1 00:00:00,633 --> 00:00:11,232 SB: I was worried. Because as, in the camps, they say it was that every changes for the worse. 2 00:00:11,233 --> 00:00:17,732 Going from one camp to another, I was worse, it's going to be worse than the previous one. 3 00:00:17,733 --> 00:00:22,299 That was my first impression, it was what was going through my mind. 4 00:00:22,300 --> 00:00:31,866 IV: And, so can you tell a little bit about the hygienic standard, about a lot of people who've been there. 5 00:00:31,867 --> 00:00:33,999 I think it was very overcrowded, the last weeks. 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:34,666 SB: Where? 7 00:00:34,667 --> 00:00:36,666 IV: In Flossenbürg. 8 00:00:36,667 --> 00:00:38,166 So, the situation... 9 00:00:38,167 --> 00:00:49,332 SB: No, in.. In the children's barrack, in barrack 16, it was overcrowded, of course, like in other barrack as you said. 10 00:00:49,333 --> 00:01:00,799 But we did not mix much with the rest because we went out, we were counted and end. 11 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,666 And then went out to work. 12 00:01:03,667 --> 00:01:10,566 I said, you usually volunteered, you volunteered to one thing, whatever you can find. 13 00:01:10,567 --> 00:01:13,799 Rather than walk about, doing nothing. 14 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:23,132 IV: So, do you think the situation in the children's barrack was more comfortable than in the rest of the camp? 15 00:01:23,133 --> 00:01:30,699 SB: The situation in the children's barrack, it was overcrowded. 16 00:01:30,700 --> 00:01:39,266 But until he found out that we were Jewish, it was reasonable. 17 00:01:39,267 --> 00:01:42,932 You know, you could live, that was that way. 18 00:01:42,933 --> 00:01:48,232 Without much.. I didn't, I wasn't afraid I'm going to be hit. 19 00:01:48,233 --> 00:01:58,466 He was behaving like a human being, this Kapo. But he was wild, he was the oldest man I have seen in any camp. 20 00:01:58,467 --> 00:02:00,332 He was an old man. 21 00:02:00,333 --> 00:02:08,499 His, his eyes, particular, they were the color of bleached denim. 22 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:12,032 Really, they were matt, not glossy. 23 00:02:12,033 --> 00:02:15,732 He had this mop of grey hair. 24 00:02:15,733 --> 00:02:25,532 He must have been a criminal, he was a criminal, he had the green triangle. Oh.. 25 00:02:25,533 --> 00:02:32,232 IV: And being in this children's barrack, did you see what happened in the rest of the camp? 26 00:02:32,233 --> 00:02:37,066 SB: No, no. 27 00:02:37,067 --> 00:02:40,932 In the camp, you were quite contained. 28 00:02:40,933 --> 00:02:49,399 For instance, in Auschwitz, you were not allowed to go into a strange barrack. 29 00:02:49,400 --> 00:03:02,199 I went with, you know, he was a barber, so he had some protection, you know. But you were not allowed. 30 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:10,399 IV: And so, the time you've been spending in Flossenbürg, that have been the last weeks of the camp. 31 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,099 SB: Of the camp, yes. 32 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:19,499 IV: And so eh, did you have the idea before that the end was near? The end of the war or the liberation came? 33 00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:26,332 SB: We knew the end of the war is somewhere near. 34 00:03:26,333 --> 00:03:34,399 We also knew it's the same token that it doesn't take long for us to be killed if they so wish. 35 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:40,199 Any moment, any day. You know.. 36 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:55,932 You, you were not liberated till you were liberated, even after the liberation we were still scared because the SS were still lurking in the woods. 37 00:03:55,933 --> 00:03:58,166 And we knew it. 38 00:03:58,167 --> 00:04:13,766 So, it didn't feel safe till I was on the road. Going, you know, trying to get to Neunburg. 39 00:04:13,767 --> 00:04:20,866 IV: So in your story, you told me a lot of things that helped you to survive. 40 00:04:20,867 --> 00:04:21,566 SB: Yeah. 41 00:04:21,567 --> 00:04:30,532 IV: I think that's physical survive - what did you think, what helped you to survive mentally? 42 00:04:30,533 --> 00:04:36,899 SB: It's very, very difficult, how I survived mentally. 43 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:53,132 I suppose, you know, quite a lot of it. For me, contained, I did not mix much. With other prisoners. 44 00:04:53,133 --> 00:05:12,566 I managed over to preserve my strength, not doing what I don't have to do. Even talking was an effort. You know, even talking. 45 00:05:12,567 --> 00:05:23,999 IV: And what do you think, in all this time, in all these camps on your odyssey, what do you think, what was the most hardest and terrible thing for you? 46 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,432 SB: The worst time? 47 00:05:25,433 --> 00:05:26,666 IV: Yes. 48 00:05:26,667 --> 00:05:30,632 SB: Was the camp in Poland. 49 00:05:30,633 --> 00:05:42,032 People will probably laugh at me when I say have been to Birkenau and Auschwitz, to say the worst camp in Poland. I will tell you why. 50 00:05:42,033 --> 00:05:45,466 In Poland I was for three years in the camp. 51 00:05:45,467 --> 00:05:51,266 Now, in three years we didn't have a change of shirt. 