,166
You could not recognize any grave at all.

690
00:58:53,167 --> 00:59:00,566
And this was the same thing, we went ah, I want to take my wife and my and son and,

691
00:59:00,567 --> 00:59:05,666
I got two kids, son and ah, and a daughter.

692
00:59:05,667 --> 00:59:11,166
And we went there, ah three, three years ago.

693
00:59:11,167 --> 00:59:14,966
I want them to see my homeland {laughing}, you know, where I was born,

694
00:59:14,967 --> 00:59:19,532
where I was ah, where, where my, my kinderhood.

695
00:59:19,533 --> 00:59:20,066
IV: Ja.

696
00:59:20,067 --> 00:59:23,132
NF: {clearing the throat} And I showed them all this ah.

697
00:59:23,133 --> 00:59:25,299
We went once again to the cemetery.

698
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:28,332
But still, nothing was found there.

699
00:59:28,333 --> 00:59:33,466
Then ah I decided to go back to, I want to go to Israel.

700
00:59:33,467 --> 00:59:38,999
Because {clearing the throat} my, two sisters of my father were already,

701
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:44,499
went to Israel in the 20ies, 1922 or 3.

702
00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:50,499
And very early in the 20ies they went out from Kraśnik, Poland to Israel.

703
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:55,666
And we know, we know them, because of one of, of ah his sisters

704
00:59:55,667 --> 01:00:00,566
visit us in 1948 {means: 1938}, a year before the war breaked out.

705
01:00:00,567 --> 01:00:07,332
So I, so I ah I wanted to give them a sign that I'm, that I'm a survivor.

706
01:00:07,333 --> 01:00:10,232
So I, I want to go back to, to Germany.

707
01:00:10,233 --> 01:00:17,532
From Germany, to try to go to Israel, legal or illegal whatever it is {clearing the throat}.

708
01:00:17,533 --> 01:00:24,099
And ah so after being, I was on, in Poland about two weeks maximum.

709
01:00:24,100 --> 01:00:32,032
Because I was already ah at the time, when I passed the border to, from Czechoslovakia to Poland

710
01:00:32,033 --> 01:00:40,732
at the border they saw that I'm already almost eighteen, so I have to, to join the Polish army.

711
01:00:40,733 --> 01:00:42,999
So they applied me the, all the documents:

712
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:49,032
"When you get to Lublin, you have to, to go, to register fill out, fill out the forms.

713
01:00:49,033 --> 01:00:53,666
And they will call you then to come to make ah in the, in the Polish army."

714
01:00:53,667 --> 01:00:56,566
That was the last thing, I was thinking about it {laughing}.

715
01:00:56,567 --> 01:01:06,732
So, of course, I, I, I didn't use it, tho.., those papers at all, nothing and ah and one day

716
01:01:06,733 --> 01:01:11,566
I was on the train between Kraśnik and Lublin, there were a control on the train.

717
01:01:11,567 --> 01:01:17,066
They ask for documents, they come up and I, the only documents I had was the,

718
01:01:17,067 --> 01:01:23,799
the forms I got at the, at the border, as, as coming back to homeland.

719
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:30,666
And ah they control and said: "You know, you have only two days more days to go to {laughing},

720
01:01:30,667 --> 01:01:35,266
to, to apply the, the forms and to join the probably to the Polish army."

721
01:01:35,267 --> 01:01:36,999
I said: "Yes, yes, yes."

722
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,399
And I went all the way back to Germany.

723
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:40,299
So I get...

724
01:01:40,300 --> 01:01:44,466
IV: Did you get any informations there what happened to your mother?

725
01:01:44,467 --> 01:01:55,432
NF: Yes, I told you that the {breathing strongly} {clearing the throat} that was the first information that we got, that ah Belżec is no camp.

726
01:01:55,433 --> 01:01:57,999
It's just a, a death place.

727
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:04,266
Every transport to get to ah, to Belżec in the same day were all gased.

728
01:02:04,267 --> 01:02:08,299
All the people was gased by ah diesel trucks.

729
01:02:08,300 --> 01:02:10,166
Were a lot of diesel trucks there.

730
01:02:10,167 --> 01:02:12,699
And everybody was just ga..

731
01:02:12,700 --> 01:02:17,066
So my ah, my mother and my youngest sister, they were together.

732
01:02:17,067 --> 01:02:20,532
And they were (???) of, in, in Belżec.

733
01:02:20,533 --> 01:02:22,466
IV: You didn't mention it before.

