1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,332 IV: They stopped the singing. 2 00:00:01,333 --> 00:00:01,832 ZF: Okay. 3 00:00:01,833 --> 00:00:02,499 IV: Going away. 4 00:00:02,500 --> 00:00:03,999 We can, can go on. 5 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:04,666 ZF: Okay, alright. 6 00:00:04,667 --> 00:00:05,666 IV: So, yeah, so we stopped.. 7 00:00:05,667 --> 00:00:06,532 ZF: Are we a.. 8 00:00:06,533 --> 00:00:08,666 IV: At the moment you arrived here in Flossenbürg. 9 00:00:08,667 --> 00:00:09,132 ZF: Well right. 10 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:11,932 IV: So you, you have been, you have still been together with your brother? 11 00:00:11,933 --> 00:00:14,999 ZF: Right, I was together all the time with my brother. 12 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:20,532 The only time we were separated was during the march out of Buna. 13 00:00:20,533 --> 00:00:21,099 IV: Mh {confirming}. 14 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:27,666 ZF: And as I said, he was the first, I, he was the last of the first 3.000, I was the first of the second 3.000. 15 00:00:27,667 --> 00:00:31,666 And then in this huge barn where we came to, where we stopped.. 16 00:00:31,667 --> 00:00:32,332 IV: Yes. 17 00:00:32,333 --> 00:00:33,999 ZF: Eh we found each other. 18 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,732 IV: Yeah. 19 00:00:34,733 --> 00:00:36,999 ZF: And, and from then on, we were together. 20 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,166 The only time in Flossenbürg, we were in the same block, but in different section of the block. 21 00:00:44,167 --> 00:00:46,532 There were two, two, one room up front. 22 00:00:46,533 --> 00:00:50,866 One room in the back, so, eh, eh and the situation was the same in both rooms. 23 00:00:50,867 --> 00:00:56,332 And I was very happy who, that he was separated, because I did not want to see him suffer. 24 00:00:56,333 --> 00:00:59,999 And I presumed he, he felt the same way. 25 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,666 So that is eh we were separated. 26 00:01:02,667 --> 00:01:09,866 Eh, eh but anyway Flossenbürg, one of the things I do not remember about it, what food we were given. 27 00:01:09,867 --> 00:01:21,332 But, as I was, told you, as I told you before, we, we, we were, there was not much room and we are sleeping 8 persons to a bed, to a bunk. 28 00:01:21,333 --> 00:01:27,666 And there were three bunks so there were 24 people in, in, in a bunk bed. 29 00:01:27,667 --> 00:01:32,332 So it was, we are almost, but anyway it was and we were in each other laps and we were full of lice. 30 00:01:32,333 --> 00:01:44,666 And, and eh so during the night when some of us tried to sleep on the floor the Blockältester came in with eh some sort of a stick. 31 00:01:44,667 --> 00:01:49,166 And he would beat us to go back to bed, because he had to keep order. 32 00:01:49,167 --> 00:02:02,699 And he, he, he, he was not really truely bad person, other than that, but eh he, he had eh a young boy who was playing the accordion all the time which I remember. 33 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:08,332 But anyway he, he, he,he, he said this to us at one point in order to discipline us. 34 00:02:08,333 --> 00:02:15,332 He said, eh I do not remember the first part he says, that "I am in the camp, because I am not a National Socialist.". 35 00:02:15,333 --> 00:02:18,999 But he said it, eh and I could say it now in German: 36 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,066 "Ich bin aber eine Deutsche. 37 00:02:21,067 --> 00:02:23,999 Und ich werde euch zeigen, ihr verfluchte Saujuden." 38 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:33,832 Eh, eh in any case, I, I asked the person, eh one of our guides, whether there were any.. 39 00:02:33,833 --> 00:02:38,899 He said that there are Poles and other nationalities here in, who came to the memorial. 40 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:41,899 Were there any Germans who came? 41 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:47,466 And he said, they are very all, all old and they most, most of them died. 42 00:02:47,467 --> 00:02:49,632 And he was older, he was older, right. 43 00:02:49,633 --> 00:02:57,799 Eh that there were, there were people who were sent to the Russian front, if they were young enough instead of a, a camp eh. 44 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,999 In fact even some Germans from.. 45 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:11,866 By, by the way, going back again in Buna the, the, the, the Germans prisoners were both, Verbrechers and political prisoners like homosexuals. 