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IV: Okay. Let's try. So..

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MH: Are you ready?

3
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IV: Jah, we are ready.

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MH: Now, I, actually, I should come back before - they marched us out of Flossenbürg.

5
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I was here for two, three months.

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I don't know exactly the time.

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I suppose on records they should have the time of the people who arrived and who - they marched out.

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I know now, looked at the map, I know exactly where my barrack was.

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If you go along here, you know where the crematorium is?

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Down there, there were four barracks, on the right, four barracks.

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And I was in one of them, I remember.

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Because, close to the barracks, there was the la- the toilette, the lavatory, and the washroom.

13
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So I do remember.

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And I pointed, I could see from the - you see these streets here? You see?

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There was a barrack there and I was told, it was a Bordell.

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There.. you can't see it because the trees have grown.

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But before, I could see it from my barrack.

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And we were told, that was a Bordell for the SS.

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When I'm telling this people, they say I don't know, but I know, I could see it from the barrack I was there.

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Anyway, I was here, how long?

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Two months, three months, I don't know the exactly, how long we were..

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And I was working -

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You see, when they brought the people in here, through that -

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and they went into the washroom, first they had to undress. And then.. Now.

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I was working, sorting out the clothing. That was the work I did.

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And I remember, every morning, they used to march us to the Appell. The Appell, you see.

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And conditions were terrible here in that barrack.

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We used to be - I always tried to go to the top, you know, in the bunk.

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Alright, because people always were messing, if you were underneath.

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And I was still strong enough, I managed to climb up.

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And we were always three, four, five.

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And every morning, there were one or two deads in our bunk. So you see.

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So I kept saying "Oh, next night, we won't have so many in the, in the bunk."

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You know, you were happy because you couldn't sleep.

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You were just sort of crowded and standing all night like this in the bank.

36
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And we were here, for, as I say, two - but I don't know the - how long we were here.

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I don't know if they got records when they registered.

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They've got records, I see, I didn't know that.

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I found my records, my name and my number.

40
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So, I suppose they must have records how long people were here.

41
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But I can't find it - that I don't know.

42
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When they marched us out, we marched for days and days and days.

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Always, during the night, in the forest.

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And so many people. We marched out, there was in groups, they took people out in groups.

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A few thousand.

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And every few yards, hundred yards, people were just falling out like flies.

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And anybody who fell out that was shot.

48
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Until.. one day, one evening, I gained -

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it was very bad weather, I remember, I was soaked to the skin.

50
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I was like a skeleton, you know.

51
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And the worst thing - in all the year.. time that I was in the concentration camp, it was bad enough you didn't get any food.

52
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And you were a slave labourer, you know.

53
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The worst thing was lice. It was eating you up.

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The lice were eating people up.

55
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Abso- that was the worst, and you're - look, you're - all you're ever doing is scratching yourself.

56
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Never washed. Can you imagine?

57
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And the same thing, you were never changed.

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The same clothes, all lice. There was - conditions were terrible.

59
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Anyway, one evening, they put us in a village. We arrived in a village.

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And they put us in a barn. You know, what a barn is? Alright.

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Oh, it was raining terribly. And I was soaked to the skin.

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I was so happy at laying in the hay, covering yourself, you know.

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But still, I was wet. In the morning, they took us all from the barn.

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Started marching again.

65
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Now, imagine we are marching in this direction and I could see from the distance a bridge.

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I could see a bridge.

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So, I, I've seen there's a bridge, it must be a, a river.

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If there's a bridge.

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Suddenly, we see - like, we are marching this direction. Suddenly, from the other direction, I see tanks.

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Now, it happened so quickly - it was a minute, everything happened in minutes.

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All of a sudden, I see soldiers jumping out from the tanks.

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I don't know who these tanks are, I don't know nothing.

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But all I heard is, they're shouting. Because we had SS on each side, marching..

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But at that time, we were not many left, it was only about three, four hundred left from the group that left Flossenbürg.

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And I heard shouting "Ach, diese deutschen Kranken." In German. Cause I spoke German..

76
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While this has happened, within seconds, minutes, I saw soldiers jumping out from the tanks and started shooting.

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At the SS. Started shooting SS.

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And they started saying "Get behind the (???), get behind the tanks."

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And I'm still so confused, I don't know what it's all about.

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I still don't know - what tanks? You know.

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Luckily, while this - all this happened very quickly.

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Now, I assume and I'm pretty sure that they had already liberated because they had already come across people like us.

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You know, we were still in the striped uniforms.

84
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So, they knew who we were, you see, they liberated..

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They said "Get behind the tanks."

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And they started throwing sweets and chocolate.

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Sweets and chocolate.

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Now, it was very nice. You know, can you imagine after you haven't eaten, now sweets and chocolate.