734
01:02:22,467 --> 01:02:23,932
So, that's why I asked it.

735
01:02:23,933 --> 01:02:23,432
You've just mentioned the cars, but not.

736
01:02:23,433 --> 01:02:27,099
NF: Ah, I didn't mention it. Yeah, ja.

737
01:02:27,100 --> 01:02:32,799
Ah, yes, my, my mother, my mother, my youngest sister was there at the, at this transport.

738
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:38,466
It was actually the last transport out from Kraśnik were sent to, to Belżec.

739
01:02:38,467 --> 01:02:44,666
Because later on was already in Budzyń, they start the Budzyń camp, yeah.

740
01:02:44,667 --> 01:02:50,032
IV: Okay, maybe before going on with the story, some questions about Flossenbürg?

741
01:02:50,033 --> 01:02:50,399
NF: Yes.

742
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:54,799
IV: So, you and your friend, you have been something like a specialist for this work?

743
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:55,266
NF: Yes.

744
01:02:55,267 --> 01:03:01,666
IV: So maybe you got be treated ah a little bit better than some other people?

745
01:03:01,667 --> 01:03:07,866
NF: Ah actually I could not complain to much ah in comparancy to other places

746
01:03:07,867 --> 01:03:12,032
I were before, Flossenburg was not too bad for me.

747
01:03:12,033 --> 01:03:14,866
No, no, I could not, I could not say ah say.

748
01:03:14,867 --> 01:03:16,532
I, I worked hard.

749
01:03:16,533 --> 01:03:22,399
I was in a danger, because ah, there, if something did something wrong

750
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,399
on the, on the wings, and the Halle 11.

751
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,966
The, there, there were, there were no excuses.

752
01:03:29,967 --> 01:03:34,199
The only excuses was to, to, to got beated.

753
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:39,999
And they were beated by a Schlauch fulled up with, with ah, ah rivets.

754
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:47,832
And ah some of them you get about ten, fifteen ah of this ah of beated by this Schlauchs,

755
01:03:47,833 --> 01:03:49,532
you never get up again.

756
01:03:49,533 --> 01:03:53,332
And ah it were, there were no excuses there.

757
01:03:53,333 --> 01:03:56,332
It was very brutal.

758
01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:58,566
You have to be according to it.

759
01:03:58,567 --> 01:04:00,866
You have to do it proper.

760
01:04:00,867 --> 01:04:06,599
Because if you don't do it proper, the only thing you get beated and very brutal.

761
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,599
IV: So, beside the work, how was the situation in the camp in the last year?

762
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:15,832
So, I think you saw a lot what happened to other people.

763
01:04:15,833 --> 01:04:19,666
How was the food, ah the situation in the barracks?

764
01:04:19,667 --> 01:04:21,066
NF: Ah, not, not so bad.

765
01:04:21,067 --> 01:04:23,499
I do.., I don't remember it too bad.

766
01:04:23,500 --> 01:04:25,799
I mean considering we were in camps.

767
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:34,099
It was not a {laughing}, not a, ah four stars hotel {laughing}, you know.

768
01:04:34,100 --> 01:04:41,732
So, I could not personally, beside ah having a very hard work and very,

769
01:04:41,733 --> 01:04:44,132
you have to be very concentrated on work.

770
01:04:44,133 --> 01:04:47,099
I mean, to avoid getting beated.

771
01:04:47,100 --> 01:04:54,966
So, me and my friend, we were very devoted to do the job as required.

772
01:04:54,967 --> 01:05:01,666
Not be, not be enthusiastic, but required according to required and do it well.

773
01:05:01,667 --> 01:05:09,466
So, to, to ah to eliminate to being beated, because the, no excuses.

774
01:05:09,467 --> 01:05:14,999
It was ah this, that was the only way that make, to keep it very brutal.

775
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:20,299
IV: So can you remember things like the daily meeting on the Appellplatz and so?

776
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:26,466
So many people told, told me during this, the last month the situation was very like chaotic,

777
01:05:26,467 --> 01:05:29,332
because more and more people came to Flossenbürg.

778
01:05:29,333 --> 01:05:29,532
NF: Yes. Yes.

779
01:05:29,533 --> 01:05:30,766
IV: There was no food, and many people they were very weak and sick.

780
01:05:30,767 --> 01:05:34,566
NF: Yeah, yes.

781
01:05:34,567 --> 01:05:36,866
IV: Dying, brought to the crematory.