46 00:03:11,867 --> 00:03:22,999 Eh, eh were, were eh, eh the eh in sort of in charge of the camp the Blockältester, the huge Lagerältester who was an bad guy. 47 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,666 He, he, he, he, he was of course German. 48 00:03:26,667 --> 00:03:28,166 I do remember that. 49 00:03:28,167 --> 00:03:38,199 Eh so, so, so eh some of them were quite good in fact that this guy in block 7, he tried to do everything for the people. 50 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,166 Eh and I think he finally went to the Russian front. 51 00:03:42,167 --> 00:03:50,132 But eh so okay go, going back to Inder.., to, to Flossenbürg. 52 00:03:50,133 --> 00:03:52,399 IV: Flossenbürg, maybe in the beginning, when you.. 53 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:52,999 CM: Michael. 54 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:53,366 IV: Ja. 55 00:03:53,367 --> 00:03:58,532 CM: Eh die Beschreibung von dem, von seinem, da war ich jetzt schlecht. 56 00:03:58,533 --> 00:04:01,966 Die hat sich verschoben, die Kamera. 57 00:04:01,967 --> 00:04:07,332 Nur bei der Beschreibung eh wie der, der Räumlichkeiten halt. 58 00:04:07,333 --> 00:04:09,999 IV: Ah, ja, also wie sie geschlafen haben oder so? 59 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,932 CM: Ob sein Bruder da war. 60 00:04:11,933 --> 00:04:15,099 IV: Okay, so we had a little problem with the camera. 61 00:04:15,100 --> 00:04:15,199 ZF: Okay. 62 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,732 IV: So we can, you can tell the story with the beds again? 63 00:04:18,733 --> 00:04:20,199 ZF: Oh, yes, okay. 64 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:21,999 CM: Da war und dieser Teil da. 65 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,532 IV: Yeah, and so, eh maybe let us, let us start a little bit when you arrived, you and your brother here. 66 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:33,999 Do you have any, you can remember eh what happened in the beginning when you came to the camp? 67 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,599 ZF: Yeah, no I do not remember. 68 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:39,599 I, they, it, they must have gone to the showers and... 69 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,466 Yeah one of the things that they did even in Buna is delousing. 70 00:04:43,467 --> 00:04:46,632 They schmierd us with some horribly smelling chemical. 71 00:04:46,633 --> 00:04:52,632 Eh but, but by the time we came to Flossenbürg they did not bother with that. 72 00:04:52,633 --> 00:04:55,932 Because in, until then we did not have any lice. 73 00:04:55,933 --> 00:04:58,332 In Flossenbürg we had lots of lice. 74 00:04:58,333 --> 00:05:01,999 So eh they, they must not have done it. 75 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:02,999 Okay so, you, you want me to go through.. 76 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:08,132 IV: Okay, to tell a bit how, how the camp, how, how you have been living in the camp, in the house, in the beds.. 77 00:05:08,133 --> 00:05:11,099 ZF: Okay, okay, what, one mo.., yeah. 78 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:14,666 There, there was not much room in the camp, in, in the block. 79 00:05:14,667 --> 00:05:23,732 Eh because eh all, all camps were evacuated and, and the, the ring got tighter and tighter. 80 00:05:23,733 --> 00:05:32,999 So you eh in, in the camp, in, in Flossenbürg we were, we were 8 to, people to a bunk. 81 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,199 We were sitting in each others lap. 82 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:36,999 And we could not sleep. 83 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:47,099 And at night we tried to, some of us tried to sleep on the floor and the Blockältester came in and he would hit us to go back to bed. 84 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:57,732 And, and in order to discipline us he was saying, eh at one time, eh that he is, he is in the camp, because he is not a national socialist. 85 00:05:57,733 --> 00:06:01,199 But then, and I am, I am saying it in German: 86 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:02,466 "Ich bin aber eine Deutsche. 87 00:06:02,467 --> 00:06:05,332 Und ich werde euch zeigen, ihr verfluchte Saujuden." 88 00:06:05,333 --> 00:06:11,599 And eh, so I do not remember what food we were given in the camp. 89 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,166 No we were not eh, we, I did not stay long in Flossenbürg. 