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They're throwing from the tanks. But I know, it was a bad thing.

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They shouldn't have done that. People hadn't eaten for years, their stomach was shrunk or something.

91
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That was the worst thing they could have done to give you sweets and chocolate.

92
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Anyway, get behind - luckily, among the soldiers, there were some Jewish soldiers and they spoke Yiddish.

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Because I didn't speak any other - and they spoke Yiddish.

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And they said, and they had already liberated and they knew who we were and they spoke Yiddish.

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And we explained, we are from the camps..

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They said, they know all about. Anyway, we didn't know what to do.

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You know, suddenly, we find ourselves in the village.

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So, about four of us, my brother and myself and some other, two others.

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We looked for somewhere to go.

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So we saw a house - so we said, we're going to that house.

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We went into that house, there was a woman.

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German woman. She ran away, we came in, into the house.

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And she ran off.

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We made ourselves comfortable, found food in the house.

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And we all wanted to take the clothes off because it was full of lice, you know.

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So, we found a lot of food - she ran away - we must have stayed there for about a week or so.

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I was recuperating, already having a rest, I was eating.

108
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And then, the Americans was, they were rounding up people like us.

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And they took me to Neunburg.

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Why? Now, I wanted to know the place where I was liberated.

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And I didn't know.

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But this chap, who I'm telling you, his name was Manfred, he was born in Germany. German Jew.

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He knew things because he knew Germany.

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Now he tells me that this village where we were liberated is Stamsried. 

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Stamsried.

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I looked on the map everywhere, I can't find Stamsried on the - but they must have it on the local maps.

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They must - it's a small place. Stamsried.

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So, it cannot be all that far from Neunburg, I imagine so.

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I imagine because they marched us from here.

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Anyway, so the place is called, I know it now to be Stamsried.

121
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We like to go and see but I don't think it's possible.

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You know, I don't know where places were, so I can't find it on the map but I made inquiries.

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And they said "Yes, it is such a place" but it's not on the map but they know where it is.

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Anyway, they took us to Neunburg because Neunburg, you know, Neuburg is a town.

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You know? Big town.

126
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They already had the Jewish community set up, you know, getting people say all the records.

127
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So they asked me where I come and I told them, I come from such and such a place. I'm a Jew.

128
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Anyway, we - I was a youngster, so from there, they took me to Indersdorf.

129
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I didn't know where Indersdorf..

130
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When we got there - of course, Indersdorf is a monastery.

131
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I don't know if you know Indersdorf? Indersdorf is a monastery.

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They made us comfortable, you know, there was a lot of room. So it's a big, very big place.

133
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We were there for a few months. Quite a few months.

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So one day, they said, look, we're going to take you to England.

135
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Now, I knew I had family in Palestine.

136
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I said what are you doing - I want to go to where I've got brothers and sisters in Palestine. Brother and sisters.

137
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I want to go. But in those days, you couldn't go to Palestine.

138
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If you know there's the.. the British mandate, you couldn't go into Palestine.

139
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Anyway, they took us to England. They asked me for a date of birth and everything.

140
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So, I genuinely didn't know.

141
00:09:32,467 --> 00:09:38,599
So I had to give a date of birth. So anything that came into my mind, I just gave a date.

142
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This is my day, this is my month and this is my year. Right.

143
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Now, from then, from - until today, I always go. All my legal documents, passports, always on that day.

144
00:09:52,733 --> 00:09:56,332
But I always wanted to find out my real date of birth.

145
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You know, you're curious, you want to know your date of birth.

146
00:09:59,633 --> 00:10:06,999
So for many years I applied to the Romanian embassy in England but they couldn't find - I say: "I would like my date of birth."

147
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So they, they're terrible, the Romanians.

148
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You know, I don't want to go into details in politics but they're useless.

149
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They're useless.

150
00:10:15,267 --> 00:10:20,399
So they said: "No, we can't find because there was a lot of fighting in that days, things were destroyed..."

151
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,832
Anyway, but I was persistent. I kept persisting.

152
00:10:23,833 --> 00:10:26,766
Eventually, they did find my date of birth.

153
00:10:26,767 --> 00:10:34,999
My certificate - my birth certificate. And I saw that on my birth certificate, I wasn't far out.

154
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,332
I was only a few months, so I've got two birthdays.

155
00:10:38,333 --> 00:10:43,266
I've got my official birthday and the birthday that I got on the documents.

156
00:10:43,267 --> 00:10:45,166
But I've never changed it.

157
00:10:45,167 --> 00:10:51,099
I never ever changed it. Always my passport, all my documents, but my real date..

158
00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:56,432
So I found here, so I wondered the date they have got here.