782
01:05:36,867 --> 01:05:40,199
So are there things you can remember you saw beside you?

783
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:44,999
NF: I re.., I remember only the ah crematorium was close

784
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:49,599
I remember I, ah we pract.., every day I could see the ah creamtorium.

785
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,632
And every day was ah new bodies brought from somewhere,

786
01:05:52,633 --> 01:05:57,166
I don't know, dead bodies to be buried in the crematorium, from other places.

787
01:05:57,167 --> 01:06:01,666
They used to brought them to Flossenbürg, because here was ah the crematorium.

788
01:06:01,667 --> 01:06:04,666
So only there I could see every day.

789
01:06:04,667 --> 01:06:10,266
Food, I don't remember mainly, because I was very selective in food.

790
01:06:10,267 --> 01:06:17,299
I was very ah, very ah you know, I stood ahead

791
01:06:17,300 --> 01:06:20,799
to know what is good for me and what's n.., bad for me.

792
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:31,966
But ah I don't remember ah suffering specially ah on because of food.

793
01:06:31,967 --> 01:06:37,932
I don't remember my, I know that the day I was liberated

794
01:06:37,933 --> 01:06:42,732
ah I went on a scale and I was fourty-seven kilo {laughing}.

795
01:06:42,733 --> 01:06:47,666
Fourty-seven kilo {laughing}, like so skinny.

796
01:06:47,667 --> 01:06:51,899
And ah the first thing we were recovered was in Flossenbürg.

797
01:06:51,900 --> 01:06:55,466
And not in Flossenbürg, in ah Neunburg.

798
01:06:55,467 --> 01:07:01,932
I don't remember that, that a, ah, that family, a farmer in Neunburg

799
01:07:01,933 --> 01:07:06,999
who welcomed us and gives us food to recover.

800
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,566
We were three of us at this ah farmer.

801
01:07:10,567 --> 01:07:15,432
I don't remember name and I don't know, if I would recognize even the house {laughing}.

802
01:07:15,433 --> 01:07:18,666
Ah, I don't know, but that was in, in Neunburg.

803
01:07:18,667 --> 01:07:25,366
I used to go, later on I used to come to Weiden to get ah rations for food, you know?

804
01:07:25,367 --> 01:07:25,866
IV: Yeah.

805
01:07:25,867 --> 01:07:28,132
NF: In Weiden you has, ah, rations, ah.

806
01:07:28,133 --> 01:07:29,232
IV: Rationen.

807
01:07:29,233 --> 01:07:34,999
NF: Ex.., exactly, I went to the ah city home, city ah, city office.

808
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:43,866
And they give us ah, ah cards for, for food, here in Weiden, again.

809
01:07:43,867 --> 01:07:44,666
We were..

810
01:07:44,667 --> 01:07:47,999
IV: Well, let's continue this story, you came back fro..,

811
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,066
two, you've been two weeks to Poland?

812
01:07:50,067 --> 01:07:50,232
NF: Yeah.

813
01:07:50,233 --> 01:07:50,732
IV: And then..

814
01:07:50,733 --> 01:07:51,832
NF: And then I come back.

815
01:07:51,833 --> 01:07:55,032
IV: ..to avoid to join the army, you came, went back to Germany?

816
01:07:55,033 --> 01:07:57,832
NF: Wen.., went back to, to Germany.

817
01:07:57,833 --> 01:08:02,566
I, the first thing, I ended up at Potsdam in Berlin.

818
01:08:02,567 --> 01:08:08,532
And from Potsdam I went to, I want to go back to Frankfurt.

819
01:08:08,533 --> 01:08:13,566
Ah, because I had in, near Frankfurt was ah Zeilsheim DP camp.

820
01:08:13,567 --> 01:08:16,499
So I was ah get.., getting there.

821
01:08:16,500 --> 01:08:23,866
And there we start ah, was ah some kind ah, already organizing ah young boys,

822
01:08:23,867 --> 01:08:28,966
to prepare them to, to be se.., ah, to be sent to Israel.

823
01:08:28,967 --> 01:08:36,166
And my, my destination was, in my wing, to get to Israel is, as, as early as possible.

824
01:08:36,167 --> 01:08:43,566
So from ah, from Po.., from Berlin I get to Frankfurt and Frankfurt Zeilsheim.

825
01:08:43,567 --> 01:08:50,266
I get in Zeilsheim, Zeilsheim was at ah, Joint, was already active there, it was already

826
01:08:50,267 --> 01:08:58,266
ah, they give us ah lectures and ah studies, all kind of studies in, in Zeilsheim.