90 00:06:15,167 --> 00:06:16,799 I mean, I was just a guest there {laughing}. 91 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:17,632 IV: Mh {confirming}. 92 00:06:17,633 --> 00:06:19,032 ZF: Latecomer. 93 00:06:19,033 --> 00:06:21,666 IV: Yeah, do you remember how many days or weeks you have been here? 94 00:06:21,667 --> 00:06:23,532 ZF: May.., maybe several weeks. 95 00:06:23,533 --> 00:06:25,332 Maybe a month or so. 96 00:06:25,333 --> 00:06:29,832 And then, when they evacuated Flossenbürg we started out by train. 97 00:06:29,833 --> 00:06:31,299 Eh.. 98 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:37,132 IV: So, just before eh the evacuation, eh, eh in the camp you had to work also? 99 00:06:37,133 --> 00:06:38,199 ZF: No, no work. 100 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:39,432 There was no work for us. 101 00:06:39,433 --> 00:06:41,132 There was no work for us. 102 00:06:41,133 --> 00:06:41,466 IV: Mh {confirming}. 103 00:06:41,467 --> 00:06:46,432 ZF: Whatsoever, we did, we just, in, we did not work in Oranienburg either. 104 00:06:46,433 --> 00:06:46,666 IV: Mh {confirming}. 105 00:06:46,667 --> 00:06:49,466 ZF: The only place were we worked is, is in Buna. 106 00:06:49,467 --> 00:06:50,799 Yeah, b.., but.., 107 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,332 IV: And can you remember some things, what happened to you in Flossenbürg? 108 00:06:54,333 --> 00:06:55,732 You just have been here for a month. 109 00:06:55,733 --> 00:06:58,766 Eh you, so what happened to the people? 110 00:06:58,767 --> 00:07:01,199 How was the condition of the people? 111 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:01,399 ZF: Oh the, the.., 112 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,666 IV: Did you see any cruelties, hangings or so? 113 00:07:03,667 --> 00:07:05,499 ZF: No, I, I did not see any hangings. 114 00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:07,766 I did not see any c.., any cruelty. 115 00:07:07,767 --> 00:07:11,266 Except the fact that we had to sleep 8 to a bed. 116 00:07:11,267 --> 00:07:13,299 I mean, eh that is cruelty enough. 117 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:17,399 Eh but I, I did not see any, like, like this Blockältester. 118 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,032 I mean he would not hit us for no reason whatsoever. 119 00:07:20,033 --> 00:07:25,099 Only when we, we were out of, out of the bed, trying and to lie on the floor. 120 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:28,532 And I do not remember the food we were given in Flossenbürg. 121 00:07:28,533 --> 00:07:37,332 Bu.., but eh when F.., when, I guess when the Allied, the Americans came, they evacuated Flossenbürg. 122 00:07:37,333 --> 00:07:40,466 By the way, we did not know who is coming and who is.. 123 00:07:40,467 --> 00:07:45,999 And for a while we were hoping that we were, we, we'll survive and we are liberated. 124 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:57,432 But it got, the hope got sort of suppressed for a while, because we saw that and, and we thought that they will never let us alive in the hands of the Allies and like that. 125 00:07:57,433 --> 00:08:00,999 We will, we will, we will die in, in, in one way or the other. 126 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:10,499 But anyway, we, we started evacuating Flossenbürg, eh we started in trains with, with a, freight trains. 127 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:16,766 And we were sitting on the floor, eh I do not know it, it was not horribly crowded, but it was quite crowded. 128 00:08:16,767 --> 00:08:22,399 And when we arrived in Schwarzenfeld we were strafed. 129 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,266 I think it was American planes. 130 00:08:24,267 --> 00:08:35,366 And in, in, in, in the train, in the waggon, there were I was in, I noticed that all the people are staying on one side. 131 00:08:35,367 --> 00:08:36,932 They are coming to, to my side. 132 00:08:36,933 --> 00:08:48,332 And I did not understand well, but the strafing angle was such, that on one side of the train, eh the bullets hit and I saw one, one man, one person. 133 00:08:48,333 --> 00:08:56,032 By the way, there were only men, I mean, I have not seen a woman since the eh in Oranienburg or Flossenbürg. 134 00:08:56,033 --> 00:09:01,332 Eh his jaw was hanging and some of them others were injured, too. 135 00:09:01,333 --> 00:09:09,132 And the SS let us, after a while, when they kept strafing, to get out of the train. 136 00:09:09,133 --> 00:09:14,199 And I ran into, we were run, first to run to towards the grass. 