159
00:10:56,433 --> 00:10:59,999
On my record. I found my name and my number.

160
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,166
Where did they get this? I must have given them, they didn't invent it.

161
00:11:04,167 --> 00:11:09,366
So I must have given them the date. I suppose I just gave a date.

162
00:11:09,367 --> 00:11:13,032
I just gave a date of birth. Anyway, so -

163
00:11:13,033 --> 00:11:16,499
IV: Maybe you can tell us, what is the exact date?

164
00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:22,532
MH: My exact date is the 10th of december 1930. That's my -

165
00:11:22,533 --> 00:11:23,266
Woman: '31!

166
00:11:23,267 --> 00:11:23,999
MH: What?

167
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:24,599
Woman: '31!

168
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,799
MH: 1931. That's the real birth.

169
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,466
Anyway, but I was only a few months out. Difference..

170
00:11:31,467 --> 00:11:33,866
Anyway, they took us to England.

171
00:11:33,867 --> 00:11:38,199
And from Indersdorf and they said, they are going to take us to England.

172
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,032
They do what they want. They take us where they want. I don't, I've got no choice.

173
00:11:43,033 --> 00:11:49,199
They took me to England, we landed there - in a place near Southampton.

174
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,432
I don't know if you've heard of Southampton? The town, there's a small airfield.

175
00:11:52,433 --> 00:11:56,966
And they brought - you had to be under 16.

176
00:11:56,967 --> 00:12:00,166
You had to be under 16 to be taken.

177
00:12:00,167 --> 00:12:04,399
Now, people had no documents of date of birth. You could say anything.

178
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,832
They had to believe you.

179
00:12:05,833 --> 00:12:09,366
But they could also see, roughly, how old you were.

180
00:12:09,367 --> 00:12:14,566
But some people, they wanted to go, so they said. Even if you were a year older or something..

181
00:12:14,567 --> 00:12:16,932
You were taken to England.

182
00:12:16,933 --> 00:12:19,799
But that was not the real date of birth.

183
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:27,666
Anyway, they took us to England and we were sent to ah, center first of all near Southampton.

184
00:12:27,667 --> 00:12:32,799
From there, we were there for a few days, and then they sent people to hostels.

185
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:38,399
Now, those who came from Indersdorf, we called it the Munich.

186
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,232
We are always known as "The Boys", we are known.

187
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To this day, we are from the community in England, we are always known as "The Boys."

188
00:12:45,867 --> 00:12:50,966
Because we were boys then, so we call ourselves, still call ourselves "The Boys".

189
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Books were written, it's always on "The Boys", the books.

190
00:12:54,767 --> 00:12:58,966
So, we were sent to hostels, I was sent to a hostel in Manchester.

191
00:12:58,967 --> 00:13:01,632
I was sent to a hostel in Manchester.

192
00:13:01,633 --> 00:13:05,199
I was there for a few months. It was a religious hostel.

193
00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:11,532
Now, although I was brought up in a very religious family, but life has changed, you know.

194
00:13:11,533 --> 00:13:13,666
Completely. My life is different now.

195
00:13:13,667 --> 00:13:17,999
I've got no parents, I've got nothing and I'm responsible for myself.

196
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,032
So, I was there for a few months, in that hostel in Manchester.

197
00:13:22,033 --> 00:13:28,599
I didn't like it, you know. It was sort of too strict for my liking, I sort of became a rebel.

198
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,032
You know, I had my own views about life.

199
00:13:32,033 --> 00:13:38,132
And ah.. Yes, so I wanted - I'm staying still in Manchester.

200
00:13:38,133 --> 00:13:44,699
So I wanted to find out about my brother and sister in Palestine.

201
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:50,632
It was still Palestine, that was before the state was established. I'm talking about 1945 and 1946.

202
00:13:50,633 --> 00:13:54,066
So, I've got no address but I know a name.

203
00:13:54,067 --> 00:13:58,499
I know his name is Michael Hecht. I'm Hecht. His name was Michael.

204
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:06,732
So, how do I find him. So I asked somebody to write "Michael Hecht, Palestine".

205
00:14:06,733 --> 00:14:10,466
That's all I know, he's in Palestina.

206
00:14:10,467 --> 00:14:15,699
The letter was sent, "Michael Hecht, Palestine", and it got there.

207
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:23,332
Because at that time, Palestine had only about 300,000 to 350,000 Jewish people. So, there were not many Hechts.

208
00:14:23,333 --> 00:14:27,732
So it got to him. That's how he found out that we were alive.

209
00:14:27,733 --> 00:14:35,666
We explained in the letter that Jacob - Jack - and Martin, we were alive, we were in Manchester.