827
01:08:58,267 --> 01:09:03,232
And in, from Zeilsheim we were already controlled by the, {clearing the throat}

828
01:09:03,233 --> 01:09:10,332
you know the, ah, the British army, there was a, ah, a Jewish ah group of soldiers,

829
01:09:10,333 --> 01:09:14,599
in the British army was the, ah, Israelis, most of them.

830
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:24,166
We are, them, I, I made a first a.., ah, ah, letter or I do..,

831
01:09:24,167 --> 01:09:30,166
I think it was a letter to send to, to my aunt, in, in Israel,

832
01:09:30,167 --> 01:09:34,366
that I, I, that I'm, I'm alive {laughing}.

833
01:09:34,367 --> 01:09:38,466
That was the first notice from me for them that I'm alive

834
01:09:38,467 --> 01:09:45,132
and I'm in, that I'm in Zeilsheim and I'm trying to get ah, to back,

835
01:09:45,133 --> 01:09:49,999
ah trying to, to do the first support to (???) to go to Israel.

836
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:56,999
And ah so the first attempt going out from Zeilsheim to Israel

837
01:09:57,000 --> 01:10:00,766
was going to Belgium and from Belgium to France

838
01:10:00,767 --> 01:10:05,932
and from France to go on on a ship illegal to, to Israel.

839
01:10:05,933 --> 01:10:11,299
So this attempt ended up at the border between German and Belgium.

840
01:10:11,300 --> 01:10:18,999
Ah, we were on military trucks from the Jewish brigade, Jewish brigade at the Britsh army

841
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:22,066
and we were like a covered you know in a truck.

842
01:10:22,067 --> 01:10:28,366
When we get to the border, so the control, British control {laughing} ask ah:

843
01:10:28,367 --> 01:10:30,799
"What, what are you carrying?"

844
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,899
And ah they didn't accept what was on the records.

845
01:10:34,900 --> 01:10:38,932
They start to see, that was a bunch of young people like we are.

846
01:10:38,933 --> 01:10:41,099
They said: "No, you cannot go, you cannot pass."

847
01:10:41,100 --> 01:10:43,832
So I have to go back.

848
01:10:43,833 --> 01:10:45,466
So we were released.

849
01:10:45,467 --> 01:10:50,766
We went back to Hannover, from Hannover to Frankfurt and back to Zeilsheim.

850
01:10:50,767 --> 01:10:55,466
And then the {clearing the throat}, after a while was a second attempt

851
01:10:55,467 --> 01:11:02,732
who went via Austria, Alps, by the Alps to Italy.

852
01:11:02,733 --> 01:11:08,432
So we ended up at ah Rivoli, Rivoli at Rivoli in Italy.

853
01:11:08,433 --> 01:11:14,432
And from Rivoli were about ah, from Rivoli then to,

854
01:11:14,433 --> 01:11:19,632
to a place called Ladispoli near, near Rome.

855
01:11:19,633 --> 01:11:30,032
And after a while, later, we was brought to, to ah, ah station near the mediteranean sea.

856
01:11:30,033 --> 01:11:35,732
And ah, and then we get on a, on a ship called

857
01:11:35,733 --> 01:11:41,332
"Mordea Getaod" - Ghetto's Rebellion, Ghetto rebellions.

858
01:11:41,333 --> 01:11:45,299
And of course the British discovered us in middle of the ocean.

859
01:11:45,300 --> 01:11:59,299
And ah it was ah, it was in 1947, yes, in, in '47 and ah I ended up in Cyprus {laughing}.

860
01:11:59,300 --> 01:12:02,666
I could see Israel only {laughing}.

861
01:12:02,667 --> 01:12:06,099
The Mountains of Carmel, in Carmel Mountains only from the,

862
01:12:06,100 --> 01:12:13,266
ah, from the British, on a British ah, ah, ship carrying us to Cyprus.

863
01:12:13,267 --> 01:12:20,332
And ah I was in Cyprus almost about eight month.

864
01:12:20,333 --> 01:12:29,332
And ah, my aunt, she was so anxious to, to get me out from Cyprus.

865
01:12:29,333 --> 01:12:35,632
She, she knew that I'm already in Cyprus, because the first notice was from Germany.

866
01:12:35,633 --> 01:12:42,166
And ah I don't know, she has a ah a son in my age.