137 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,366 Eh and I ty.., started, we started eating grass of some sort. 138 00:09:18,367 --> 00:09:22,632 But eh then I ran into the vi.., village. 139 00:09:22,633 --> 00:09:25,032 The village was not far away, eh Schwarzenfeld. 140 00:09:25,033 --> 00:09:32,166 And I found six eggs, which I brought with me and, and I shared it with my brother and with some friends. 141 00:09:32,167 --> 00:09:35,099 And I think that is part of the reason I am {laughing} alive. 142 00:09:35,100 --> 00:09:41,299 Eh, eh raw eggs I us.., I do not like raw eggs, but at that time {laughing} it did not matter. 143 00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:52,332 Eh, eh so bu.., but the thing was that the people next, in the next waggon, got some potatoes and they build a fire. 144 00:09:52,333 --> 00:09:56,999 And I think eh the people who were, build the fire, were shot. 145 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,799 Eh so anyway, we started going by foot. 146 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,999 After, after the, the locomotive was shot out. 147 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,332 And we, we ran through the forest. 148 00:10:06,333 --> 00:10:09,332 Eh mostly we marched mostly at night. 149 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:13,999 And we saw all this silver strips against the planes. 150 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,332 Eh, eh anyway, we marched at night. 151 00:10:16,333 --> 00:10:23,799 And the, the, the, the road, the side of the road was strewn with deads. 152 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,599 Anybody who could not go any further was shot. 153 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,999 There was one, must have been one sadist, and these were not SS they were older people. 154 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,066 Because some of the young SS were sent to the Russian front. 155 00:10:34,067 --> 00:10:39,332 So one of them for some reason, he, he must have been horrible person. 156 00:10:39,333 --> 00:10:42,932 They assure that who ever lies down gets shot. 157 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:44,966 They, they shot them in the neck. 158 00:10:44,967 --> 00:10:50,732 And eh most of the other guards, did not, they did not mind. 159 00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:51,666 They did not do that. 160 00:10:51,667 --> 00:10:53,332 But they did not mind. 161 00:10:53,333 --> 00:10:58,732 So, whe.., whe.., I, I think I had sort of wooden shoes. 162 00:10:58,733 --> 00:11:05,999 My, my brother eh and I discussed lying down, because we knew, we wanted to lie down together. 163 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,332 But we, of course, we decided against it. 164 00:11:08,333 --> 00:11:09,699 And we just kept going. 165 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:11,199 We, we slept in the forrest. 166 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,199 And then finally we came to a huge barn, again a barn. 167 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,199 I guess, because it is a good place to st.., they have to store a lot of people. 168 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:27,132 And we, we were resting there, when suddenly we heared the ratatata of the machine guns. 169 00:11:27,133 --> 00:11:31,866 And eh suddenly the SS disappeared and we ran out. 170 00:11:31,867 --> 00:11:45,932 And, and as we ran out, the, the, the, the tanks with white stars, I think at this stage I know it was the American third Army (???), eh took over us. 171 00:11:45,933 --> 00:11:47,132 And they, they were shooting. 172 00:11:47,133 --> 00:11:51,966 I think they would, shooting, trace of bullets mostly along the side. 173 00:11:51,967 --> 00:11:55,399 And they mov.., told us to go back, back, back and we ran back. 174 00:11:55,400 --> 00:12:02,399 At first eh we, we took some raw potatoes and tried to eat them, because we saw it on the field. 175 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:09,466 But then the, the American soldiers eh threw eh chocolates and other stuff at us. 176 00:12:09,467 --> 00:12:15,799 And we, as we ran back and finally came to eh a.., again to some sort of a farm. 177 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:22,466 Then we found some milk and we drank it and fortunately we did not got sick. 178 00:12:22,467 --> 00:12:25,732 By we, I mean my brother, people were separated. 179 00:12:25,733 --> 00:12:28,932 I mean everybody ran sort of helter skelter. 