1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,299 IV: It's all running. 2 00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:07,966 Professor Knobloch, please tell me what you remember. 3 00:00:07,967 --> 00:00:11,232 Your first impressions of Flossenbürg. The arrival. 4 00:00:11,233 --> 00:00:15,999 You were arrested in Prague and brought to Weiden. 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,499 How did the story go from there? Why don't you tell us from here. 6 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:24,966 FK: Yes, we were hungry when we arrived in Flossenbürg. 7 00:00:24,967 --> 00:00:37,632 And when we got there, all the prisoners were...standing for roll call. 8 00:00:37,633 --> 00:00:51,266 And I think there were four fugitives with us who had been caught and came with us. 9 00:00:51,267 --> 00:01:04,899 And when they came with us, they had to holler: "hurray, hurray, we are back again." 10 00:01:04,900 --> 00:01:16,732 We went to the prisoner bath and it was very calm. 11 00:01:16,733 --> 00:01:31,466 The SS man spoke in a friendly way with a prisoner, who was a Jehovah's Witness. 12 00:01:31,467 --> 00:01:37,566 I don't know how I knew that he was a Jehovah's Witness. 13 00:01:37,567 --> 00:01:54,599 And everything was quiet and after the bath, the leader, the kapo said "Quiet!" 14 00:01:54,600 --> 00:02:00,432 And someone said something. 15 00:02:00,433 --> 00:02:11,532 And he went up to him and he slugged him, knocked him to the ground. 16 00:02:11,533 --> 00:02:28,632 And kicked him with his foot and all that without a word from the SS. 17 00:02:28,633 --> 00:03:02,666 So what we learned in this first moment was that [the man] in this situation was a professional criminal because he was wearing a green badge and that they controlled the situation. 18 00:03:02,667 --> 00:03:33,632 That the situation ...that this was self-administration, where the criminals made the decisions because... 19 00:03:33,633 --> 00:03:35,766 IV: And not the SS. 20 00:03:35,767 --> 00:03:44,199 That not only the SS had power, the criminals themselves had the power in these blocks. 21 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,599 FK: Sorry? 22 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:49,666 IV: The criminals, the green badges exercised power. 23 00:03:49,667 --> 00:04:07,899 FK: Yes, that is what I meant, that the criminals were in charge and the SS tolerated it. 24 00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:16,999 That was really self-administration by the criminals, yes... 25 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:25,666 IV. When you were finished in the baths, what happened...what happened to you then? 26 00:04:25,667 --> 00:04:30,266 You were...did you receive a prisoner number? What happened next? 27 00:04:30,267 --> 00:04:48,566 FK: They...we bathed, they shaved us, even the hair...yes, our hair and everything. 28 00:04:48,567 --> 00:05:07,532 And a few months later, I was taking a walk in the evening and I bumped into something. 29 00:05:07,533 --> 00:05:16,799 And it was a man hanging there. 30 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:31,799 That was after the evening roll call and it seemed to me that that man was one of the fugitives. 31 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:55,466 And our...the man that...handed out the food in the ... and afterwards brought out the dirt too. 32 00:05:55,467 --> 00:06:05,932 An Austrian there said that I was so startled when I walked into the dead man. 33 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:08,732 And he laughed and laughed. 34 00:06:08,733 --> 00:06:14,832 That was the atmosphere in the camp. 35 00:06:14,833 --> 00:06:18,632 IV: Can you tell me a bit about the daily life in the camp? 36 00:06:18,633 --> 00:06:18,999 FK: Yes... 37 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:24,232 IV: How you were housed, what the food was like, what clothes did you have... 38 00:06:24,233 --> 00:06:31,199 FK: Yes...the food, I remember. 39 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:53,100 It was usually bread, in the mornings, and then the most important food of the day was a soup. 40 00:07:00,467 --> 00:07:22,466 I worked in the sick barracks and Dr. Schnabel hated me. 41 00:07:22,467 --> 00:07:36,832 Probably because my name was Knobloch and he got angry when he smelled garlic [knoblauch]. 42 00:07:36,833 --> 00:07:42,266 IV: Can you tell me a bit about Dr. Schnabel? And about your work? 43 00:07:42,267 --> 00:07:45,432 You had been a medical student in Prague... 44 00:07:45,433 --> 00:07:50,632 And that is why you were assigned as an assistant in the sick barracks. 45 00:07:50,633 --> 00:07:56,999 Can you tell me what you did there, what your tasks were, and about Dr. Schnabel too? 46 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:03,399 FK: He was drunk a lot. 47 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:30,566 I... as a medical student...there were times when I was responsible for 75 patients. 