867
01:12:42,167 --> 01:12:48,732
So, she, and she, she flew over from Tel Aviv on a little Piper Cub you know,

868
01:12:48,733 --> 01:12:52,499
ah hired it, hi.., Piper Cub with a pilot.

869
01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:57,999
He brought her to Cyprus and come and get up to the British control and said

870
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:01,332
she wants to get out me as her son.

871
01:13:01,333 --> 01:13:04,532
But they didn't accept it {laughing}.

872
01:13:04,533 --> 01:13:09,799
They didn't accept it, but she visit me in th ca.., in the camp.

873
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,132
But ah I couldn't get out with her.

874
01:13:13,133 --> 01:13:19,366
But later on the end, in, it was in April, also in the beginning of April,

875
01:13:19,367 --> 01:13:30,666
ah, I was released from Cyprus as the ah young, younger group and we ended up to Tel Aviv port.

876
01:13:30,667 --> 01:13:33,566
Tel Aviv port was already no British there.

877
01:13:33,567 --> 01:13:39,499
The British were already con.., ah the ah the last ah prepation before leaving Israel

878
01:13:39,500 --> 01:13:41,566
they were on in Haifa, more north.

879
01:13:41,567 --> 01:13:45,866
And Tel Aviv was already controlled by, by Israel.

880
01:13:45,867 --> 01:13:50,499
But before establishing Israel, Is.., Israel was established in May.

881
01:13:50,500 --> 01:13:57,199
But this was in April, but ah we already, was, ah coming there.

882
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:03,066
Now of course it was ah, I met my family, there already, it was in April.

883
01:14:03,067 --> 01:14:09,099
So this ah pesach, I mean you know ah, our easter

884
01:14:09,100 --> 01:14:14,299
I was already ce.., celebrating with my family in, in Tel Aviv again.

885
01:14:14,300 --> 01:14:19,766
And right after it, ah, before, before the declaration of ah Israel,

886
01:14:19,767 --> 01:14:23,699
I already wanted to join the, join the army.

887
01:14:23,700 --> 01:14:30,132
So I we.., I went, I went to ah to, to join the Israeli army.

888
01:14:30,133 --> 01:14:34,932
So they start to ask of my background of profession or what do I know.

889
01:14:34,933 --> 01:14:40,499
I said, I'm already {laughing} qualified on a Messerschmitt {laughing}.

890
01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:46,966
So, {clearing the throat} "Messerschmitt qualified - Israeli Air Force right away" {laughing}.

891
01:14:46,967 --> 01:14:55,599
So I joined the Israeli Air Force and at that time we start to bring dismanteld Messerschmitts from Czechoslovakia.

892
01:14:55,600 --> 01:15:01,332
You know, the Czechs they get, they were sub-controlled by Messerschmitt.

893
01:15:01,333 --> 01:15:05,032
And they also build at the Messerschmitt in Czechia.

894
01:15:05,033 --> 01:15:09,966
Not only in Germany, also in Czechia builded Messerschmitt 109.

895
01:15:09,967 --> 01:15:14,566
And then, and they b.., and they sold us Mes.., the Messerschmitt.

896
01:15:14,567 --> 01:15:17,766
They were brought to Israel in, in parts.

897
01:15:17,767 --> 01:15:19,532
And we had to assembly them.

898
01:15:19,533 --> 01:15:22,766
We assembly them and put it into service {laughing}.

899
01:15:22,767 --> 01:15:30,699
And, and then, and they were as, as, ah interceptors.

900
01:15:30,700 --> 01:15:35,666
IV: So the, the first ah planes in the Israelian army were Messerschmitts?

901
01:15:35,667 --> 01:15:41,232
NF: Messerschmitts, Messerschmitt and also we start to collect ah

902
01:15:41,233 --> 01:15:48,466
from ah leftover from the British airport ah British bases in Israel.

903
01:15:48,467 --> 01:15:52,932
There were two bases in ak.., one in South and one in, in North.

904
01:15:52,933 --> 01:15:56,499
And we went there, we start to collect some pieces.

905
01:15:56,500 --> 01:16:00,699
We built it up from nothing, one Spitfire,

906
01:16:00,700 --> 01:16:04,866
one Spitfire with the help, with the help from Canadian engineers

907
01:16:04,867 --> 01:16:08,599
and Britain, you know were ah, ah volunteers.

908
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:10,732
They come to, to help us in the way.

909
01:16:10,733 --> 01:16:15,132
And we build it up one mel.., one a Spitfire.

