1 00:00:01,267 --> 00:00:04,499 IV: Heute ist Donnerstag, der 19. Juli 2012. 2 00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:07,932 Wir sind hier in Weiden im Hotel Admira 3 00:00:07,933 --> 00:00:13,999 und sprechen im Auftrag der Gedenkstätte, der KZ-Gedenkstätte Flossenbürg, mit Tibor Sands, 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:22,432 der heute in den USA lebt und 1925 geboren wurde. 5 00:00:22,433 --> 00:00:26,866 IV: Maybe in the beginning you can just ah, ah tell your name? 6 00:00:26,867 --> 00:00:28,432 When you're born and where you are born? 7 00:00:28,433 --> 00:00:33,099 And a little bit about ah the beginning of your fa.. family, if you like. 8 00:00:33,100 --> 00:00:42,799 TS: My name is Tibor Sands. I was born Tibor Munkácsi in Hungary in 1925. 9 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:51,766 Ah eventually, when I got to the United States, and I became a, an American citizen, 10 00:00:51,767 --> 00:00:56,632 I changed my name from Munkácsi to Sands. 11 00:00:56,633 --> 00:01:01,932 Ah my children and my wife are not very pleased about it. 12 00:01:01,933 --> 00:01:05,166 Ah, but I did it before I ever knew them. 13 00:01:05,167 --> 00:01:11,132 And ah, Sands is, is my, is my name now. 14 00:01:11,133 --> 00:01:15,532 IV: Okay, can you tell a little bit about ah the time you grow up, 15 00:01:15,533 --> 00:01:18,566 about your family, about the city where you lived? 16 00:01:18,567 --> 00:01:26,132 TS: Well, I, ah, I was ah an only child from a second marriage of my father and mother. 17 00:01:26,133 --> 00:01:29,132 They both widows, ah widowers. 18 00:01:29,133 --> 00:01:35,832 And I had ah, oh, nine half-brothers and sister. 19 00:01:35,833 --> 00:01:44,799 Ah six, six or seven of them of my father's side and two of my mother's side. 20 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,399 And I'm, I lived with my mother and my mother's, my sister. 21 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:56,599 And I considered them as my real ah brother and my real sister. 22 00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,666 I was a very good student. 23 00:02:00,667 --> 00:02:06,666 Ah, when I entered first grade in school I could already r..read and write. 24 00:02:06,667 --> 00:02:11,932 I was bored, but I, I, I had good, good grades. 25 00:02:11,933 --> 00:02:19,999 I went through elementary school and I went, entered the Gymnasium ah in Hungary. 26 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:25,566 Fir.., first year, I stud.., we studied Latin. 27 00:02:25,567 --> 00:02:30,632 Ah by the end of a year, I, you could practically speak Latin, 28 00:02:30,633 --> 00:02:33,232 which no.., almost nobody, there ever does. 29 00:02:33,233 --> 00:02:47,466 And ah, I was a good student and ah about that time, ah the ah jew hate, jewish hatred started. 30 00:02:47,467 --> 00:02:56,799 I always considered myself as a ah, ah, an, ah loyal Hungarian, born Hungarian. 31 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:03,166 Ah all this sudden, I, I was on.. only a, only a Jew. 32 00:03:03,167 --> 00:03:10,432 But ah in third Gymnasium, we started studying German. 33 00:03:10,433 --> 00:03:15,766 And it, the teacher or professor was a nazi. 34 00:03:15,767 --> 00:03:23,999 He was wearing a swastika or a Hungarian version of the swastika, the Arrow Cross. 35 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:35,832 And we had to enter the class and raise our hand and I refused to study under him. I never even opened my German text book. 36 00:03:35,833 --> 00:03:41,166 And end of the year, end of this, this year he failed me, 37 00:03:41,167 --> 00:03:43,099 which, what you never thought. 38 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:45,966 So I dropped out of a school. 39 00:03:45,967 --> 00:03:52,832 I ah, tried to get a apprenticeship as a photographer. 40 00:03:52,833 --> 00:03:59,499 Because ah photography ran in my family. And I couldn't get one. 41 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:05,766 And ended up as a taylor, an apprentice taylor. 42 00:04:05,767 --> 00:04:14,099 And I grad..graduated as a taylor, ah, just ah in 1944, 43 00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:22,332 when I was drafted into the Hungarian labor force, which ran parallel to the army. 44 00:04:22,333 --> 00:04:28,332 It was part of the Hungarian army, except we didn't have uniforms. 45 00:04:28,333 --> 00:04:37,999 Ah the only thing you could tell whether you are in army, the ah army cap and the yellow armband. 46 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:45,099 And I got assigned to a, ah military unit. 47 00:04:45,100 --> 00:04:54,599 We, we, it was ah reparing bombing sites, rai.. railroads re.. strictly railroads. 48 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,632 And ah I worked very hard. 49 00:04:57,633 --> 00:05:00,999 I was eighteen years old. 50 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:14,466 And ah, we of, living in s.., in railroad cars and we were travelling ah from one bomb, bomb site to another ah. 51 00:05:14,467 --> 00:05:23,499 And ah sometime in November or maybe it was late October of 44, 52 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:31,666 we were stationed near the Romanian border on the Hungarian side of the river, river Tisa. 53 00:05:31,667 --> 00:05:36,832 When we already heared Russian troops approaching. 54 00:05:36,833 --> 00:05:40,432 I could ah wipe my, can I take ah second? 55 00:05:40,433 --> 00:05:44,066 IV: Whatever you want, of course. 