1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,999 IV2: I am pleased to do it. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,232 IV: Und Du sagst.. 3 00:00:06,233 --> 00:00:10,332 BF: And you got a pretty good interview incidentally. 4 00:00:10,333 --> 00:00:11,332 IV2: That is eh.. 5 00:00:11,333 --> 00:00:11,999 BF: Don't you think? 6 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,132 IV2: Then you have.. 7 00:00:13,133 --> 00:00:13,199 BF: You got.. 8 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:14,432 IV2: Abs.., absolutely. 9 00:00:14,433 --> 00:00:14,666 BF: It, it.. 10 00:00:14,667 --> 00:00:15,499 IV2: Overwhelming. 11 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:15,666 BF: At this.. 12 00:00:15,667 --> 00:00:16,332 IV3: Will you? 13 00:00:16,333 --> 00:00:18,299 IV4: She will, that I am sure. 14 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:20,332 BF: Okay. 15 00:00:20,333 --> 00:00:21,599 IV: Eh I think.. 16 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,232 BF: Okay. 17 00:00:23,233 --> 00:00:28,066 IV: Okay, so today, if you hear the name Flossenbürg. 18 00:00:28,067 --> 00:00:30,766 What comes up in your mind? 19 00:00:30,767 --> 00:00:34,332 BF: A concentration camp in Germany comes out of my mind. 20 00:00:34,333 --> 00:00:40,832 A horrible experience, time of my life, when I am running from one concentration camp to another. 21 00:00:40,833 --> 00:00:44,966 To try to collect the evidence of crimes which nobody would believe happened. 22 00:00:44,967 --> 00:00:50,066 Eh so Flossenbürg is a, is a name I will never forget. 23 00:00:50,067 --> 00:00:53,999 Eh along with some of the other camps. 24 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:59,699 IV: So, eh can you remember how many camps you have been to, in this time? 25 00:00:59,700 --> 00:00:59,999 BF: I can.. 26 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:00,999 IV: In searching.. 27 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,732 BF: I cannot tell you precisely, because of some sub-camps. 28 00:01:04,733 --> 00:01:07,299 Before we went into Buchenwald I went to a sub-camp. 29 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:08,066 Then into Buchenwald. 30 00:01:08,067 --> 00:01:09,499 The same way with Mauthausen. 31 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:11,299 That was some of the camps. 32 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:14,632 But I would guess, at least ten camps. 33 00:01:14,633 --> 00:01:21,332 And at least eh half a dozen of them became the basis for trials based upon the crimes that were committed in that particular camp. 34 00:01:21,333 --> 00:01:22,966 Flossenbürg for example was one. 35 00:01:22,967 --> 00:01:27,966 I have not, say, I do not know, if it was Mauthausen we had, we had Dachau of course, we had Buchenwald of course. 36 00:01:27,967 --> 00:01:32,799 Eh so eh it was not a matter of counting camps. 37 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,866 It was a matter of moving with the front as quickly as possible. 38 00:01:35,867 --> 00:01:40,332 Eh you had to get in and seize the evidence immediately. 39 00:01:40,333 --> 00:01:42,032 If not, it would be destroyed. 40 00:01:42,033 --> 00:01:44,532 Eh the inmates would run wild. 41 00:01:44,533 --> 00:01:48,199 The SS was running out into the woods. 42 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:53,799 The inmates catched them sometimes, catched them, killed them, beat them to death, burned them alive. 43 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,866 The crematorio was still going. 44 00:01:56,867 --> 00:02:00,132 And people were dying all over the floor. 45 00:02:00,133 --> 00:02:01,466 You did not know, if they were dead or alive. 46 00:02:01,467 --> 00:02:04,466 You would step over a body and they would wave a hand at you. 47 00:02:04,467 --> 00:02:07,832 And you would call a medic to say someone is still alive, you know. 48 00:02:07,833 --> 00:02:09,932 And get a hose and hose them down. 49 00:02:09,933 --> 00:02:13,266 They were covered with feces and vomit and dirt. 50 00:02:13,267 --> 00:02:17,599 And eh, eh you know, not a place to linger. 51 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:23,466 Eh as a matter of fact in Flossenbürg, if I remember correctly I got out of the camp as quickly as possible. 52 00:02:23,467 --> 00:02:31,099 And I went to the town of Flossenbürg, where I slept in the villa of the, of the eh either the Gauleiter or the camp Kommandant. 53 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:38,199 I remember there was a big picture on the wall, a portrait of a nude woman that was about two yards broad. 