910
01:16:15,133 --> 01:16:19,966
And the problem is, was, ah the Spitfire has a engine,

911
01:16:19,967 --> 01:16:25,832
a British engine and we wanted to put down ah an American from ah

912
01:16:25,833 --> 01:16:34,932
the, our goal was to take ah an engine from a Mustang to put it on, on a, on a spitfire.

913
01:16:34,933 --> 01:16:38,566
They succeeded with the help of some engineers.

914
01:16:38,567 --> 01:16:44,399
And the, to put it down yeah, and we assembled one spitfire from nothing, from scrap.

915
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:50,166
And it flew, and it, ah, and it worked {laughing}.

916
01:16:50,167 --> 01:16:53,599
That was an interesting part, very interesting, I mean

917
01:16:53,600 --> 01:17:01,432
to combine a Merlin, Spitfire had a Merlin engine, British Merlin, you know, Merlin engine.

918
01:17:01,433 --> 01:17:08,266
And the Mustang was ah Pratt & Whitney, Pratt & Whitney with ah, an American engine.

919
01:17:08,267 --> 01:17:15,266
But ah to make a combination between the two engines, from Pratt & Whitney and Merlin,

920
01:17:15,267 --> 01:17:18,899
it was quite ah brilliant work!

921
01:17:18,900 --> 01:17:21,699
And ah, and it worked.

922
01:17:21,700 --> 01:17:25,132
It flewed a long time the, that Spitfire.

923
01:17:25,133 --> 01:17:30,299
But ah, the, the most ah the interceptors were the Messerschmitt 109.

924
01:17:30,300 --> 01:17:34,332
IV: So and later on, you stood with the army or you (???)

925
01:17:34,333 --> 01:17:43,932
NF: I, I, I to.., I took, yes, yes, I, I took, I was with the army ah, beside that, that time they ask

926
01:17:43,933 --> 01:17:50,032
who, after eighteen months being in service, they ask us to continue for another, another year.

927
01:17:50,033 --> 01:17:55,166
Ah as paid, as, as a professional.

928
01:17:55,167 --> 01:18:02,166
So I was, was ah instead of two years I was ah serving three years in Israeli army.

929
01:18:02,167 --> 01:18:06,332
And when I get out from Israeli army, I joined El Al.

930
01:18:06,333 --> 01:18:11,532
I start to work as an aircraft ah mechanic for El Al.

931
01:18:11,533 --> 01:18:15,799
And ah I worked in El Al for about three years.

932
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:23,032
Und denn, wenn es, ah they build up the Israeli Industries, ah Bedek, the Israeli Aircraft Industries,

933
01:18:23,033 --> 01:18:29,666
I joined, ah Israeli American ah Israeli Aircraft Industries for about thirty-two years.

934
01:18:29,667 --> 01:18:32,766
I used to work there {laughing}.

935
01:18:32,767 --> 01:18:38,499
With.., I mean, the beginning of the Umschulung ah wi.., with Heinkel

936
01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:44,999
continued my life and at this profession with ah as an aircraft engineer.

937
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:49,232
I was also a flight engineer, ah flight ah group.

938
01:18:49,233 --> 01:18:56,099
And a lot of things we, we were also in South America for five years

939
01:18:56,100 --> 01:19:01,799
representing Israeli Aircraft Industries, working on Boeing air.., airplanes

940
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:04,399
in, as an instructor, an technician.

941
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:06,332
And a head of a group.

942
01:19:06,333 --> 01:19:12,399
So we were three years in Ecuador and almost two years in Bolivia,

943
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:16,632
we were as representative of Israel Aircraft Industries.

944
01:19:16,633 --> 01:19:24,232
I was also a representative what they called Cono Sur, I mean the, the ah

945
01:19:24,233 --> 01:19:32,899
South, South part of the continent, which ah includes Brazil, Argentina and Chile.

946
01:19:32,900 --> 01:19:38,366
They call it Cono Sur, I mean, there it's like a cone, you know there,

947
01:19:38,367 --> 01:19:45,666
when you see it on in the map, the end of it is like a corn, a triangle.

948
01:19:45,667 --> 01:19:49,166
IV: So starting this new life in Israel, ah,

949
01:19:49,167 --> 01:19:53,699
how did you manage ah remembering the past?

950
01:19:53,700 --> 01:19:55,732
Did you try to forget everything?

951
01:19:55,733 --> 01:19:57,399
NF: I cou.., I couldn't speak up.