210
00:14:35,667 --> 00:14:40,699
Then afterwards, we told him the details what happened to the rest of the family. They knew nothing.

211
00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:47,299
Well, they were in Palestine. So, that's how we started to communicate, that's how I found him.

212
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We were in Manchester and then, I came back to a hostel in London.

213
00:14:52,967 --> 00:14:57,766
And I started to go to school, there were (???).

214
00:14:57,767 --> 00:15:01,266
I was going to a ORT school, you know, you've heard of the ORT?

215
00:15:01,267 --> 00:15:09,166
That they do - teaching and also a profession. So, I was taking engineering.

216
00:15:09,167 --> 00:15:12,999
So I was - for three years, I went to school. I studied.

217
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:19,499
And also.. Then, at the age of 17, you sort of started to make your own life.

218
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:24,566
But I always wanted to go to Palestine. To see my family.

219
00:15:24,567 --> 00:15:32,932
Then, of course, in 1948 when the state was established, 1947/48, I was working earning just enough to keep myself.

220
00:15:32,933 --> 00:15:35,266
You know, paying for rent, have a living.

221
00:15:35,267 --> 00:15:39,866
And I was, in those days, there was the old English money, the shillings.

222
00:15:39,867 --> 00:15:47,132
And I remember, I was saving up every week, like the equivalent to half a pound every week, you know.

223
00:15:47,133 --> 00:15:53,299
To save enough money to go to Israel, to see my family, you know.

224
00:15:53,300 --> 00:16:00,299
Because until then, we were responsi.. - the Jewish community, they were responsible for us.

225
00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:08,332
We used to get pocket money, like the equivalent of a euro or two a week, just to buy something.

226
00:16:08,333 --> 00:16:14,999
Anyway, but then I saved up enough and I decided to - I managed to go to Palestine.

227
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,332
In those days, there was no flights, you couldn't fly.

228
00:16:17,333 --> 00:16:22,266
The only way to go to Palestine, to Israel, you have to go by ship.

229
00:16:22,267 --> 00:16:24,299
Now, there was no shipping from England.

230
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:28,766
So you had to go either to France, to Marseille, there was -

231
00:16:28,767 --> 00:16:32,999
Israel had already established, it's, it was called the "ZIM Line".

232
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,299
A shipping company, you know, they used.. would all ships from Germany or from Italy, you know.

233
00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:44,232
And they were running every week from Marseille or from Venice to Haifa.

234
00:16:44,233 --> 00:16:49,999
It took a week to go by boat. So, I made my way to Marseille.

235
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:56,599
From England. And then I took a boat from Marseille to Haifa. Took about a week, sailing.

236
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,666
And I remember, when I arrived, they were waiting for me on the dock.

237
00:17:00,667 --> 00:17:06,266
And of course, I've never seen them before, I don't know because I was a child when they left for Palestine.

238
00:17:06,267 --> 00:17:09,932
I didn't know how they looked. I've never seen my family.

239
00:17:09,933 --> 00:17:15,766
They were waiting for me but they had already sent me some photos from them at the time, from Palestine.

240
00:17:15,767 --> 00:17:17,899
So I more or less knew how they looked.

241
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:25,199
They were waiting for me, can you imagine, brothers.. Story of my life. Were they.

242
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,499
Would you like to ask me any questions?

243
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:31,566
IV: Yes, yes, some questions.. coming back to Flossenbürg.

244
00:17:31,567 --> 00:17:36,499
Because you remember very well. So - alles hinten noch okay?

245
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:38,499
CM: Hmm.

246
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,399
IV: So, you remember where your barracks have been?

247
00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,166
MH: Yes, I pointed out, from here.

248
00:17:44,167 --> 00:17:54,266
If you go along the trees, right to the end, well, you go down to the crematorium, you go down.

249
00:17:54,267 --> 00:17:58,599
Of course, the barracks don't exist there anymore. They are not there anymore.

250
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,366
There were four barracks there.

251
00:18:00,367 --> 00:18:08,232
And if you go to the end, by the last barrack, there is a, there was a toilet and a washroom, a washroom.

252
00:18:08,233 --> 00:18:15,599
That's where my barrack was. Because I remember, I could see the barrack on to the other side which I was told was a brothel.

253
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:22,132
That I do remember. And of course, they used to bring us out from that direction to the Appell.

254
00:18:22,133 --> 00:18:26,999
The Appell. This is where I was working, in this building.

255
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,832
I was sorting out the clothing, when people were made to undress, to go into the showerroom.

256
00:18:33,833 --> 00:18:36,232
That's where I - my job.

257
00:18:36,233 --> 00:18:39,499
IV: And you've been here until the camp was evacuated.

258
00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:43,799
So can you tell me a little bit about the situation in these last months of Flossenbürg?