56 00:05:44,067 --> 00:05:51,832 TS: We heard the Russian troops approaching and we decided to ah 57 00:05:51,833 --> 00:05:58,932 leave the, ah leave the, our unit and ah, go into hiding. 58 00:05:58,933 --> 00:06:05,032 Some, some of us went to into hiding into, in a barn in a farm. 59 00:06:05,033 --> 00:06:15,666 And some of us went to a railroad station and pretending that we want to get to back to Budapest. 60 00:06:15,667 --> 00:06:21,099 Ah, we got a lift to Budapest in a German armored car, armored train. 61 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:28,666 And I went to Budapest, but by this time, a sort of a ghetto system existed. 62 00:06:28,667 --> 00:06:32,099 That Jews had to live in marked ho.. homes. 63 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:37,299 So I couldn't, I could visit my mother and my sister in their home. 64 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:42,499 But I couldn't spent the night there, it was ah illegal. 65 00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:48,932 And ah m.. many, many of my Christian friends let me sleep in their home. 66 00:06:48,933 --> 00:06:52,866 One, one night or one day only. 67 00:06:52,867 --> 00:06:59,532 But I couldn't do more than once, be.. one night, because ah it was dangerous for them. 68 00:06:59,533 --> 00:07:04,299 Ah, they could have been jailed or even shot for doing it. 69 00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:09,232 By this time the Hungarian nazi party ah took over. 70 00:07:09,233 --> 00:07:13,866 They were in full power that, that time. 71 00:07:13,867 --> 00:07:24,332 And ah I single handedly f.. changed my i.., in.., identification card, 72 00:07:24,333 --> 00:07:32,232 my birthday card, where, in Hungary religion was part of your, your birth certificate. 73 00:07:32,233 --> 00:07:38,666 I changed it to Roman Catholic and I changed my mother's maiden name. 74 00:07:38,667 --> 00:07:44,466 That was Sobo, that sounded very non-Hungarian. 75 00:07:44,467 --> 00:07:46,666 And ah I got away with it. 76 00:07:46,667 --> 00:07:55,766 A few times I got stopped on the streets and I could show this fake ID and I got away with it. 77 00:07:55,767 --> 00:08:08,599 And some friends of mine, ah, ah myself found a, a coal cellar, ah, where they sell coal and, and firewood. 78 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,666 Well, they let us s..spend the night. 79 00:08:11,667 --> 00:08:18,132 And somebody saw us go in there and the Hungarian Nazi 80 00:08:18,133 --> 00:08:24,432 civilian Nazi guards caught us and took us out. 81 00:08:24,433 --> 00:08:31,399 And I showed my s..fake ID. 82 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,499 Unfortunately, one of this Nazis was, has recognized me. 83 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:41,999 He was one of my class mates in ah, in ah in school. 84 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:54,199 So they tore up my paper and we, took us to a school yard, nearby, nearby school yard and four of us, 85 00:08:54,200 --> 00:09:01,099 was, were lined up against a brick wall with a firing squad sending there. 86 00:09:01,100 --> 00:09:22,666 Ah somebody notified the ah local army ah that was also in charge of a, a different group of Jewish labor.. laborers. 87 00:09:22,667 --> 00:09:24,299 Just like my friend. 88 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:32,666 And the lieutenant from there came in and said: "I am gonna, I'm in charge of here, here. 89 00:09:32,667 --> 00:09:34,966 And I'm gonna arrest, arrest these men. 90 00:09:34,967 --> 00:09:37,999 And we go.., we are going to punish them. 91 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,732 And ah came down and hit everybody, ev.., all of us. 92 00:09:42,733 --> 00:09:51,499 He came to me {coughing} and hit me and, and whispers, he said: "Fa.., fall down, fall down, fall down." 93 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:56,032 So I fell down and he, he took us from this school 94 00:09:56,033 --> 00:10:00,666 around the corner in a street, a couple of s.., streets away. 95 00:10:00,667 --> 00:10:02,666 And set us free. 96 00:10:02,667 --> 00:10:05,332 So, again, ah I was free. 97 00:10:05,333 --> 00:10:13,666 I had no more ID {coughing} and ah had a hard time hiding at night. 98 00:10:13,667 --> 00:10:17,332 D.., during the day I had no problem, I could walk on the street. 99 00:10:17,333 --> 00:10:21,332 I was, I looked much younger than I was. 100 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:24,432 Ah I looked like a young kid. 101 00:10:24,433 --> 00:10:32,399 And ah I was captured on ah early December. 102 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,066 And locked up in a building and I gave up. 103 00:10:37,067 --> 00:10:47,932 I said, I, I, I escaped so many times and on the my birthday, December 9th they took me, 104 00:10:47,933 --> 00:10:54,999 marched us into a railroad station and put, put us into a railroad car. 105 00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:04,666 And ah, that was December 9, and it took us eighteen days in a railroad car to reach Buchenwald. 106 00:11:04,667 --> 00:11:08,332 I always said, I could have walked faster than that. 107 00:11:08,333 --> 00:11:15,599 And in this car I had a f..few chances of escaping, 108 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,366 but I thought, somebody told me that my mother and my sister 109 00:11:20,367 --> 00:11:22,632 were also on the same train. 110 00:11:22,633 --> 00:11:25,332 It was a very long train. 