54 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:43,432 Well the name Flossenbürg very well, because it was one of a stream of camps. 55 00:02:43,433 --> 00:02:47,999 And eh most of the camps were amazingly similar. 56 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,299 Certain things they had in common, dead people lying all over the ground. 57 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:54,432 You could not tell if they were dead or alive. 58 00:02:54,433 --> 00:02:55,999 The dead wouldn't mo.., certainly move. 59 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,866 You would step over a body and they would pick up a hand. 60 00:02:58,867 --> 00:03:05,532 And dirt and filth and roaches and vomit and feces. 61 00:03:05,533 --> 00:03:10,399 And eh a total chaos, everybody running in different directions. 62 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:17,732 A tank battalion would come in and would go right through the camp and, and pursue the SS which was running out into the woods. 63 00:03:17,733 --> 00:03:22,499 Eh the inmates would grab one of the guards if they could beat him to death. 64 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,399 Eh with stones over the..., and grab his gun and beat him with that. 65 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,399 And then one case I remember that, I do not know, know if that was Flossenbürg. 66 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:31,666 I do not think it was Flossenbürg. 67 00:03:31,667 --> 00:03:42,032 Eh well they eh tied the eh guard to a one of the trays they used to dump the bodies into the crematorium. 68 00:03:42,033 --> 00:03:44,332 Eh and cooked him. 69 00:03:44,333 --> 00:03:48,132 They fill him into the fire and they took him out and beat him up and put him in again. 70 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:50,132 Took him out and beat him up until they killed him. 71 00:03:50,133 --> 00:03:55,332 Eh horrible, horrible scenes, you know, so real, so real ever. 72 00:03:55,333 --> 00:03:57,399 Eh a nightmare of sorts. 73 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,866 And eh that was repeated pretty much in every camp. 74 00:04:01,867 --> 00:04:04,466 It took a few days for it to settle down. 75 00:04:04,467 --> 00:04:07,866 Ah I started to say that, If my recollection is correct in Flossenbürg. 76 00:04:07,867 --> 00:04:10,332 The idea was, get out of the camp as soon as you can. 77 00:04:10,333 --> 00:04:12,666 I would get the, go to the Schreibstube. 78 00:04:12,667 --> 00:04:18,732 First go to the Colonel in charge who ever that c.. Major wa.., head in charge of entering the camp. 79 00:04:18,733 --> 00:04:22,999 And I would say I am here from General Patton's headquarters, I am a special assignment. 80 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:28,666 I want ten men, surround the Schreibstube immediately, nobody goes in or out without my permission. 81 00:04:28,667 --> 00:04:29,866 They would say: "Yes, Sir." 82 00:04:29,867 --> 00:04:31,932 I did not have any insignia on me at all. 83 00:04:31,933 --> 00:04:37,832 Eh and eh they would surround the camp I would go into the Schreibstube: "Where is the Schreiber?" 84 00:04:37,833 --> 00:04:39,399 The man who had been working on it. 85 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:40,199 We would, found him. 86 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,332 He was usually an inmate. 87 00:04:41,333 --> 00:04:42,366 "What is here?" 88 00:04:42,367 --> 00:04:44,199 "Hier, das sind die Totenbücher." 89 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,366 Hier was this, here were the entries of camps coming in. 90 00:04:46,367 --> 00:04:49,932 Everything is confiscated, seized as evidence, put it into my jeep, out. 91 00:04:49,933 --> 00:04:51,666 "Oh I will not give it up, I want a receipt." 92 00:04:51,667 --> 00:04:53,666 Here I give you a receipt, here is a receipt, bums. 93 00:04:53,667 --> 00:04:54,266 Goodbye. 94 00:04:54,267 --> 00:04:59,999 Eh and eh anybody who could give me a statement of some kind, take a statement. 95 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,332 Not waste too much time with it, you know. 96 00:05:02,333 --> 00:05:02,932 Get out. 97 00:05:02,933 --> 00:05:04,466 And eh, get out. 98 00:05:04,467 --> 00:05:06,132 Because the front was moving. 99 00:05:06,133 --> 00:05:07,466 And they were going to another camp. 100 00:05:07,467 --> 00:05:07,866 IV: Yeah. 101 00:05:07,867 --> 00:05:08,666 BF: Some place else. 102 00:05:08,667 --> 00:05:12,132 And eh but I spent, to spend the night in Flossenbürg. 