259
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,999
MH: Condi-, conditions were terrible.

260
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:51,066
I know one thing, maybe people who were in the other barracks didn't see it.

261
00:18:51,067 --> 00:18:56,632
But I used to see it because I used to bring - my barrack was the last one - they used to bring all the bodies there.

262
00:18:56,633 --> 00:19:00,166
To the crematorium. So I used to see it from our barracks.

263
00:19:00,167 --> 00:19:02,799
Depends where you were situated, as I say.

264
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:08,099
There, the houses are there now, there were barracks. All along.

265
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:14,199
Now, I cannot understand to this day, why they allowed houses to be built here.

266
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:22,499
And if they did allow, who would want to live in houses where there was a concentration camp where people were murdered.

267
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:27,932
You know, this, I cannot understand. Who would want to live there.

268
00:19:27,933 --> 00:19:30,299
Would you want to live in there, in a place like that?

269
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:31,466
IV: No, never.

270
00:19:31,467 --> 00:19:33,366
MH: Why did they allow houses to be built?

271
00:19:33,367 --> 00:19:39,632
I asked that question. So I was told, the reason these people built houses, they were working in the quarries.

272
00:19:39,633 --> 00:19:45,266
And they had to house them somewhere, so they built these houses for them.

273
00:19:45,267 --> 00:19:48,666
They were workers who were working in the quarries.

274
00:19:48,667 --> 00:19:53,166
But - I wouldn't want to live here where people were murdered.

275
00:19:53,167 --> 00:19:59,266
This was a - this was a factory for murder. They learned, they were fantastic, the Germans.

276
00:19:59,267 --> 00:20:01,232
They're so efficient, it is unbelievable.

277
00:20:01,233 --> 00:20:09,766
Look, here you've got a people, cultured, intelligent, with every single - you know, they know how to build the best thing, you know.

278
00:20:09,767 --> 00:20:14,932
And yet, they learn to murder. This was a factory of murdering people.

279
00:20:14,933 --> 00:20:17,966
Not just here, all the concentration camps.

280
00:20:17,967 --> 00:20:23,266
But this is absolutely - people were being murdered by, daily hanged.

281
00:20:23,267 --> 00:20:27,232
In this center where the Appellplatz was, they used to hang them.

282
00:20:27,233 --> 00:20:31,332
We used to stand there, watching they hanging people. Or beaten to death..

283
00:20:31,333 --> 00:20:35,732
First of all, they whipped them, then the hanged them. Right in the center of the Appellplatz.

284
00:20:35,733 --> 00:20:41,166
In the morning or in the evening. People who came back from work had to be counted again.

285
00:20:41,167 --> 00:20:45,466
They always had to know the number. Cause people were dying out ever night.

286
00:20:45,467 --> 00:20:50,132
So in the morning, they had to have an Appell again. And then in the evening, again.

287
00:20:50,133 --> 00:20:53,299
Twice a day we had Appells here. Right in the center.

288
00:20:53,300 --> 00:21:01,299
There.. it's unbelievable. How people - look, don't ask me how I survived.

289
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:02,999
I don't know.

290
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:11,432
I can't even say if it was courage, willpower. I was young and I said: "No. I want to survive. I'm not giving in."

291
00:21:11,433 --> 00:21:16,299
Some people just - like flies. They give in, had enough, you can't take it anymore.

292
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,032
You know. But I was determined, it's in my nature.

293
00:21:20,033 --> 00:21:23,132
I just know, I'm not giving in. I was determined.

294
00:21:23,133 --> 00:21:30,999
I saw people you.. it was unbelievable. You know, they just gave up, can't take it anymore.

295
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,266
You know, there's a slice of bread -

296
00:21:33,267 --> 00:21:41,499
When I was working in Dörnhau in Silesia, we were given every day in the evening, coming back from the work, a slice of bread.

297
00:21:41,500 --> 00:21:46,232
In the morning, they said they're giving us hot coffee, just hot water, you know.

298
00:21:46,233 --> 00:21:49,032
Went to work, worked like a slave, all day.

299
00:21:49,033 --> 00:21:52,499
And in the evening, when they brought us back to the camp.

300
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:57,966
You know what the (???) is? We call the (???) You had to have a dish.

301
00:21:57,967 --> 00:22:05,266
And if you lost the dish - always, doesn't matter where you went, slept or working, you always had it with you.

302
00:22:05,267 --> 00:22:08,566
Tied to you. If you didn't have it, you didn't get no food.

303
00:22:08,567 --> 00:22:13,566
Because when you came in, you went with the dish to get a ladle of food. If you didn't have it.

304
00:22:13,567 --> 00:22:21,399
So you made sure that this was always - you wouldn't let it go. You wouldn't - and it was always hanging by your trousers.