111 00:11:25,333 --> 00:11:29,699 And I wanted to stay there with them. 112 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:35,232 Ah the fact was they, mother, my mother and sister were not on the train. 113 00:11:35,233 --> 00:11:39,332 So we arrived in Buchenwald. 114 00:11:39,333 --> 00:11:42,932 And ah first put into a quarantine lager 115 00:11:42,933 --> 00:11:50,032 and then moved into the working lager eventua.. ah, after two or three weeks. 116 00:11:50,033 --> 00:11:55,499 And ah I was assigned to a (???) commando, we go out and 117 00:11:55,500 --> 00:12:02,999 we were hauling building materials and bricks and lumber and whatever. 118 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:11,332 And ah, one day I was back there, and 119 00:12:11,333 --> 00:12:12,666 I don't know, if I mentioned that. 120 00:12:12,667 --> 00:12:19,432 I, I, I became a ah, a taylor wh.., after dropping out of school. 121 00:12:19,433 --> 00:12:25,399 I went to the Kapo, who was in charge of the Schneiderei. 122 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:32,699 And asked him in my broken German to hire me. And he did. 123 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:36,166 I worked in the Schneiderei and that saved my life, 124 00:12:36,167 --> 00:12:41,732 because standing out in the cold weather ah just wearing a 125 00:12:41,733 --> 00:12:52,332 thin shirt for hours and hours in ah appell while you counted bodies alive and dead. 126 00:12:52,333 --> 00:12:54,432 Ah I didn't have to do it. 127 00:12:54,433 --> 00:13:00,332 I was in.., insi.., inside there, a warm environement 128 00:13:00,333 --> 00:13:02,299 and they were even feeding us. 129 00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:07,999 We're a little, probably a little better than the rest of the prisoners. 130 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:14,399 And I was in the Schneiderei until one day they announced it 131 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:23,966 that all Je.., Jews have to go to the appell, ah to the meeting place. 132 00:13:23,967 --> 00:13:27,832 And ah they were evacuated from Buchenwald. 133 00:13:27,833 --> 00:13:29,566 I didn't go. 134 00:13:29,567 --> 00:13:33,666 Our Kapo in the Schneiderei was, 135 00:13:33,667 --> 00:13:40,499 he was a German prisoner himself, ah, said: "Don't go." 136 00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:43,932 To all, not to me, but to all of us, we didn't go. 137 00:13:43,933 --> 00:13:51,232 And ah that trans.., that group left and next day he couldn't save me, 138 00:13:51,233 --> 00:13:59,266 I had to join the ah group that was evacuated from Buchenwald. 139 00:13:59,267 --> 00:14:06,799 We marched through villages and towns to some very distant railway station. 140 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:13,532 I have no idea why, because there was a railroad track ah right at the camp. 141 00:14:13,533 --> 00:14:20,032 This march, the, some of us were too weak to walk. 142 00:14:20,033 --> 00:14:23,666 The, anybody who fell behind or sat down 143 00:14:23,667 --> 00:14:28,732 was immediately shot in the head by, by the SS-guards. 144 00:14:28,733 --> 00:14:34,466 And to tell you how bad it was, we walked through a village 145 00:14:34,467 --> 00:14:40,032 where women were lining the sidewalks and giving us food. 146 00:14:40,033 --> 00:14:47,666 Giving bread and ah little bowls of soup. And the SS didn't like it. 147 00:14:47,667 --> 00:14:50,999 They were chasing the women away forcefully. 148 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,832 So the women went away and they were throwing the bread, 149 00:14:54,833 --> 00:15:00,866 the bread over the SS's head at us. 150 00:15:00,867 --> 00:15:12,866 Some of them. And ah we got into some railroad cars, somewhere, ah this is a, I can't really tell you 151 00:15:12,867 --> 00:15:15,732 where it was, but it was some railroad cars. 152 00:15:15,733 --> 00:15:30,332 And started going more in, in, in I don't know where, ah, probably towards ah Flossenbürg. 153 00:15:30,333 --> 00:15:42,399 A.., at one time, I think it was Jena, where the train stopped and let off one person from every car to bring water. 154 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:48,999 And every cattle car had maybe f.., fifty to eighty or hundred people in it. 155 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,932 And one, I, I was the one that volunteered and I jumped out 156 00:15:53,933 --> 00:16:02,832 and ran back and forth with buckets of water from a, from the, from the pump and until they stopped it. 157 00:16:02,833 --> 00:16:08,899 And then I suddenly realized that in the big excitement I forget to drink myself. 158 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:17,932 Ah we got back in the train, and ah, now this is ah coming back after so many years. 159 00:16:17,933 --> 00:16:26,032 It's, is not clear to me, how we got to Flossenbürg, ah but we did. 160 00:16:26,033 --> 00:16:34,766 And in Flossenbürg I ended up in a jail cellar, br.., brick 161 00:16:34,767 --> 00:16:42,266 like a regular prison, not in the barracks, like most people, but in a jail cell. 162 00:16:42,267 --> 00:16:53,432 Now, each jail cell that was originally designed for two or three or five people had at least fourty or fifty people. 163 00:16:53,433 --> 00:17:00,466 We all had to stand, there was no way you could sit down or lay down, because 164 00:17:00,467 --> 00:17:01,766 there was no room for that. 165 00:17:01,767 --> 00:17:09,232 We had to stand. And we stood there at, sleeping standing up I guess. 