103 00:05:12,133 --> 00:05:18,966 And I found out where the, I think it was either the Bürgermeister or the eh, eh or the camp commandant. 104 00:05:18,967 --> 00:05:23,099 This they would, they did not stay in the camp, it was down, little outside the camp. 105 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:25,599 And I threw him out while I was in there. 106 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,666 There, the flat, I took over the house. 107 00:05:27,667 --> 00:05:29,699 And I, I slept there in a big bed. 108 00:05:29,700 --> 00:05:37,599 And I remember the big picture on the wall, about six feet long of a nude woman {laughing} lying over the bed. 109 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,999 I did not pick the house or the bed for that purpose. 110 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,532 But I remember it that way and I think that was in Flossenbürg. 111 00:05:43,533 --> 00:05:50,399 The next day, I would get up early in the morning, wrap up whatever I may have still had to do in the camp, usually I was in and out. 112 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,132 And you go on to the next camp. 113 00:05:52,133 --> 00:05:57,199 Oh, wherever it was, Gusen or Mauthausen or eh Hahn. 114 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,399 You know I would get the reports in from headquarters. 115 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,266 I would mo.. go on. 116 00:06:01,267 --> 00:06:11,066 IV: And in Flossenbürg you can remember when you entered the Schreibstube, did you found any documents or had the SS destroyed everything before or.. 117 00:06:11,067 --> 00:06:12,666 BF: No I, I was very lucky there. 118 00:06:12,667 --> 00:06:14,399 In Berchtesgaden I did not have such luck. 119 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:21,666 In Berchtesgaden I was looking in the eagle's nest, the hundred and first airborne division jumped in ahead of me and drag everything, {laughing} you know. 120 00:06:21,667 --> 00:06:27,732 Eh but in Flo.., in the camps I was able to get in fast enough to get a lot of the records. 121 00:06:27,733 --> 00:06:37,732 Eh and to remain I think it was in Flossenbürg on the first of May, that I was there eh, because there was a May-day celebration. 122 00:06:37,733 --> 00:06:48,266 And they had a big tribune they had built in the middle of the camp, wood, the picture of Stalin, of Churchill and of Truman who was then President of the United States. 123 00:06:48,267 --> 00:06:52,999 And they were marching to celebrate the liberation, victory on May-day. 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:58,999 And eh, there I noticed one very bedraggled group on the side and I said: "Who are they?" 125 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,199 Oh, they are the Jews. 126 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,999 I felt, it would, what about the rest of them. 127 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,299 Well you had the French and these are the Czechs and here the Spanish, there are the Germans and so on. 128 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:20,766 So within the camp itself, there was the same sort of discrimination and segregation eh which existed outside the camps. 129 00:07:20,767 --> 00:07:23,666 That struck me as rather sad in a way. 130 00:07:23,667 --> 00:07:31,666 I must say, when I entered the camps, I did not have in mind at all the question of Jewish persecution, none. 131 00:07:31,667 --> 00:07:34,899 That may come as a surprise, but it's the truth. 132 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:46,932 Eh these were human beings and eh I, I knew that those with the star of David were Jews, eh but that was not my motivation or my main consideration. 133 00:07:46,933 --> 00:07:49,666 I am (???) this was that was a terrible situation. 134 00:07:49,667 --> 00:07:52,332 And eh everybody was the same. 135 00:07:52,333 --> 00:07:58,532 But in the camp itself they made a segregation which struck me as being rather interesting. 136 00:07:58,533 --> 00:08:07,632 IV: So, before being sent to the camps to investigate, did you know eh what a German concentration camp would be? 137 00:08:07,633 --> 00:08:09,666 What you would expect to see? 138 00:08:09,667 --> 00:08:13,399 BF: No, we did not know the word G.. concentration camp. 139 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:19,866 The first reports we got were, I have forgotten the name of the sub-camp before Buchenwald. 