48 00:08:30,567 --> 00:08:52,166 When he was drunk, he often declared that even very sick patients were healthy when they couldn't even walk. 49 00:08:52,167 --> 00:09:02,766 We had to carry them to their blocks. 50 00:09:02,767 --> 00:09:31,766 And that was sad because I know for example there was block eldest who ...wouldn't let them into the block... 51 00:09:31,767 --> 00:09:58,632 Even in winter he had them brought outside...and I even heard he had water poured on them so that they were dead in the morning. 52 00:09:58,633 --> 00:10:23,332 So that was Dr. Schnabel...he also had friendly moments, but...that was disasterous. 53 00:10:23,333 --> 00:10:28,866 IV: There was also a second doctor, Dr. Schmidt or Schmitz. 54 00:10:28,867 --> 00:10:30,066 FK: Yes, he... 55 00:10:30,067 --> 00:10:34,632 IV: He was a surgeon, I think, can you speak about what you experienced there? 56 00:10:34,633 --> 00:10:55,666 FK: He saw that Schnabel hated me so he was more friendly to me because they were...not friends. 57 00:10:55,667 --> 00:11:12,032 They were opponents... and so he was friendly to me. 58 00:11:12,033 --> 00:11:19,332 But also very moody. 59 00:11:19,333 --> 00:11:34,266 And...when I got typhus, it was not a surprise, since I was in recovery. 60 00:11:34,267 --> 00:12:05,232 And I had to visit the beds of three levels of patients, I had to crawl onto the beds and so it was easy for me to get lice...eh... 61 00:12:05,233 --> 00:12:08,699 IV: That you could get infected there. 62 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:13,932 FK: And I got infected with typhus. 63 00:12:13,933 --> 00:12:38,766 So on the day that I got out, I could barely stand up, and Dr. Schmitz said: "work hard!" 64 00:12:38,767 --> 00:13:13,966 It was a...I was at the tuberculosis block...don't know why, it was my Czech friends, doctors sent me from recovery to the infirmary barrack. 65 00:13:13,967 --> 00:13:35,099 There were even beds there, we were covered but they put me in a place where there was warmth. 66 00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:56,966 And I was...I was dying. 67 00:13:56,967 --> 00:14:15,966 So they brought me to the tuberculosis block where the people often die. 68 00:14:15,967 --> 00:14:32,499 A man helped me there, I couldn't stand up, he helped me. 69 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:50,466 An older man, who had been castrated for homosexuality, supposedly from the Messer Solingen family. 70 00:14:50,467 --> 00:15:00,966 He helped me and...a short time later he died. 71 00:15:00,967 --> 00:15:07,032 IV: Could you tell me more about Dr. Schmitz. 72 00:15:07,033 --> 00:15:13,899 He also conducted operations...what else did he do as a surgeon in the camp? 73 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:34,899 FK: Yes, well...he carried out unnecessary operations. 74 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:50,466 And I think, both the doctors did operations, as far as I recall. 75 00:15:50,467 --> 00:16:15,099 And once a young patient came in with stomach pain and the doctor said: "This is the second time you are here. Operation." 76 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:36,066 And he said "Billroth-2 is the ... best for the stomach" 77 00:16:36,067 --> 00:16:44,932 As far as I know he was executed. Yes? 78 00:16:44,933 --> 00:16:51,599 IV: You too were a doctor and psychiatrist your whole life. 79 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:52,999 FK: What? 80 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,632 IV: You were a psychiatrist your entire life. Professor of Psychiatry. 81 00:16:57,633 --> 00:16:59,232 FK: Why did I... 82 00:16:59,233 --> 00:17:05,699 IV: When you think back on this moment, on these doctors. 83 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:09,166 How would you categorize them from their psychological structure? 84 00:17:09,167 --> 00:17:13,366 What do you think, what kind of doctors were they that worked like that? 85 00:17:13,367 --> 00:17:24,999 FK: Yes... what I think of their mental state? Yes? 86 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,766 IV: Yes. 87 00:17:26,767 --> 00:17:58,899 FK: I think what is important is...the influence of the whole atmosphere, that turned more or less normal people into criminals. 88 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:17,799 And that was not just with the two of them, but with masses of people in Germany. 89 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:44,199 Even religious people, who if they didn't protest, were lured into committing crimes. 90 00:18:44,200 --> 00:19:00,566 There were exceptions, for example an SS man who was very humane and... 91 00:19:00,567 --> 00:19:33,966 But these people let themselves be seduced into criminal situations that the state...created. 92 00:19:33,967 --> 00:19:39,766 IV: How were you personally, mentally, in this situation. 