166 00:17:09,233 --> 00:17:18,466 And ah, I don't believe that we ever got fed any food. 167 00:17:18,467 --> 00:17:23,832 And next day they told us, that we mo.. we're moving on a, 168 00:17:23,833 --> 00:17:35,799 we got, got out of the jail and we got into trucks, I believe. 169 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:41,699 This is very faint, maybe it was truck, maybe it wasn't a truck, ah. 170 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:47,766 And we went to a railroad track. 171 00:17:47,767 --> 00:17:58,299 And, and we got into a train and ah, ah maybe this was before that? 172 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:03,532 They, fighter planes came and shot out the engine of this train. 173 00:18:03,533 --> 00:18:09,099 They, they were very carefull not to shoot at the, 174 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:12,599 tr.., the rest of the train only at the engine. 175 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:19,632 And ah they brought another engine in eventually, hours later. 176 00:18:19,633 --> 00:18:25,699 And, as soon as they put the other engine in, the pla.., fighter planes came back and shot that one out. 177 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,799 Then they made us march. 178 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:39,999 Ah, we walk, we marched ah along the highway, along the roads towards Dachau. 179 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:51,432 And now I know the date, it was April 22nd, we arrived at the small town. 180 00:18:51,433 --> 00:18:58,832 And ah the farmer, who had a barn about a hundred meters of the road 181 00:18:58,833 --> 00:19:04,099 allowed this group to sleep in his barn. 182 00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:08,666 And we, we went in and SS were outside 183 00:19:08,667 --> 00:19:16,999 and they said, if anybody comes out of, of the barn, gets shot immediately. 184 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:21,966 And we, we could sleep in the barn on hay and whatever. 185 00:19:21,967 --> 00:19:27,499 In the morning, we heard distant gun fire, 186 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:39,832 ah canon fire and ah one of us had d.., dared to open a barn door and stick his head out. 187 00:19:39,833 --> 00:19:41,732 And there were no SS men around. 188 00:19:41,733 --> 00:19:47,332 So we all came out and all the SS disappeared and up on the highway 189 00:19:47,333 --> 00:19:54,032 American vehicles were coming, ah t.., armored cars and jeeps and so on. 190 00:19:54,033 --> 00:19:57,799 So, we were free. 191 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:05,666 Ah we were free, but not free, because ah, 192 00:20:05,667 --> 00:20:13,766 we descended on the local population and took their food away to eat. 193 00:20:13,767 --> 00:20:17,932 And we raided their homes. 194 00:20:17,933 --> 00:20:27,199 And I say we, ah probably I myself too and this little village prob.., had maybe a dozen homes 195 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,732 and there were two or three thousand prisoners in, in this group where, where I was. 196 00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:41,999 So, from then on it was ah stealing food or begging for food or 197 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:48,966 going into a farmer home or a home and demanding to be fed. 198 00:20:48,967 --> 00:20:52,999 And it was going on and on and on just like that 199 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:59,099 and it wasn't satisfactory, for, for me it wasn't. 200 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:09,966 And ah, I had a problem, I had a pair of boots that broke a hole, di.., dug a hole in my foot. 201 00:21:09,967 --> 00:21:17,366 And ended up in a field hospital run by a Polish doctor 202 00:21:17,367 --> 00:21:21,866 under the army's guidance, US army's guidance. 203 00:21:21,867 --> 00:21:24,799 And ah he did whatever he could. 204 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:30,499 Later on we heard that he wasn't really a doctor, he was only a nurse. 205 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:41,932 And ah I could walk, but with difficulty and ended up in some clinic, some, in some town 206 00:21:41,933 --> 00:21:46,966 where a nun did a magic job. 207 00:21:46,967 --> 00:21:55,966 There was a hole in I, in my calf and she, wi.., which the doctors couldn't fix, 208 00:21:55,967 --> 00:22:02,199 she use, use a styptic pencil, the one that men use for shave, a cut when they shave. 209 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:13,566 She inserted that into this hole in my foot and rubbed it and bank my foot {laughing} healed. 210 00:22:13,567 --> 00:22:25,899 And so, I was wandering around and ah living in ah, in barns, living in stables, living in attics. 211 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:32,232 One day, some UNRRA people came. 212 00:22:32,233 --> 00:22:39,566 I thought they were US army, because they were ah wearing US army uniforms 213 00:22:39,567 --> 00:22:42,999 with, with UNRRA tag on it. 214 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:50,999 And ah, said ah that: "We gonna take you to ah children's ho.., camp, a children's home." 215 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:58,366 About this time, by the way, it was announced that anybody all nationalities had to, 216 00:22:58,367 --> 00:23:02,099 displaced person, had to go home to their native country. 217 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:08,466 The Poles had to go back Poland, the Ukrainians, Russians to their, 218 00:23:08,467 --> 00:23:11,299 and I, there was no way I would go back to Hungary. 