180 00:12:28,933 --> 00:12:37,399 And eh we slept in this place, I think maybe it was a stable anyway to gather for warmth. 181 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,666 Eh because it was late spring. 182 00:12:39,667 --> 00:12:43,032 Eh and it was still cold when we were liberated. 183 00:12:43,033 --> 00:12:53,999 And wo.., o.., on the way, by the way, I had these wooden shoes, eh a tank stopped and he had some prisoners of war. 184 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,066 I, I, I think it must have been German officers, prisoners of war now. 185 00:12:58,067 --> 00:13:07,332 And he called me over and he made the, this a, eh it must have been an officer, because they had beautiful boots, made him take off his boots and give it to me. 186 00:13:07,333 --> 00:13:08,932 And exchanged for my wooden shoes. 187 00:13:08,933 --> 00:13:12,466 {breathing} {laughing} That is a {breathing} slight revenge. 188 00:13:12,467 --> 00:13:15,999 I, I mean, I, I did not do, I did not participate in any revenge. 189 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,732 But some, some did. 190 00:13:17,733 --> 00:13:21,932 Mo.., mostly people who were in better shape than us. 191 00:13:21,933 --> 00:13:26,732 Eh like Russians they, they did kill some, some of the guards. 192 00:13:26,733 --> 00:13:28,866 I, I, I did not know that. 193 00:13:28,867 --> 00:13:31,066 Eh I, we just walked back. 194 00:13:31,067 --> 00:13:34,532 And finally we came to this place, Stulln. 195 00:13:34,533 --> 00:13:36,999 And there was a camp there. 196 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,699 I do not know whether eh it, it was part of Flossenbürg or no? 197 00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:41,499 Anyway there was a camp. 198 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:44,732 But when I came there, there were Russian prisoners of war there. 199 00:13:44,733 --> 00:13:46,732 And we were given some food. 200 00:13:46,733 --> 00:13:48,932 And then we met some other people. 201 00:13:48,933 --> 00:13:57,799 There was an American Army eh Bay, eh, eh a transportation company. 202 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:13,799 And eh jew.., Jewish soldier came to us and, and gave me and a bunch of eh Serbian, ex Serbian prisoners of war who, who were treated, I mean com.., compared to us they look, they were in great shape. 203 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:19,766 They eh no.., not all, and for example the British prisoners, looked in great shape. 204 00:14:19,767 --> 00:14:23,532 Although somebody who wrote a book about it what, that they, had their problems. 205 00:14:23,533 --> 00:14:26,666 But they did not take this food at the, they were given. 206 00:14:26,667 --> 00:14:28,166 They g.., gave it to us. 207 00:14:28,167 --> 00:14:35,932 So the Serbian prisoners were, anyway, we got eh this job in the Army eh with the Army. 208 00:14:35,933 --> 00:14:38,666 And we was great, because we had great food. 209 00:14:38,667 --> 00:14:41,532 Eh which we sort of we shared. 210 00:14:41,533 --> 00:14:44,799 We, what we did, we did KP, you know, kitchen privileges. 211 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,966 Kitchen, k.., k.., eh we washed the, we help out in the kitchen that sort of stuff. 212 00:14:50,967 --> 00:14:53,466 Wash dishes and so on. 213 00:14:53,467 --> 00:14:57,099 And I, I went into, to Schwarzenfeld once. 214 00:14:57,100 --> 00:15:00,866 And eh anyway, we were in this camp. 215 00:15:00,867 --> 00:15:08,666 And from this camp we went to Schw.., Schwandorf, where they, eh they had, we stayed in a Hotel, in a huge Hotel. 216 00:15:08,667 --> 00:15:15,699 And from Schwandorf finally we went to Indersdorf, you.., you.., younger people. 217 00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:20,166 But I, just this again, after the war. 218 00:15:20,167 --> 00:15:26,732 Eh from Indersdorf I decided, my brother stayed in Indersdorf, I decided to go back to Romania. 219 00:15:26,733 --> 00:15:39,032 And that was relatively easy. Relatively, because I attached myself to a, a train, which took home Hungarian ex, ex, well prisoners of war, ex-prisoners of war. 220 00:15:39,033 --> 00:15:43,666 And then in Budapest, from Budapest I went to Romania to my home. 221 00:15:43,667 --> 00:15:45,666 But I saw a lot of people. 222 00:15:45,667 --> 00:15:49,266 A lot of young people who from, who were liberated from the camp. 223 00:15:49,267 --> 00:16:00,266 Of the, the people who, who I saw, some relatives, some people form the village were in a range between, say 16 to 30 years. 