140 00:08:19,867 --> 00:08:23,266 Eh my battery for names has run down. 141 00:08:23,267 --> 00:08:29,199 But we got our report of stragglers along the road. 142 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,266 They look like they are starving, they are wearing some kind of pyjama. 143 00:08:33,267 --> 00:08:36,832 And they seem to be coming out of a work camp of some kind. 144 00:08:36,833 --> 00:08:38,232 That was the first report. 145 00:08:38,233 --> 00:08:42,232 Eh and I would get into my jeep and off I would go. 146 00:08:42,233 --> 00:08:44,066 And then pick up the trail. 147 00:08:44,067 --> 00:08:49,166 And the trail would lead back of course to the, the Lager or the sub-camp and then on to the main camp. 148 00:08:49,167 --> 00:08:55,999 And eh so the word concentration camp was unknown to us, absolutely unknown. 149 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,499 And I do not know at what time we began to call it that way. 150 00:08:59,500 --> 00:09:02,966 We called it you know, eh camp at Flossenbürg. 151 00:09:02,967 --> 00:09:10,099 Or camp at eh Ebensee or like eh we did not, we, we did not know. 152 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:11,999 And the towns were not even on a map. 153 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,599 Usually they were such small towns. 154 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:19,132 And that even a fairly good sized military map did not have them. 155 00:09:19,133 --> 00:09:22,066 And then we have to say what is in between this and that you know. 156 00:09:22,067 --> 00:09:24,766 And then go on the trail and try to pick up the trail. 157 00:09:24,767 --> 00:09:28,066 But which that moved very quickly actually. 158 00:09:28,067 --> 00:09:35,866 IV: And eh you had any idea what had been happening before in the last years in those camps? 159 00:09:35,867 --> 00:09:39,066 BF: No idea whatsoever from based on that experience. 160 00:09:39,067 --> 00:09:48,132 I did know, as early as 1943 when I was still a student at Harvard when I was doing research for one of my professors on war crimes. 161 00:09:48,133 --> 00:09:57,999 And he was a member of the so called international eh law eh it was the international war crimes comission, which had been set up in London. 162 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,699 And they were receiving reports from occupied territories about crimes occurring. 163 00:10:02,700 --> 00:10:08,266 And this was being channeled to different sources in the United States and he was one of them and I got them. 164 00:10:08,267 --> 00:10:11,866 So I, we knew about they were determined to murder Jews. 165 00:10:11,867 --> 00:10:15,266 That there was large scale massive programmes going on to kill them. 166 00:10:15,267 --> 00:10:17,699 We did not know the details of how. 167 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:21,666 We did not know what went on inside the camps. 168 00:10:21,667 --> 00:10:22,999 We knew there were work camps. 169 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,999 We knew about Dachau eh had been a work camp. 170 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:37,666 We did not know that there was this fine array of different categories of camps, Vernichtungslager, extermination camps and eh Arbeitslager and eh other kinds of Lager. 171 00:10:37,667 --> 00:10:47,666 The methodical German preparation for murdering twelve million people, you know, that this had been so carefully prepared as it was in Wannsee planned out. 172 00:10:47,667 --> 00:10:50,732 We did not know that until we found the Wannsee Protokoll. 173 00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:58,999 IV: And getting to your first camp, eh, how did it effect you seeing what you saw for the first time? 174 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,532 BF: It was a very strange effect. 175 00:11:01,533 --> 00:11:02,932 I would say in retrospect. 176 00:11:02,933 --> 00:11:05,999 At the time I did not have time to think about how it is effecting me. 177 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,332 Yeah, I got in and get, get, do my job and get out. 178 00:11:09,333 --> 00:11:16,999 But eh on eh reflection, my mind set up a blank wall. 179 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,132 A just blank wall. 180 00:11:18,133 --> 00:11:19,866 I would, no feelings at all. 181 00:11:19,867 --> 00:11:22,732 I am a doctor on a f.., battle field. 182 00:11:22,733 --> 00:11:26,199 And eh these are the corpses and we have to deal with them. 183 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:28,866 You deal with them by triage or whatever it is. 184 00:11:28,867 --> 00:11:30,699 You deal with them and move on to the next one. 185 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:32,166 And black it out. 186 00:11:32,167 --> 00:11:37,066 So there was no eh, emotional response. 