219 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:15,532 I hated them wha.., after what they did to me. 220 00:23:15,533 --> 00:23:20,866 They did more harm to me almost than the Germans did. 221 00:23:20,867 --> 00:23:28,766 And the, so UNRRA invitation was very welcome. 222 00:23:28,767 --> 00:23:35,732 I we.., went with them in the, in a truck or a jeep or what, to Indersdorf. 223 00:23:35,733 --> 00:23:44,632 And in Indersdorf the UNRRA team welcomed me, ah, 224 00:23:44,633 --> 00:24:03,799 clean rooms, civilized food, cl.. ah hu.., real humans and, and ah I was no longer a, a minor criminal. 225 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:10,332 Because I felt guilty what I did up to then, but I had to to survive. 226 00:24:10,333 --> 00:24:16,666 And ah there were nuns who were absolutely the ah, the best in the world. 227 00:24:16,667 --> 00:24:20,032 They were, cared for us, they fed us. 228 00:24:20,033 --> 00:24:26,699 So I stayed at, stayed with this ah UNRRA team in there. 229 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:35,132 And one day a film crew came to film the children in, in the cloister. 230 00:24:35,133 --> 00:24:43,766 And ah I went to the director of the film crew and said to him: 231 00:24:43,767 --> 00:24:48,499 "You know, I have a brother, who lives in New York City. 232 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:53,566 Ah, do you know him {laughing}?" 233 00:24:53,567 --> 00:24:59,366 And he laughed, he said: "There are ten, eight to ten million people live in New York City. 234 00:24:59,367 --> 00:25:01,832 How would I know your brother?" 235 00:25:01,833 --> 00:25:06,499 And, when I mentioned my brother's name was, was Martin Munkácsi, 236 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,499 this guy jumped out of his seat. 237 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,766 He said: "He is one of my best friends." 238 00:25:12,767 --> 00:25:21,066 Martin Munkácsi was the world famous photographer, still ah, ah photo journalist, still photographer. 239 00:25:21,067 --> 00:25:30,199 And telegrams went back and forth and ah he said he wants me to come back, 240 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:38,699 come back to the United States and ah, then a, a chance, opportunity came, to go to England. 241 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:46,332 The first transport out of ah, Indersdorf was going to, to England. 242 00:25:46,333 --> 00:25:50,632 It took a long time, because the weather was ra.. wrong and the, 243 00:25:50,633 --> 00:25:56,332 the fly.. the RAF {Royal Air Force} who was to take us couldn't land and so on. 244 00:25:56,333 --> 00:26:05,999 So, finally, end of ah October of '44, I flew to England. 245 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,999 It, in a long run it turned out that, because I ah, flew to England I was no longer a, 246 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,999 a displaced person or a homeless person, stateless person. 247 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,599 I, I couldn't go to United States on ah, on, on a special visa. 248 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,999 I had to wait for the Hungarian visa to come up. 249 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:31,332 It took five years before I could go to the United States. 250 00:26:31,333 --> 00:26:37,266 IV: In those five years you stood in Great Britain, in England? 251 00:26:37,267 --> 00:26:37,599 TS: Pardon? 252 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,666 IV: Those five years waiting for the visa you had to stay in England? 253 00:26:41,667 --> 00:26:45,132 TS: Ah whi.., while I was waiting for a visa, I went to, 254 00:26:45,133 --> 00:26:55,466 I got a job in, in a photo studio, where I, I bo.., I became an apprentice 255 00:26:55,467 --> 00:26:59,599 with others young people. 256 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:05,099 I, I learned photography and I am very glad for it, because, ah, 257 00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:11,466 up to, even today I think the English photography industry is the world's best. 258 00:27:11,467 --> 00:27:18,266 Ah, I learned everything I, I could from ah this company. 259 00:27:18,267 --> 00:27:22,666 Ah five days a week, I went to evening classes, 260 00:27:22,667 --> 00:27:27,032 every night in a week evening classes about photography. 261 00:27:27,033 --> 00:27:34,566 And Saturday our company had classes for all the apprentices about photography. 262 00:27:34,567 --> 00:27:41,566 And ah I was very satisfied what I learned and I went to, 263 00:27:41,567 --> 00:27:45,766 five years later, I me.., when ah my visa came, 264 00:27:45,767 --> 00:27:50,566 I went to the United States and ah 265 00:27:50,567 --> 00:27:55,266 by this time my brother, who was actually a very, very rich person, 266 00:27:55,267 --> 00:28:00,599 was in bad s.., state, because he had a heart attack. 267 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:07,932 And couldn't work and he was financially very insecure. 268 00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:11,332 And I couldn't work for him. 269 00:28:11,333 --> 00:28:17,066 And it took me a long time to find a job as a photographer. 270 00:28:17,067 --> 00:28:26,166 I worked as a photographer and ah my, ha.., I had, actually three brothers in America. 271 00:28:26,167 --> 00:28:30,199 The, my other brother, half-brother, they were half-brothers. 272 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,999 Ah worked in the film industry. 