305
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:30,199
You see. So in the evening, you come in, always, slice of bread. And the ladle of soup. Hot water with cabbage.

306
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:36,332
Of course, people can't survive. Especially you, ah, they, you're slaving, like a slave labourer.

307
00:22:36,333 --> 00:22:41,666
And they're whipping you, people were beaten at work if they couldn't carry on anymore. You know.

308
00:22:41,667 --> 00:22:45,532
I remember the work I did. I was working in the quarries.

309
00:22:45,533 --> 00:22:50,532
And then, they transferred me, they were building a station on the mountains.

310
00:22:50,533 --> 00:23:00,366
I'm telling you, the company.. What's the name? They know the name of the company. The.. ah, German company.

311
00:23:00,367 --> 00:23:01,999
IV: I don't know but we can find out.

312
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,399
MH: They're the biggest, several engineers, they're building bridges..

313
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,032
Anyway, this was a company. And I was lucky.

314
00:23:09,033 --> 00:23:19,666
There, I was working for a few weeks. I was working on the train. You know, ah.. you're shifting earth and had these little wagons.

315
00:23:19,667 --> 00:23:22,666
I was on the Bremsen, you know what the Brems is?

316
00:23:22,667 --> 00:23:23,732
IV: Yeah.

317
00:23:23,733 --> 00:23:29,566
MH: I was working on the - on the Brems. So I was lucky there, I was working for a few weeks on that.

318
00:23:29,567 --> 00:23:33,499
And at least, at that time, I didn't have to dig.

319
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:38,266
It's always, transferring, we had this narrow little gage in the railway line.

320
00:23:38,267 --> 00:23:42,666
So we transferring earth from one place to another. I was working on the Bremsen.

321
00:23:42,667 --> 00:23:47,166
If it was going down there. And then, I was moved again, you see.

322
00:23:47,167 --> 00:23:52,999
Everyday, I remember, I used to go out to work say, in groups. It depends on what job you had.

323
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,966
They had different work. Used to go like, 100, 200 workers there.

324
00:23:57,967 --> 00:24:00,366
And in the evening, bringing bodies back.

325
00:24:00,367 --> 00:24:05,266
They couldn't, they were like flies. Falling like flies at work.

326
00:24:05,267 --> 00:24:09,699
How can, how long can you.. You can do it for a few days, a week.

327
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:15,066
But day after day, so they kept in there, they kept bringing in again.

328
00:24:15,067 --> 00:24:20,999
To make up the number. They needed workers. They needed workers.

329
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:28,232
IV: So, and in these last days, so here in Flossenbürg, ah. People told me it was very crowded. Everyday new transports came.

330
00:24:28,233 --> 00:24:28,866
MH: Absolutely.

331
00:24:28,867 --> 00:24:31,499
IV: Do you have some idea, can you remember, what happened here?

332
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,466
MH: This.. No, that's I'm telling you.

333
00:24:33,467 --> 00:24:38,232
They brought in so many people in the end, as I say, they brought me from there.

334
00:24:38,233 --> 00:24:42,199
I was here, I don't know. They must have records, two or three months.

335
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,632
I must have been two or three - because some of the boys told me they were only here for a few days.

336
00:24:47,633 --> 00:24:51,999
But I was brought - you can tell by the number, they've got numbers here.

337
00:24:52,000 --> 00:25:00,432
The year and the number, so I came in 1945 here and afterwards there's more numbers.

338
00:25:00,433 --> 00:25:03,266
People came much later. Much later.

339
00:25:03,267 --> 00:25:10,932
Now, the whole idea, I've learned now, when they.. evacuated Flossenbürg and they took us.

340
00:25:10,933 --> 00:25:12,932
You know, where we, they were going to take us?

341
00:25:12,933 --> 00:25:15,699
I know now, I've read all the books, I've read the records.

342
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,966
We were going to be taken to Dachau. To Dachau.

343
00:25:19,967 --> 00:25:26,199
Why, Dachau was still in the hands of the Germans, that was one of the last concentration camps, you see.

344
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,066
So, these - the people from Flossenbürg were being taken..

345
00:25:30,067 --> 00:25:35,199
But we never reached Dachau. We were liberated before Dachau.

346
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,366
So, this was the idea, from when they evacuated people, you know.

347
00:25:40,367 --> 00:25:46,999
So as I say, I was liberated at Stamsried, a village, how far - it's a long distance.

348
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,332
Can you imagine, they were going to march us from here to -

349
00:25:50,333 --> 00:25:56,666
You know how many miles it is, how many kilometres from here to Dachau? What, then? 200? 250 kilometres?

350
00:25:56,667 --> 00:25:58,066
IV: Maybe 250.