952
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,566
Ah, my, my kids did know nothing about it.

953
01:20:00,567 --> 01:20:03,932
Not my wife, my wife she is born in Israel.

954
01:20:03,933 --> 01:20:11,132
And ah she didn't know nothing, I, I think she knows now for the interviews more than {laughing}.

955
01:20:11,133 --> 01:20:19,099
I also wrote a book, in Hebrew I wrote a book about my own experience, yeah, as much I could remember.

956
01:20:19,100 --> 01:20:27,566
And ah, but ah, my kids, until they grew up, I never, I never talk about it.

957
01:20:27,567 --> 01:20:29,999
I'd never talk about, I couldn't speak up.

958
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:37,632
Today its more easier for me ah to be, if you would have interviewed me, you, about twenty years ago,

959
01:20:37,633 --> 01:20:40,632
I would not be able to talk it about it.

960
01:20:40,633 --> 01:20:41,666
IV: When did it change?

961
01:20:41,667 --> 01:20:43,632
When, that you have you start talking about it?

962
01:20:43,633 --> 01:20:49,832
NF: When, about five, I mean, ah last, you know, you getting older.

963
01:20:49,833 --> 01:20:55,032
I'm, I'm already you know I'm today I'm eighty-six years old.

964
01:20:55,033 --> 01:20:58,699
And ah with the time you know, you are more settled,

965
01:20:58,700 --> 01:21:03,799
well it's a time to, to speak up a little bit, yeah.

966
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:09,599
IV: So and you, so in Israel there are a lot of ah Holocaust survivors living there, in, in..?

967
01:21:09,600 --> 01:21:10,332
NF: Yes there are.

968
01:21:10,333 --> 01:21:13,332
IV: Also in the daily culture and the political culture..

969
01:21:13,333 --> 01:21:13,332
NF: Yeah.

970
01:21:13,333 --> 01:21:16,532
IV: Holocaust is a big topic, always to remember.

971
01:21:16,533 --> 01:21:19,166
And you didn't had any contact with other survivors?

972
01:21:19,167 --> 01:21:19,999
NF: Yes, sure.

973
01:21:20,000 --> 01:21:20,732
IV: But..

974
01:21:20,733 --> 01:21:26,132
NF: A lot of su.., yes, I we.., I'm all the time in, in contact with me.., survivors.

975
01:21:26,133 --> 01:21:27,666
IV: But you didn't talk about?

976
01:21:27,667 --> 01:21:29,999
NF: Yes, today everybody talks a bit.

977
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,332
Today, you know, with the time..

978
01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:32,399
IV: But in the beginning?

979
01:21:32,400 --> 01:21:37,766
NF: Beginning? {shaking head} I didn't were, most of our, my friend didn't talk too much about it.

980
01:21:37,767 --> 01:21:41,132
We, we, either by, by myself, I wanted to forget.

981
01:21:41,133 --> 01:21:46,399
I want.., I had ah light mares, nightmares.

982
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:54,332
Not once, many times, my wife is, wakes me up when I got a nightmare up today.

983
01:21:54,333 --> 01:21:58,899
But in beginning, no, it was just out.

984
01:21:58,900 --> 01:22:09,666
I had nightmares more in laters years than in beginning. Yeah.

985
01:22:09,667 --> 01:22:12,732
IV: And how did you feel yesterday, coming back?

986
01:22:12,733 --> 01:22:18,332
NF: Very interesting, very interesting, very interesting, I,

987
01:22:18,333 --> 01:22:21,432
I was looking to see, you know, I asked all the time:

988
01:22:21,433 --> 01:22:23,966
"I want to see the Steinbruch. Where is the Steinbruch?" {laughing}

989
01:22:23,967 --> 01:22:26,632
Then I see, you cannot see it (???).

990
01:22:26,633 --> 01:22:31,532
Also the uphill where the, where the barracks was, today is inhabitated.

991
01:22:31,533 --> 01:22:35,366
People are living there, yeah. Yeah.

992
01:22:35,367 --> 01:22:38,332
IV: And did you take you to this Steinbruch yesterday?

993
01:22:38,333 --> 01:22:42,999
NF: No {laughing}, we went to ah, Anna told me, yeah, it's right here, it's right here.

994
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:45,899
But we didn't get ah closer to it, actually.

995
01:22:45,900 --> 01:22:48,099
IV: I think you will have a chance the next days.

996
01:22:48,100 --> 01:22:51,899
NF: Today I think we are going to be in Schwarzenfeld as well.