187 00:11:37,067 --> 00:11:39,499 No schra.., cry of anger. 188 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:44,266 Kill them, how could they do this or, or sitting down and crying or anything of a kind. 189 00:11:44,267 --> 00:11:46,932 Nothing, numb, completely numb. 190 00:11:46,933 --> 00:11:53,932 Eh which was I think a eh a way of salvation, of keeping my own sanity. 191 00:11:53,933 --> 00:11:59,932 Eh and it only, you know, later, that it begins to settle in. 192 00:11:59,933 --> 00:12:02,666 And of course I was writing reports about what happened. 193 00:12:02,667 --> 00:12:08,932 And I knew exactly what had happened and I was writing some letters home to my then girlfriend and who. 194 00:12:08,933 --> 00:12:14,466 Eh I had for 65 years and a eh I was describing. 195 00:12:14,467 --> 00:12:26,932 And some of these letters have been kept by the National Archives in Washington as part of the national archives is a, eh, eh they call them treasures, national treasures of some kind. 196 00:12:26,933 --> 00:12:34,932 Because they were authentic reports of you know what I saw, the day after I saw them eh a day or two after I saw them. 197 00:12:34,933 --> 00:12:40,432 And eh I think some have long range effects. 198 00:12:40,433 --> 00:12:46,199 IV: Did you think later on, what you saw there had an influence of that what you started to do? 199 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,866 BF: Absolutely, absolutely. 200 00:12:47,867 --> 00:12:50,532 Eh it may have been a decisive influence. 201 00:12:50,533 --> 00:12:55,332 Eh and certainly you don't forget that, you don't brush it inside. 202 00:12:55,333 --> 00:13:01,699 Eh but eh you realize that you know man's inhumanity to man has no bounds. 203 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:10,232 And eh if you do not try to change the way people think, the whole world would warp that way. 204 00:13:10,233 --> 00:13:12,966 That was a conviction of mine. 205 00:13:12,967 --> 00:13:18,899 And I, it may have been an exaggeration, but maybe it was not. 206 00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:29,999 IV: So another question, going from one camp to, to another, sometimes you, you pass this eh roads (???) of the death marches? 207 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:30,332 BF: Yes. 208 00:13:30,333 --> 00:13:31,866 IV: Death, death walks. 209 00:13:31,867 --> 00:13:32,266 BF: Yes. 210 00:13:32,267 --> 00:13:34,199 IV: What do you remember what you saw there? 211 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,599 BF: Yes, yes, of course. 212 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:45,332 Eh very often, usually I would say the eh inmates were marched out of the camp who were able to march. 213 00:13:45,333 --> 00:13:50,232 As the troops were coming in, they were mostly fleeing away from the Russians. 214 00:13:50,233 --> 00:13:54,332 They were afraid, everybody was afraid of the Russians, for a very good cause. 215 00:13:54,333 --> 00:14:07,099 I mean, I know from my Einsatzgruppen trials the massacres over the Russians which took place by the German troops eh giving them something to fear, very real fear, when the ta.., tables were turned. 216 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:08,932 Anyway they were running away from the Russians. 217 00:14:08,933 --> 00:14:10,932 Running into the woods. 218 00:14:10,933 --> 00:14:12,966 And I would follow the trail. 219 00:14:12,967 --> 00:14:17,599 And eh these were trails of dead bodies really. 220 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,866 It would be, come to a place. 221 00:14:20,867 --> 00:14:28,732 Obviously a small ditch had been covered over with some branches or some leaves, maybe five or ten people in the ditch. 222 00:14:28,733 --> 00:14:32,566 A few steps on somebody whose top of his head was blown off. 223 00:14:32,567 --> 00:14:35,532 Eh I learned what a Genickschuss looks like. 224 00:14:35,533 --> 00:14:41,532 Eh somebody is kneeling and you put a bullet through the back of his cranium and blow the top of his head of. 225 00:14:41,533 --> 00:14:51,166 And the brains are scattered all around. 226 00:14:51,167 --> 00:14:54,666 Excuse me, but I have flash backs of these events. 227 00:14:54,667 --> 00:14:57,599 Eh and this was standard routine. 228 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:58,932 It was standard routine. 229 00:14:58,933 --> 00:15:01,132 And the SS kept on running. 