273 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:39,666 He helped me to find contacts in the film business 274 00:28:39,667 --> 00:28:46,232 and ah I was making still photo.., still photographs on movie sets. 275 00:28:46,233 --> 00:28:49,032 But I couldn't get into the labor union. 276 00:28:49,033 --> 00:28:56,899 So I could only work when a union member was available, not a.., avail.. not available. 277 00:28:56,900 --> 00:29:02,032 As soon as the union member was available, I was kicked off the job. 278 00:29:02,033 --> 00:29:06,332 I did ah still, stills for Westside Story. 279 00:29:06,333 --> 00:29:10,566 But I got o.. sent off ah sen.. 280 00:29:10,567 --> 00:29:14,866 And ah I was very happy doing still photography, 281 00:29:14,867 --> 00:29:22,799 but I had a chance, somebody suggested that I become a Motion Picture Camera Assistant. 282 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:28,132 And I did, I, I was, I was able to get into the union 283 00:29:28,133 --> 00:29:35,332 and over the years I developed a very good reputation in New York. 284 00:29:35,333 --> 00:29:41,166 I worked at a.., a.., almost ever big movie ever came into shooting New York. 285 00:29:41,167 --> 00:29:43,199 Not in Hollywood, but in New York. 286 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:50,132 I worked on (???) and I worked ah documentary films I did. 287 00:29:50,133 --> 00:29:58,332 Worked interviews, I worked commercials and ah, I became very, very popular. 288 00:29:58,333 --> 00:30:05,132 And after th.., thirty years doing this, I retired. 289 00:30:05,133 --> 00:30:09,666 I retired for about ah two weeks. 290 00:30:09,667 --> 00:30:17,666 And then the manufacturer of Motion Picture Cameras based in Mu.., Munich ARRIFLEX 291 00:30:17,667 --> 00:30:20,699 approached me to work for them. 292 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:28,766 And I went to work for ARRIFLEX in New York for sixteen years or thirteen years, 293 00:30:28,767 --> 00:30:30,699 then I retired there also. 294 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:35,599 Then I, they called me back and I work another two or three years. 295 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:41,432 And then I retired from there and here I am. 296 00:30:41,433 --> 00:30:44,332 Anything I left out {laughing}? 297 00:30:44,333 --> 00:30:45,732 I got married, I got married twice, 298 00:30:45,733 --> 00:30:50,199 the third time is the, is the, is the only, only one that counts. 299 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:56,799 Very successful that my little wife is here and I love her and she loves me. 300 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:04,999 Ah, from my first marriage, I have a son and a daughter and three grandchildren. 301 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,566 IV: Well, that's, ah it's a good ending story {laughing}. 302 00:31:09,567 --> 00:31:10,599 TS: It's a long story {laughing}. 303 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:11,399 IV: It's a lot {laughing}. Like.. 304 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:12,666 TS: Do you have any questions on it {laughing}? 305 00:31:12,667 --> 00:31:17,966 IV: Yes, I have, just to go ah, coming to, to Indersdorf, 306 00:31:17,967 --> 00:31:21,566 so did you find out what happened to your mother, your sister, the rest of your family? 307 00:31:21,567 --> 00:31:23,699 TS: I'm, I'm sorry, you see, this is my hearing coming. 308 00:31:23,700 --> 00:31:27,532 IV: Okay. Ah being in Indersdorf .. 309 00:31:27,533 --> 00:31:27,999 TS: Yes. 310 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,732 IV: Ah did you try to find out what happened to the rest of your family in Hungary? 311 00:31:33,733 --> 00:31:39,832 TS: Well in Indersdorf in that camp there was no way to communicate with Hungary. 312 00:31:39,833 --> 00:31:47,266 The only way I could have found out, if I got on, hitch-hiked or took a train 313 00:31:47,267 --> 00:31:50,999 or it was, and went back to Hungary and look for them. 314 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,332 Nobody came from Hungary at all. 315 00:31:54,333 --> 00:31:58,932 And it was no mailing, I couldn't mail, write. 316 00:31:58,933 --> 00:32:02,366 I couldn't write until I got to England. 317 00:32:02,367 --> 00:32:07,266 When I got to England, I wrote to my mother 318 00:32:07,267 --> 00:32:12,566 and my sister and I found out that they well. 319 00:32:12,567 --> 00:32:19,932 And w.. I was corresponding with them and some ah charity workers 320 00:32:19,933 --> 00:32:23,032 from England went back and forth to Hungary. 321 00:32:23,033 --> 00:32:28,732 And I send them gifts and they send me back food {laughing}, 322 00:32:28,733 --> 00:32:32,432 because they thought I was starving in, in England. 323 00:32:32,433 --> 00:32:40,999 And ah, ah, at one point, because my American visa didn't come. 324 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,332 I waited, waited, I, I said, it took five years, but I didn't expect, 325 00:32:46,333 --> 00:32:49,399 I was very impatient after a year or two. 326 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:53,166 I wrote to my mother, I'm, I, I may want to come back. 327 00:32:53,167 --> 00:32:56,732 And she wrote to me: "Under any circumstances, 328 00:32:56,733 --> 00:33:01,566 don't come back to Hungary!" 329 00:33:01,567 --> 00:33:03,266 And I didn't. 330 00:33:03,267 --> 00:33:11,966 Ah, since ah 19 ah 68 or so, 66, 331 00:33:11,967 --> 00:33:16,032 I've been visiting Hungary on and off, quite a bit. 332 00:33:16,033 --> 00:33:22,332 I have an, my nice there and a nephew. 