93 00:19:39,767 --> 00:19:40,999 CM: Yes. 94 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,066 IV: Yes? One moment, We'll say in a moment - 95 00:19:44,067 --> 00:19:53,332 IV: How did you manage? You were in a rather privileged situation in this barrack...sick barrack. 96 00:19:53,333 --> 00:19:56,866 But you witnessed these crimes. 97 00:19:56,867 --> 00:20:00,066 This death, you were also sick, close to death. 98 00:20:00,067 --> 00:20:04,966 How did you manage mentally in this situation? 99 00:20:04,967 --> 00:20:18,366 FK Mentally...full of hope that I would see my wife again. 100 00:20:18,367 --> 00:20:23,132 Of course that didn't happen. 101 00:20:23,133 --> 00:20:37,999 My first wife was Jewish and I tried to rescue her, through marriage. 102 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:56,366 Her parents died just after we married, on the same day, probably in the gas. 103 00:20:56,367 --> 00:21:03,199 And I rescued her for a year. 104 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:12,466 She died about a half year after we were arrested. 105 00:21:12,467 --> 00:21:32,399 And we...we were arrested because we helped our Jewish friends live illegally in Prague. 106 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:52,232 They didn't prove anything, but I was dangerous to the Reich since I had married a Jew. 107 00:21:52,233 --> 00:21:57,966 IV: And they separated you from your wife after your arrest. 108 00:21:57,967 --> 00:22:13,499 FK: Yes, of course. She went to Bohemia..what was it called? 109 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:30,699 And...yes, and then to...Auschwitz...and she died the same year. 110 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:47,399 She was very...healthy and athletic....but she died. 111 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:53,799 IV: And so you went directly from Prague via Weiden to Flossenbürg...your wife... 112 00:22:53,800 --> 00:23:03,999 FK: Yes...I was in prison for a quarter of a year in Prague and then to Flossenbürg. 113 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,766 And I stayed there til the end. 114 00:23:08,767 --> 00:23:12,599 IV: Do you recall the liberation? 115 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,066 What happened? You were there up to the end. 116 00:23:16,067 --> 00:23:30,066 FK: Yes, well, uh.. it was...the... 117 00:23:30,067 --> 00:23:44,766 There was a lot of shooting close to the camp. 118 00:23:44,767 --> 00:24:19,299 And then we went to the...uh..gate and the American cars were there and a soldier, with...gum... 119 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:20,232 IV: Chewing gum. 120 00:24:20,233 --> 00:24:40,266 FK: {Laughs} Yes...and didn't say anything...and the people were very...very...neutral..the people were very happy. 121 00:24:40,267 --> 00:25:00,299 But afterwards some of them...died...it was typhus and other illnesses. 122 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:08,732 IV: More than 30,000 prisoners died in Flossenbürg. 123 00:25:08,733 --> 00:25:09,466 FK: Yes. 124 00:25:09,467 --> 00:25:14,899 IV: Do you have any idea how you managed to survive? 125 00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:16,599 FK: What helped me? 126 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,266 IV: What helped you and how you managed to survive. 127 00:25:21,267 --> 00:25:58,232 FK: The best thing was having hope and of course...it helped that my mother was able to send some food. 128 00:25:58,233 --> 00:26:26,399 And I even...had food that could make me fat...I ate very modestly. 129 00:26:26,400 --> 00:27:03,566 And the most important thing was that I recognized the power of the group in the camp, the murderous and saving force of the group. 130 00:27:03,567 --> 00:27:17,599 And this was reflected in the theory of my psychothereapy, the integrative psychotherapy. 131 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:26,866 IV: Could you say a few more words about that? 132 00:27:26,867 --> 00:27:33,066 What the power of the group meant or the murderous brutality of the group in Flossenbürg. 133 00:27:33,067 --> 00:28:00,966 FK: Yes, yes it was...it was always people who hurt themselves and... 134 00:28:00,967 --> 00:28:15,266 On the one side was groups, mostly from the same country. 135 00:28:15,267 --> 00:28:41,366 And on the other side were people who..although they didn't want it, did things that made the others not friendly but hostile. 136 00:28:41,367 --> 00:29:01,199 Were so individual, so isolated that they didn't get any help from others and the help from others was so important. 137 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:08,999 Yes, it is "self-defeating behavior". 138 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:31,232 Don't know...different in German..it means that without meaning to you do something that makes others act unfriendly. 139 00:29:31,233 --> 00:29:33,999 IV: I am not sure how that is translated. 140 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:34,999 FK: What? 141 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,833 IV: I am not sure how to translate that.