351
00:25:58,067 --> 00:26:06,332
MH: Yeah, around - I looked in the map, around 200.. So, they were going to march us from here to Dachau.

352
00:26:06,333 --> 00:26:08,132
IV: Nobody would have survived.

353
00:26:08,133 --> 00:26:12,066
MH: Now, as I say, even before, when we were liberated.

354
00:26:12,067 --> 00:26:14,132
I don't know the distance we marched.

355
00:26:14,133 --> 00:26:18,299
We.. left here, what, 3-4000, I don't know how many.

356
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:21,366
Only 500 survived by the time we were liberated.

357
00:26:21,367 --> 00:26:24,966
So many people - every few yards, there was another shot. Another shot.

358
00:26:24,967 --> 00:26:28,532
People were just falling out, they couldn't march anymore.

359
00:26:28,533 --> 00:26:34,466
You had - they never. Three, four days, we didn't get any food at all. Nothing. Nothing.

360
00:26:34,467 --> 00:26:38,966
At night-time, they used to put us in the forest. Resting.

361
00:26:38,967 --> 00:26:42,999
And I used to see the SS eating, you know.

362
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:48,066
Another thing I wanted to point out - it's not here anymore, you see there.

363
00:26:48,067 --> 00:26:52,032
Along here, there was a little pond, there was a pond.

364
00:26:52,033 --> 00:26:56,966
There was a pond in the middle. It's not there, I'm telling people - look, I remember the pond.

365
00:26:56,967 --> 00:26:58,632
It's not there anymore.

366
00:26:58,633 --> 00:27:00,766
So, one day, I shall never forget it.

367
00:27:00,767 --> 00:27:06,666
An SS man was walking here along, so sometimes, you had nothing to do all day.

368
00:27:06,667 --> 00:27:11,666
You were just.. you know, you didn't have no work or you were just hanging around.

369
00:27:11,667 --> 00:27:15,966
I saw an SS man coming along and he was eating something.

370
00:27:15,967 --> 00:27:25,566
And as he's walking along, he threw it, whatever it was, a potato, an apple, what, I don't know what it was, he threw it away into the pond.

371
00:27:25,567 --> 00:27:32,099
Now, I saw that. I saw that, so naturally, I was running like mad to pick it up.

372
00:27:32,100 --> 00:27:36,232
To see if I can get.. And there was another boy, he must have seen the same thing.

373
00:27:36,233 --> 00:27:38,699
We were all running into the pond..

374
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:42,632
So when we got there, to the pond, there wasn't much water. It was just a small pond.

375
00:27:42,633 --> 00:27:46,299
I saw a man right push it out.. and now he managed to get it. You know what it was?

376
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:50,399
A hot potato he was eating. The SS man.

377
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,132
And when I'm telling people, see there was a little pond there.

378
00:27:54,133 --> 00:28:00,532
You can't see, everything has changed. All this what you see is not what it was like.

379
00:28:00,533 --> 00:28:09,466
There were barracks, here.. and along barracks here. If you go, I don't know, have you been to Dachau?

380
00:28:09,467 --> 00:28:10,199
IV: Yes.

381
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,066
MH: There, you can see where the barracks were.

382
00:28:13,067 --> 00:28:18,266
In this (???), nothing has changed. Here, of course, they have changed everything.

383
00:28:18,267 --> 00:28:25,666
People who don't know, came, say - a person came here, doesn't know that there was a camp or anything.

384
00:28:25,667 --> 00:28:30,132
You wouldn't think so, from a distance. Until you go and you see what it's like..

385
00:28:30,133 --> 00:28:33,866
From a distance, you wouldn't know that there was a concentration camp as you entered.

386
00:28:33,867 --> 00:28:41,132
You see houses here, you see beautiful pine-trees, you know. I think, also beautiful, beautiful area.

387
00:28:41,133 --> 00:28:45,566
You know... This was a killing machine.

388
00:28:45,567 --> 00:28:50,532
IV: During all this time, I think you nearly spent one year in these camps.

389
00:28:50,533 --> 00:28:58,199
MH: Yes, one year because the Hungarians were brought - you see, if you know the history, Eichmann, it was coming to the end of the war.

390
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,032
They knew Germany was losing the war. Alright.

391
00:29:02,033 --> 00:29:06,566
The Hungarian Jews were the last Jews who still remained.

392
00:29:06,567 --> 00:29:14,199
They had murdered, they had killed all the Polish Jews, the Latvians, and all of the rest of Europe were already finished.

393
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,999
They were the last, last remnants were the Hungarian Jews.

394
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,699
Now Eichmann was in Budapest. I don't know if you read the history of what happened.