333 00:33:22,333 --> 00:33:24,999 IV: And another question, did I get right, 334 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,999 you just have been one night in Flossenbürg? 335 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:28,666 TS: One night. 336 00:33:28,667 --> 00:33:32,332 IV: Just one night. So, they didn't register you..? 337 00:33:32,333 --> 00:33:33,332 TS: No, no.. 338 00:33:33,333 --> 00:33:35,332 IV: They just packed you in this cell where.. 339 00:33:35,333 --> 00:33:44,332 TS: They, they just, we came in and I think, my, is my estimate, they were so overwhelmed with 340 00:33:44,333 --> 00:33:49,366 a thousand newcomers coming in one night, one day. They couldn't handle it. 341 00:33:49,367 --> 00:33:52,999 I don't think they could handle the paper work. 342 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,832 And they just shut us into a cell. 343 00:33:55,833 --> 00:33:59,999 Maybe the plan was to do it slowly next day or so. 344 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,199 But next day they said: "Everybody out. Everybody out." 345 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,599 Ah I understand the cell we were in was, 346 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:16,432 was the death cell that was the last step in, in, in 347 00:34:16,433 --> 00:34:22,266 in this camp, before they shot people and hung them. 348 00:34:22,267 --> 00:34:27,499 IV: So going up today, ah did there any things come back to you? 349 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:29,066 Did you recog.., could you recognize anything? 350 00:34:29,067 --> 00:34:36,732 TS: Ah, I, I've sort of recognized it, but maybe it was just ah intuition, I don't know. 351 00:34:36,733 --> 00:34:42,166 But I found a cell, which was about the size of the cell that I was in. 352 00:34:42,167 --> 00:34:44,632 And I was with a group. 353 00:34:44,633 --> 00:34:46,899 And I tried to get everybody in a cell. 354 00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:52,999 At, I, I asked everybody to come in there, see what it feels like to be, crowded, but 355 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,666 some people just didn't want to come in {laughing}. 356 00:34:56,667 --> 00:35:02,199 Yeah, but we're, we were about twenty of us in a cell and it was half full. 357 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:06,966 Ah, I couldn't get, w.., couldn't get everybody else in. 358 00:35:06,967 --> 00:35:08,299 I was trying to direct them. 359 00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:17,266 IV: Yeah, so ah up to now, you've been talking, ah telling a lot of facts. 360 00:35:17,267 --> 00:35:23,666 So, what about, ah at this time ah sixty-five years, seventy years go back.. 361 00:35:23,667 --> 00:35:25,499 TS: I.., I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry? 362 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:31,099 IV: Ah, ah, what do you think, how did you survive all these problems, 363 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:35,099 these terrible, saw the people dying and sort, had to march.. 364 00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:43,299 TS: I, I think I survived, because as a young man I was very active. 365 00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:47,399 I used to go hiking in a hills, in mountains for days 366 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:58,499 and d.., and nights and m.., marching or hiking or walking wasn't th.., something new for me. 367 00:35:58,500 --> 00:35:59,832 I was used to it. 368 00:35:59,833 --> 00:36:09,899 I, I c.., even today I w.. I at my age, I, I walk five, six miles a day or 369 00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:14,899 almost te.., eight kilometers, every day, I walk. 370 00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:16,532 I like to walk. 371 00:36:16,533 --> 00:36:20,332 And, I was in good physical, when I ent.., when they got me. 372 00:36:20,333 --> 00:36:22,999 I got, I was in good physical shape. 373 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:29,399 Ah, ah, when I told you that I worked for the Hungarian army in a, in a forced labor. 374 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:37,099 Ah and we, I developed muscles that I, I didn't even know I had. 375 00:36:37,100 --> 00:36:41,132 I, I was ah very good shape. 376 00:36:41,133 --> 00:36:41,299 IV: So in.. 377 00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:47,166 TS: And in, in Buchenwald first I lost weight, like everybody else. 378 00:36:47,167 --> 00:36:53,332 But working in, in a taylor workshop you got extra ra.., rations. We got a little extra food. 379 00:36:53,333 --> 00:36:55,566 More food than ev.., everybody else. 380 00:36:55,567 --> 00:37:03,332 So I wasn't as ah, ah as skinny as most people. 381 00:37:03,333 --> 00:37:06,332 IV: So ah the physical side is one side. 382 00:37:06,333 --> 00:37:08,332 But also the mentally side. 383 00:37:08,333 --> 00:37:13,999 How ah, you could manage what you see aro.. people dying and starving? 384 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:21,866 TS: Me.., mentally, a.., and I was thinking back peo.., people dying around me, it's ah 385 00:37:21,867 --> 00:37:23,499 you get used to it. 386 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:25,466 I, I hate to use the word. 387 00:37:25,467 --> 00:37:26,566 You, you got used to it. 388 00:37:26,567 --> 00:37:34,299 People died, ah, at, wh.., you develop immunity to that after a while, 389 00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:42,299 ah w.., w.., we did, people died next to me in Buchenwald and 390 00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:46,566 you close you.., your eyes and you close your mind. 391 00:37:46,567 --> 00:37:53,332 And ah, ah later on or anytime, during the march or anytime, 392 00:37:53,333 --> 00:38:00,066 I always thought about tomorrow, tom.., no.., not yesterday or the past, tomorrow. 