224 00:16:00,267 --> 00:16:03,532 Within another range, they, they did not survive. 225 00:16:03,533 --> 00:16:05,666 And there were women, too, also. 226 00:16:05,667 --> 00:16:09,332 The first time I saw a Jewish woman, because I thought they were all killed. 227 00:16:09,333 --> 00:16:12,399 After a while I did, I was hoping that my family did survive. 228 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:23,199 Eh but eh, eh okay, eh s.., but, but eh then I saw. 229 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,999 And there of course, there were a lot of. 230 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:29,932 Then I went back as, there were Jewish women, lots of women who also survived. 231 00:16:29,933 --> 00:16:31,466 Also between that range. 232 00:16:31,467 --> 00:16:34,332 Unfortunately a lot of them died of typhoid. 233 00:16:34,333 --> 00:16:36,166 Yeah, I, I was lucky. 234 00:16:36,167 --> 00:16:42,599 Anyway, going back to eh Indersdorf was very hard, very difficult. 235 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:44,532 Was very adventurous at this stage. 236 00:16:44,533 --> 00:16:46,999 I am looking at this as an adventure. 237 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,599 We had to cross from Hungary to Romania where the guards were bribed. 238 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,466 And they, they put on a show to guide, to get as much things out of us as possible. 239 00:16:57,467 --> 00:16:59,699 They collect some of the jewellery there. 240 00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:08,332 Eh and then from eh from, from Hungary we had to go to the Russian zone of Austria. 241 00:17:08,333 --> 00:17:11,299 Which we went out, through mountains. 242 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:15,099 Eh because the Hungarians were bribed, but not the Russians. 243 00:17:15,100 --> 00:17:20,132 And so then and from the, from the Russians zone of Austria to the British zone of Austria. 244 00:17:20,133 --> 00:17:22,799 British zone of Austria, the American zone of Austria. 245 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,799 From the American zone of Austria go back to Indersdorf. 246 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,566 It is all, eh went back. 247 00:17:27,567 --> 00:17:30,966 And I might as well tell you the rest of the story. 248 00:17:30,967 --> 00:17:38,499 {laughing} Eh it was an (???) effort, two years, and I came to the United States in 1947 where my father had two brothers and two sisters. 249 00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,299 My grandfather, at least so I have lots of relatives. 250 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:43,399 We went to school there, evening school. 251 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:43,999 I worked. 252 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,332 Got a degree in e.., in electrical engineering. 253 00:17:47,333 --> 00:17:50,332 Eh at first at night and then during the day. 254 00:17:50,333 --> 00:17:54,399 And finally I came to Cal.., eh worked in my field. 255 00:17:54,400 --> 00:18:01,466 I came to California in 1962 at the Stanford Linear Accelerator where, where I worked ever since. 256 00:18:01,467 --> 00:18:03,732 And I am still going into work. 257 00:18:03,733 --> 00:18:06,266 So that is my story in a nutshell {laughing}. 258 00:18:06,267 --> 00:18:09,666 IV: Yeah, so eh two last questions. 259 00:18:09,667 --> 00:18:10,266 ZF: Right. 260 00:18:10,267 --> 00:18:13,932 IV: So one is, coming back eh, eh to the marches. 261 00:18:13,933 --> 00:18:14,166 ZF: Yes. 262 00:18:14,167 --> 00:18:19,566 IV: Do you remember when you started from here or when you started eh when the train broke down. 263 00:18:19,567 --> 00:18:20,999 How many people you have been on the march? 264 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,666 ZF: Yeah, yeah a, the march, may.., maybe about 200 people. 265 00:18:25,667 --> 00:18:25,999 IV: Mh {confirming}. 266 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,666 ZF: I, I, I estimate. 267 00:18:27,667 --> 00:18:31,266 Yeah and we were marching, about 200 people. 268 00:18:31,267 --> 00:18:33,332 I do not know whether two groups of a 100. 269 00:18:33,333 --> 00:18:36,599 The, the, the, my best estimate is about 200 people. 270 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:42,799 I, I do not know, I think maybe not half of them, maybe a quarter of them were killed on the, on the march. 