230 00:15:01,133 --> 00:15:04,199 Eh if they were caught, they did not run far. 231 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,399 You could not distinguish them from everybody else in the hall. 232 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,366 They had their uniform that is all. 233 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:12,999 Eh so, that was it. 234 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,999 IV: And did you also had to do some research on these death walks and death marches? 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,799 BF: I had no research possibility at that time. 236 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,799 I had no idea, none whatsoever. 237 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:29,399 I could only describe what I saw and who was responsible, who was the commandant for example. 238 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,466 What the orders were from Berlin I had no idea. 239 00:15:31,467 --> 00:15:41,799 Later on, when I became a researcher for the Nürnberg trials, when I met the mass murderers, and they explained to me exactly who would had given the order when, where to do what. 240 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,666 I saw the total picture, better than anybody else, because I had seen that on the ground in action. 241 00:15:47,667 --> 00:15:49,999 I had met the killers face to face. 242 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,066 I have heard their explanations. 243 00:15:52,067 --> 00:15:59,132 I had seen their overall reports from the highest levels to the lowest echelons to see how it was carried out. 244 00:15:59,133 --> 00:16:02,332 There was nobody in the world, who had that knowledge. 245 00:16:02,333 --> 00:16:08,666 IV: And later on you have been acting as a witness in the Flossenbürg Prozess in Dachau. 246 00:16:08,667 --> 00:16:12,666 Do you have any..., you can remember being at this eh..? 247 00:16:12,667 --> 00:16:14,999 BF: I do not remember that at all, to tell you the truth. 248 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:22,532 Eh, eh, eh you are talking about the Flossenbürg trial that took place in the Dachau concentration camp? 249 00:16:22,533 --> 00:16:22,666 IV: Yeah. 250 00:16:22,667 --> 00:16:23,666 BF: In the earliest trial. 251 00:16:23,667 --> 00:16:26,666 That is very possible, because I wrote the report for it. 252 00:16:26,667 --> 00:16:32,132 And eh they probably may have called me to testify on the basis for the report. 253 00:16:32,133 --> 00:16:34,599 They could whatever have it, but I do not remember it all, it was... 254 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,399 I had nothing but contempt for those trials frankly. 255 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,932 Eh it a, it let me very cold. 256 00:16:42,933 --> 00:16:47,332 Eh I did not think they were proper trials. 257 00:16:47,333 --> 00:16:52,199 On the other hand, we did not charge anybody who is completely innocent. 258 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,999 The guards that were picked up were complices to mass murder. 259 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,566 No doubt, all of them, all of them. 260 00:16:58,567 --> 00:17:04,066 And the excuse that I was only the cook, I was on holiday, blablabla, baloney. 261 00:17:04,067 --> 00:17:06,099 They were all guilty. 262 00:17:06,100 --> 00:17:10,832 Eh if you saw what I saw, you do not have to have a trial. 263 00:17:10,833 --> 00:17:15,799 And the trials were not really considered eh by me at least as a, as a fair trial. 264 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,299 You know it was: "Herr Schmidt stand up. 265 00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,599 You are accused of being a guard in the camp. 266 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:21,399 Are you Herr Schmidt?" 267 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:21,732 "Yes." 268 00:17:21,733 --> 00:17:23,132 "What have you got to say for yourself? 269 00:17:23,133 --> 00:17:29,999 You are accused of being a complicet in the crimes against humanity and killing and suffering of innocent people," and so on. 270 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,932 They said: "Eh no, no, no I was just obeying superior orders." 271 00:17:32,933 --> 00:17:33,999 Or "I was not there." 272 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,399 Or "I was only the cook." 273 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,132 "Sit down, next." 274 00:17:37,133 --> 00:17:41,399 And go through 50 cases like that in about an hour or two. 275 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,399 And then come back and say eh: "So we are going to reassess." 