395
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:31,132
Now, the war is coming to an end, they were losing, let's say, don't know, they said: "These are the last people we got to murder." The Final Solution.

396
00:29:31,133 --> 00:29:36,499
That was the Final Solution. So, they couldn't get enough trains, you know.

397
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:46,666
When we reached ahm, Auschwitz, the crematoriums were working overtime. They couldn't kill people enough, ah, quick enough.

398
00:29:46,667 --> 00:29:48,066
As many, you know..

399
00:29:48,067 --> 00:29:54,532
They couldn't get enough trains to get the last. Because you know, the Russians were not far.

400
00:29:54,533 --> 00:30:00,466
When I'm telling you, we were so naive in our village. Do you know.

401
00:30:00,467 --> 00:30:07,132
If we had known what was going on in the world, what was happening and we knew -

402
00:30:07,133 --> 00:30:12,366
If we had known that the Russians were only 20-30 kilometres away, the front was..

403
00:30:12,367 --> 00:30:14,099
They were losing, the Germans.

404
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:19,299
We were in the forest, we could have hidden. We, we could have survived, we didn't know.

405
00:30:19,300 --> 00:30:24,599
We were so.. Actually, naive is the wrong word.

406
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,999
It's not right. We were ignorant, we didn't know what's going on.

407
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:32,999
We were an isolated place in the Carpathian Mountains. We didn't know what was going on.

408
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:40,232
Had we known, we could have hidden in the mountains. They would never have found us. In the.. in the forest.

409
00:30:40,233 --> 00:30:47,399
And.. after we were taken away, do you know, it was only about 2-3 weeks later that it was liberated.

410
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:52,499
Where the Russians were.. It was only two, three weeks later after that we were taken away.

411
00:30:52,500 --> 00:30:59,432
All that area was liberated by the Red Army. So, you see.. we didn't know.

412
00:30:59,433 --> 00:31:04,799
I'm here today because we didn't know.

413
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:13,366
Had we known, it was easy for us to hide. We had our own places, we had a forest.

414
00:31:13,367 --> 00:31:21,532
We found, I found the record now, we had so many.. ah, what's the name, properties in Romania.

415
00:31:21,533 --> 00:31:24,832
Because I tried to get back from Romania my property.

416
00:31:24,833 --> 00:31:32,566
So they said, you have to do this, you know, legal things. So, I appointed a lawyer in Romania, to do the research.

417
00:31:32,567 --> 00:31:33,766
So I said, look here.

418
00:31:33,767 --> 00:31:40,566
I can give you a few names because it was still going from, back to the Austro-Hungarian Empire, that area.

419
00:31:40,567 --> 00:31:46,132
So, every property that you had, had a name and a number.

420
00:31:46,133 --> 00:31:52,032
So, when I was a boy of eleven, twelve, I used to go in the fields. So I knew names and numbers.

421
00:31:52,033 --> 00:31:57,799
So I said to the lawyer, look here. I want you to work on my case to get our property back.

422
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:03,232
Cause we entitled to it. I didn't sell it or something, it's.. we were taken away.

423
00:32:03,233 --> 00:32:06,032
So, I says, I can give you half.. six names.

424
00:32:06,033 --> 00:32:10,666
So, we paid him, he says: "I'm going to do research."

425
00:32:10,667 --> 00:32:14,232
So, we find the legal documents, everything.

426
00:32:14,233 --> 00:32:19,132
It was not in the village because it was in the town, Vișeu, where we were taken. That's the nearest town.

427
00:32:19,133 --> 00:32:24,866
The records are kept. He worked for about a week and he found 90 properties.

428
00:32:24,867 --> 00:32:29,032
We didn't, I didn't even realise how wealthy we were, big landowners.

429
00:32:29,033 --> 00:32:35,032
He found 90 properties on our name, on our family name. You know.

430
00:32:35,033 --> 00:32:40,266
So, all this land, we had forests, land, all different, you know.

431
00:32:40,267 --> 00:32:44,666
We had big farms with cattle, we had thousands of sheep and cattle.

432
00:32:44,667 --> 00:32:49,499
We have, very big farmers. And today..

433
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:54,032
Even today, I'm fighting all the time, it's a waste of time, I can't get my property back.

434
00:32:54,033 --> 00:32:57,966
Because the Romanians are corrupt and they, they don't want to give you..

435
00:32:57,967 --> 00:33:01,999
All I'm doing is, I've given up, I'm not fighting anymore.

436
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,999
I've just had enough. I've paid lawyers, they're corrupt, they're rotten.

437
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,932
All they want to do is take your money and do nothing. In Romania.

438
00:33:09,933 --> 00:33:12,866
IV: So one last question.

439
00:33:12,867 --> 00:33:18,267
CM: Halt.