271 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:44,666 They were shot. 272 00:18:44,667 --> 00:18:50,999 IV: And what happened to, when you got liberated, what happened to the people who have been accompanying you? 273 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:51,832 Who watched you? 274 00:18:51,833 --> 00:18:52,666 These soldiers. 275 00:18:52,667 --> 00:18:53,332 They run away.. 276 00:18:53,333 --> 00:18:53,999 ZF: They run away. 277 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:54,932 They run away. 278 00:18:54,933 --> 00:18:56,332 Yeah, they disappeared. 279 00:18:56,333 --> 00:18:57,599 They run away. 280 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,332 They disappeared. 281 00:18:58,333 --> 00:19:00,332 Yeah we did not, just we did not see. 282 00:19:00,333 --> 00:19:01,999 Suddenly they disappeared. 283 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:02,699 IV: Yeah. 284 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,399 ZF: And we, it took us a little time to realize that we are free. 285 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,332 And it was very, I was very elated. 286 00:19:09,333 --> 00:19:15,199 I mean, we knew, I mean we were close to death and we were alive and that was a great thing {laughing}. 287 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:24,999 Eh some people of course where, we were traumatized, but that, that thing was very great thing. 288 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,699 Very happy to, to be liberated. 289 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:31,399 But of course the problem was that our family did not survive. 290 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:37,299 And there, that eh by the way, I never knew the time when they died. 291 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,266 I, at, at the beginning ha.., hope, against hope. 292 00:19:40,267 --> 00:19:42,532 That somehow to some miracle, they survived. 293 00:19:42,533 --> 00:19:53,932 And it never suddenly, did not knew when, when they died, but slowly like in technical language asymptoticaly, finally I realized that eh that they were killed. 294 00:19:53,933 --> 00:19:56,299 They, eh I. 295 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:57,999 IV: And so the last question. 296 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:04,966 So telling the story, most of the time we have been talking about facts not about emotions. 297 00:20:04,967 --> 00:20:05,499 ZF: No. 298 00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:06,332 IV: What do you think? 299 00:20:06,333 --> 00:20:09,666 Eh you have been, so not a child anymore, but you are young. 300 00:20:09,667 --> 00:20:11,866 ZF: No, yeah, teenager, la.., late teenager. 301 00:20:11,867 --> 00:20:13,432 IV: Teenager. 302 00:20:13,433 --> 00:20:20,366 So, so seeing, eh yeah, making this experience and seeing the things happening around you. 303 00:20:20,367 --> 00:20:22,199 How did you feel all this time? 304 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,666 What happened to your, yeah, to your soul, to you? 305 00:20:24,667 --> 00:20:30,332 ZF: Yeah, right, well it definitely effected me emotionally, naturally. 306 00:20:30,333 --> 00:20:36,666 Eh in, in the camp in a way, all we ever concerned is staying alive, in the beginning. 307 00:20:36,667 --> 00:20:45,332 And, and, and we, but, but then, the, the, the, I, the realization that my family did not survive. 308 00:20:45,333 --> 00:20:48,499 I had a physical pain for a while. 309 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,199 Eventually I reconciled myself to it. 310 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,332 I mean, I, I accepted it, but eh.. 311 00:20:54,333 --> 00:21:02,266 Also there are a lot of people who were after the liberation eh said they, they want to find a Jewish woman and marry. 312 00:21:02,267 --> 00:21:05,666 As soon as possible and have children, so to keep on. 313 00:21:05,667 --> 00:21:06,666 Like in Hebrew: 314 00:21:06,667 --> 00:21:07,766 "Am Israel hai". 315 00:21:07,767 --> 00:21:10,599 To keep up, keep the nation alive. 316 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:18,766 The, the, b.., but my, when I was, watch, watch my father being helpless when he was first arrested, eh and. 317 00:21:18,767 --> 00:21:20,666 He was a very strong person. 318 00:21:20,667 --> 00:21:26,499 And I, eh but the effect on me was not to, not to have any children. 319 00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:29,899 Because I knew I could not guarantee their safety. 