276 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,666 Come back 15 minutes later. 277 00:17:46,667 --> 00:17:48,132 All the defendants are found guilty. 278 00:17:48,133 --> 00:17:49,999 Sentence of death by hanging. 279 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,899 Eh and some of them were hanged. 280 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:55,199 They were taken to Landsberg prison. 281 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,266 And when I visit Landsberg maybe ten years ago, eh for the first time. 282 00:18:00,267 --> 00:18:02,866 Eh I inquired about what happened to them. 283 00:18:02,867 --> 00:18:07,032 And say, said about a thousand prisoners were hanged in Landsberg. 284 00:18:07,033 --> 00:18:11,932 Well that was a fast trial, but not my idea of justice. 285 00:18:11,933 --> 00:18:13,832 Eh, but was it unjust? 286 00:18:13,833 --> 00:18:15,732 I do not know. 287 00:18:15,733 --> 00:18:19,899 IV: So, one last question, I forgot before. 288 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:31,199 Eh in Flossenbürg, eh you can remember you talk to, during your investigation you talked to any inmates or SS people who have been caught or.. 289 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,199 BF: Certainly, certainly you talk to inmates. 290 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,932 Eh you tal.., you talk to anybody who, who was capable of talking. 291 00:18:36,933 --> 00:18:37,999 Many inmates were. 292 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,199 They would come up and thank you and want some food. 293 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:41,666 Or some.., you had to be really careful. 294 00:18:41,667 --> 00:18:47,699 And we had, we all carried an emergency chocolate bar on our belt instead of ammunition {laughing} or in case of food. 295 00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:50,132 But if you gave them the Hershey bar, that would kill them. 296 00:18:50,133 --> 00:18:55,099 Because eh they had been starved and this was a piece of strong food. 297 00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:56,332 And so we were warned. 298 00:18:56,333 --> 00:18:57,866 Do not give them any food. 299 00:18:57,867 --> 00:19:01,499 And of course they were graveling in the garbage to get some food. 300 00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:04,532 And so we could set up a soup kitchen to begin to feed them. 301 00:19:04,533 --> 00:19:09,766 So we talked to the inmates, some of them, like the Schreiber, Schreiber, you could get good information from them. 302 00:19:09,767 --> 00:19:13,666 As to who, what transports had arrived, when, where, who were the guards. 303 00:19:13,667 --> 00:19:14,999 Eh and, and so on. 304 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,066 So we did collect very valuable information. 305 00:19:17,067 --> 00:19:23,466 I took affidavits from them, they must be in the records somewhere, if the Army has not destroyed them or lost them or somewhere.. 306 00:19:23,467 --> 00:19:26,132 But eh this was part of the routine examination. 307 00:19:26,133 --> 00:19:35,999 Not merely seizing the documents, but also taking statements from at least half a dozen, or maybe a dozen eh survivors, who were able to give you some important testimony. 308 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:43,132 IV: Are there in Flossenbürg you, are there any people, special people you, you remember eh you have been talking to? 309 00:19:43,133 --> 00:19:44,766 BF: No, unfortunately not. 310 00:19:44,767 --> 00:19:51,866 Eh I think my son one, did some research on this, came upon an affidavit, which I had taken from somebody. 311 00:19:51,867 --> 00:19:54,399 I think it may have been from Flossenbürg or Mauthausen. 312 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,999 And he was so surprised, you know, because it was not important where it was or who it was. 313 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,199 It was a person, a survivor, an inmate and. 314 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:03,332 I, this was the time. 315 00:20:03,333 --> 00:20:12,066 And this was, you know, in May of 1945 and it was still a very turbulent world. 316 00:20:12,067 --> 00:20:13,999 IV: Okay, thank you very much. 317 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,066 BF: Okay. 318 00:20:16,067 --> 00:20:19,333 IV4: Thank you.