393 00:38:00,067 --> 00:38:01,999 What, what am I gonna do tomorrow? 394 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,132 What I have to.. in, in camp we always use to joke this, 395 00:38:06,133 --> 00:38:09,799 as soon as we got our do.. bowl of soup ration. 396 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,666 What, what, what kind of soup we gonna get tomorrow? 397 00:38:12,667 --> 00:38:15,899 What, how, how much bread we will get tomorrow? 398 00:38:15,900 --> 00:38:22,666 Tomorrow, ah, one day, one day at a time. 399 00:38:22,667 --> 00:38:26,932 IV: And, later on you tried to forget? 400 00:38:26,933 --> 00:38:29,832 Or you tr.., had to talk about this? Or you tried to push it away? 401 00:38:29,833 --> 00:38:32,332 TS: Ah I.., right I am glad you asked that. 402 00:38:32,333 --> 00:38:35,132 At, later, I tried to forget everything. 403 00:38:35,133 --> 00:38:44,366 Nobody in America ever heard me say that I was a prisoner in, in a camp in Germany. 404 00:38:44,367 --> 00:38:46,832 I never talked about it to anybody. 405 00:38:46,833 --> 00:38:50,232 They knew I was a foreigner, I, I came from Europe. 406 00:38:50,233 --> 00:38:53,032 Ah, maybe they knew, I was a victim? 407 00:38:53,033 --> 00:38:54,532 But no more than that. 408 00:38:54,533 --> 00:39:00,599 And up to about eight to ten years ago, I wouldn't even talk about this. 409 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,066 I, you couldn't have made me to tell you anything 410 00:39:04,067 --> 00:39:07,266 what I told you today. I denied it. 411 00:39:07,267 --> 00:39:10,332 Why I don't know, but in my mind. 412 00:39:10,333 --> 00:39:17,399 My children didn't know about it and my wife didn't know about anything I told you today. 413 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,366 And it, I, it was out of my mind. 414 00:39:21,367 --> 00:39:25,866 I, ne.., I never thought of it. 415 00:39:25,867 --> 00:39:29,666 Well, if I thoght of it, I didn't know, I th.., I was thinking about it. 416 00:39:29,667 --> 00:39:37,332 And I wouldn't, ah only about the American, Ho.., ah, Holocaust Museum 417 00:39:37,333 --> 00:39:43,932 in, in United States found me about a year ago or less than a year ago. 418 00:39:43,933 --> 00:39:51,999 Up till then, most people didn't know, I was ever a prisoner in Germany. 419 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,999 IV: And so, when ah the Museum found out that you have been a victim, 420 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:02,166 ah why you did decide to change, ..? 421 00:40:02,167 --> 00:40:02,399 TS: I, I don't know. 422 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,566 IV: ..to start talking about? Or just to come here? 423 00:40:05,567 --> 00:40:08,432 TS: I don't know, it's a, came up very slowly. 424 00:40:08,433 --> 00:40:17,266 I, ah, even when I was invited to come to Flossenbürg and to Indersdorf I was hesitant. 425 00:40:17,267 --> 00:40:19,366 I wa.. I, I wasn't sure. 426 00:40:19,367 --> 00:40:26,432 I wasn't sure, if I want to come, come back, ah revive memories? 427 00:40:26,433 --> 00:40:28,499 They're not pleasant memories. 428 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:33,132 I didn't, I thought, just let it, let it go. 429 00:40:33,133 --> 00:40:38,799 But, my wife is more interested in my welfare than I am. 430 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,766 And she wanted to come here, more than I wanted to come here. 431 00:40:43,767 --> 00:40:48,999 And she is responsible for me sitting in this chair right now. 432 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,332 IV: And do you think she did a good job, bringing you here? 433 00:40:52,333 --> 00:40:59,499 TS: I, I better say she did, because she can hear me. 434 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:00,832 She, she did a good job. 435 00:41:00,833 --> 00:41:08,866 Ah after I came here, I went through ah, a.., all these memories. 436 00:41:08,867 --> 00:41:11,566 Ah, I'm glad I did, what I did. 437 00:41:11,567 --> 00:41:14,332 I'm glad I'm here. 438 00:41:14,333 --> 00:41:17,999 IV: So, thank you for sharing and telling, telling us your story. 439 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:24,166 TS: Thank, thank you. And I thank you for asking me. 440 00:41:24,167 --> 00:41:31,466 IV: Okay. And I hope you will have some good days still in Germany. 441 00:41:31,467 --> 00:41:32,632 When you are going back? 442 00:41:32,633 --> 00:41:35,999 You are staying some more days in Germany? 443 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:41,599 TS: Ah, we'll be here till Monday; on Monday we go to Prague for two days. 444 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:50,099 Ah we, we wanted to go longer, but my wife had to get back to work in time. 445 00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:54,866 Except, ah, ah two days before we came, she got fired, so {laughing}. 446 00:41:54,867 --> 00:41:58,732 Ha, {laughing} she doesn't have to go back {laughing}. 447 00:41:58,733 --> 00:42:05,032 She, no, no, no tragedy being fired, but she got, she got fired. 448 00:42:05,033 --> 00:42:10,567 IV: It's never nice to be fired. Never.