320 00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:35,766 Eh b.., but a lot of people, and I am very happy that they did not take the same way I did. 321 00:21:35,767 --> 00:21:40,599 So, but that is, that is the effect on me. 322 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:48,099 IV: And would you, having, during this time, eh leaving, leaving Romania, being together with your brother in those camps. 323 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:51,899 What has been the most difficult or most terrible thing for you? 324 00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:54,332 ZF: You mean in the DP camps? 325 00:21:54,333 --> 00:21:56,532 IV: Eh no, before, in the concentration camps. 326 00:21:56,533 --> 00:21:58,099 ZF: In the concentration camp. 327 00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:01,666 There were of course very, many moments of terrible things. 328 00:22:01,667 --> 00:22:13,999 Yeah eh say eh you know, if I want to highlight is this trip from Buna on, on the waggon. 329 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,166 Eh it was very cold and we had to stay. 330 00:22:19,167 --> 00:22:24,666 And, and the first terrible thing is when we were separated, from, from the family. 331 00:22:24,667 --> 00:22:28,666 And eh as I mentioned before. 332 00:22:28,667 --> 00:22:30,399 When the waggons closed on us. 333 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,199 And it was, it took us three days. 334 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,532 And we were crowded when we were, this was when we were going to, to Birkenau. 335 00:22:36,533 --> 00:22:40,532 And eh we did not have any facilities there. 336 00:22:40,533 --> 00:22:45,999 And that, that was eh terrible emotional trauma. 337 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,032 Yeah, cer.., certainly. 338 00:22:48,033 --> 00:22:57,799 Eh the, sometimes the, the cold, was on appell. 339 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,032 When we were on appell. 340 00:23:00,033 --> 00:23:01,266 Just before we.. 341 00:23:01,267 --> 00:23:12,332 But, but the thing is, they gave us after a while, first of all we were in this eh prisoner clothes you know, eh blue stripes thing. 342 00:23:12,333 --> 00:23:14,332 But we were given coats. 343 00:23:14,333 --> 00:23:16,132 I mean they just took a lot of coats. 344 00:23:16,133 --> 00:23:17,966 Which they had plenty, because, left.. 345 00:23:17,967 --> 00:23:21,599 And some of us got better coats than others, they were just throwing. 346 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:22,599 They throw it at us. 347 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:30,132 And I think we, we had coats, were given I think when, when, when we left Buna after a while. 348 00:23:30,133 --> 00:23:32,399 At first we were just staying outside in the cold. 349 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,666 And I remember feeling sorry for my brother and for myself, too, I suppose. 350 00:23:37,667 --> 00:23:43,932 Eh the other thing is when we were sleeping 8 to a bed, to a bunk. 351 00:23:43,933 --> 00:23:47,532 That was very traumatic for eh. 352 00:23:47,533 --> 00:23:58,832 Well of course the whole trip {laughing} from eh, eh to, to Oranienburg from eh from, from Buna to Oranienburg. 353 00:23:58,833 --> 00:24:03,532 Yeah in, in the United States we did very well in school. 354 00:24:03,533 --> 00:24:07,332 When my brother graduated from High School, Evening High School. 355 00:24:07,333 --> 00:24:08,732 He had the highest average. 356 00:24:08,733 --> 00:24:10,432 I had the second highest average. 357 00:24:10,433 --> 00:24:15,032 But first we stayed at with, with our aunt for about a year. 358 00:24:15,033 --> 00:24:25,532 And then even later on for a while we ate at, one ate by ate at one, ate, place, an uncle, too, but the aunts cook. 359 00:24:25,533 --> 00:24:28,099 Eh and ate once a week. 360 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:30,666 So, and I lived mostly in New York City. 361 00:24:30,667 --> 00:24:35,266 Yeah I also did not mention I was two years in the Army which was.. 362 00:24:35,267 --> 00:24:35,999 IV: US Army? 363 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,832 ZF: US Army, piece of cake. 364 00:24:37,833 --> 00:24:37,999 IV: {laughing}. 365 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,332 ZF: Eh the only thing of bad about it was during basic training, because of the cold. 366 00:24:42,333 --> 00:24:46,532 Even that was not so bad. Because eh we always, sent to radar school. 367 00:24:46,533 --> 00:24:48,066 And I knew more than the teacher. 368 00:24:48,067 --> 00:24:53,166 And it was one of those things that you w.., dream about {laughing}. 369 00:24:53,167 --> 00:24:55,666 Yeah, so. 370 00:24:55,667 --> 00:24:59,000 IV: Good.