997
01:22:51,900 --> 01:22:57,899
I think so, to.., because ah the schedule for today is Neunburg and also Schwarzenfeld.

998
01:22:57,900 --> 01:23:02,599
IV: Yeah, well, then thank you very much for..

999
01:23:02,600 --> 01:23:03,166
NF: You're welcome.

1000
01:23:03,167 --> 01:23:03,999
IV: ...sharing your experience.

1001
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:07,999
NF: Yeah, thank you, I hope I ah, it was interesting for you.

1002
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:09,232
IV: Very interesting, yes.

1003
01:23:09,233 --> 01:23:10,832
NF: For you to see.

1004
01:23:10,833 --> 01:23:21,732
But ah I want ah to impress my ah, thankfull and ah appreciation what Anna and ah Anna Andlauer..

1005
01:23:21,733 --> 01:23:28,199
and also Sylvia ah Menschmeka, Menschmeier, Sylvia Münchmeier

1006
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,599
IV: I don't know her. I know Anna Andlauer.

1007
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:35,566
NF: Anna and also Sylvia Münchmeier, which I'm in contact with them via emails.

1008
01:23:35,567 --> 01:23:38,432
They do a holy work, I appreciate.

1009
01:23:38,433 --> 01:23:44,932
I really have full, full, full sympathy, what they are doing.

1010
01:23:44,933 --> 01:23:49,866
And I understand that, the ah, the most of the expenses everything is covered.

1011
01:23:49,867 --> 01:23:53,799
And the expenses is only by donation of people.

1012
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:59,932
People or firms donating I mean to, to make that reunion.

1013
01:23:59,933 --> 01:24:06,766
And also like yesterday I said, most people knows about Dachau ah Auschwitz,

1014
01:24:06,767 --> 01:24:09,599
but Flossenbürg not many people knows about it.

1015
01:24:09,600 --> 01:24:10,666
You know, it's not so popular.

1016
01:24:10,667 --> 01:24:11,999
IV: Now it's changing.

1017
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:13,166
NF: It's changing now? Because,

1018
01:24:13,167 --> 01:24:15,932
IV: Ten years ago, we called it the forgotten camp.

1019
01:24:15,933 --> 01:24:23,599
NF: Because of, of people like Anna and ah Sylvia Münchmeier, what they are doing.

1020
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:29,932
I mean, and you, you are bringing Flossenbürg to the media, to the media

1021
01:24:29,933 --> 01:24:34,632
to people to know that not only Dachau and ah Hers.., and Auschwitz was.

1022
01:24:34,633 --> 01:24:36,732
There was also Flossenbürg, right behind.

1023
01:24:36,733 --> 01:24:41,632
IV: But also Hersbruck. Now is in Hersbruck this (???) to remember this year.

1024
01:24:41,633 --> 01:24:44,732
NF: Yeah, you, you, you, you heared before about Hersbruck, before?

1025
01:24:44,733 --> 01:24:47,132
IV: Yeah, because it's, we are living in Nürnberg.

1026
01:24:47,133 --> 01:24:49,266
NF: Ah, you live in Nürnberg.

1027
01:24:49,267 --> 01:24:53,699
IV: And also, also friends of us, together with us, they started

1028
01:24:53,700 --> 01:24:56,599
twenty years ago making films, videos about..

1029
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:57,999
NF: About, about, yeah..

1030
01:24:58,000 --> 01:25:03,532
IV: So in this village (???), we don't want to hear about it, so it, but now, now is..

1031
01:25:03,533 --> 01:25:05,166
NF: Is getting more, more.

1032
01:25:05,167 --> 01:25:12,666
I, I hope I, I made some contribution to your knowledge about, about Hersbruck and about Flossenbürg.

1033
01:25:12,667 --> 01:25:16,099
Whatever I could personally, personally experience, I mean.

1034
01:25:16,100 --> 01:25:22,132
I hope so and I'm, and I'm ah, that's why I'm so, I'm cooperating with you,

1035
01:25:22,133 --> 01:25:28,032
whoever ask me, please, no problem, I'm, I'm ready to speak up {laughing}.

1036
01:25:28,033 --> 01:25:30,032
IV: Thank you very much.

1037
01:25:30,033 --> 01:25:31,466
NF: You're welcome.

1038
01:25:31,467 --> 01:25:32,199
IV: Okay, then we make..

1039
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:38,333
FF: I want to mention, maybe I asked you things..