52 00:05:51,267 --> 00:05:57,733 We were eaten alive by vermin. 53 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:07,667 We worked with Poles, they were not of much help at all. 54 00:06:09,333 --> 00:06:19,599 And there, you had hunger on top, on top of the hard work and hunger, you couldn't sleep because of the vermin. 55 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,233 And that's why the outbreak of typhus.. 56 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:33,032 IV: Well, okay. I will change - 57 00:06:33,033 --> 00:06:36,067 SB: This is personal - 58 00:06:39,767 --> 00:06:47,699 AA: Salek, in Neunburg vorm Wald, you were offered a chance to immigrate. 59 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:52,132 How did you get the chance to immigrate to England or the USA? 60 00:06:52,133 --> 00:07:03,932 SB: Now, I told you the story about when we were in Neunburg, the commandant, the American commandant of the town put up a notice 61 00:07:03,933 --> 00:07:14,866 that anyone of the DPs, or people from the camp, who want to emigrate should come register. 62 00:07:14,867 --> 00:07:20,166 That we have a chance to emigrate to America, to England, to Canada, to Australia. 63 00:07:20,167 --> 00:07:25,032 Anyway, everybody put down, registered. 64 00:07:25,033 --> 00:07:35,999 Several weeks afterwards, another notice appeared that the people who registered should come with their belongings at such and such date. 65 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:40,366 We arrived there, to the townhall, outside the townhall. 66 00:07:40,367 --> 00:07:52,699 There were a large American lorry, a G.I. and the driver. And eh, we got into, onto the lorry, they didn't say much. 67 00:07:52,700 --> 00:07:59,132 Gave us an iron ration each, a box which food... 68 00:07:59,133 --> 00:08:08,432 And off we went and one of the chap had a top hat he brought and he started singing, you know, "Wir fahren nach England." 69 00:08:08,433 --> 00:08:17,232 So, this chap actually escaped from Winzer, they drove us to Winzer, to the village. 70 00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:22,966 He drove us, it was guarded, outside with Polish soldiers and American soldiers. 71 00:08:22,967 --> 00:08:24,899 Full armed, outside. 72 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:31,032 We drove in and eh.. the driver got out and said, "Down!" 73 00:08:31,033 --> 00:08:35,466 So we said, "Down? We're going to England?" 74 00:08:35,467 --> 00:08:41,899 He said, "Look, I've got my orders here, it says I should bring you here and come back empty. Down!" 75 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:49,766 So we got down, a Polish officer appeared and said, "I will show you to your quarters. You got two barracks." 76 00:08:49,767 --> 00:08:56,899 There were two barracks, a little bit away from the.. we got the two barracks, not enough blankets. 77 00:08:56,900 --> 00:08:59,199 Nothing else. 78 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:04,966 So, oh yes - and they said, "You are not allowed to leave the camp." 79 00:09:04,967 --> 00:09:10,199 That's odd, from one concentration camp to another. 80 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,299 "And you take your food with the soldiers, you just join the queue." 81 00:09:15,300 --> 00:09:18,899 So, we did. We didn't like it. 82 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:26,832 After staying there for a couple of weeks or so, a lady from the UNRRA appeared. 83 00:09:26,833 --> 00:09:38,999 She introduced herself that she's from the UNRRA and.. She has the jurisdiction of the people from the camps. 84 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,832 And she came to inquire whether we are right, whether we need anything. 85 00:09:44,833 --> 00:09:51,999 So we told her, we need blankets, we want radio and complained. 86 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:59,632 Complained about not allowed to leave the camp and to have to queue for our food with the soldiers. 87 00:09:59,633 --> 00:10:04,899 She said, "Alright, leave it with me, I'll be back next week." 88 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:06,166 Which she did. 89 00:10:06,167 --> 00:10:10,399 She brought radio, she brought extra blankets. 90 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:16,166 And she said, "You are allowed to go in and out of the camp at wish. 91 00:10:16,167 --> 00:10:23,666 As far as going to England, while you stay here, no chance. 92 00:10:23,667 --> 00:10:38,599 But", she said, "I know of a place where, if you are willing to go there, you might be able to emigrate from there. So, would you like to?" 93 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:45,499 Everybody, like one man, "Yes!" That's how we got to Indersdorf. 94 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:48,866 AA: And how did you get there? On an open lorry? 95 00:10:48,867 --> 00:10:55,132 SB: From.. eh, you mean, from - 96 00:10:55,133 --> 00:10:57,032 AA: From Winzer to Indersdorf? 97 00:10:57,033 --> 00:11:00,732 SB: From Winzer - I can't remember. In a lorry, yes, an open lorry. 98 00:11:00,733 --> 00:11:04,799 AA: And when you arrived, how was the reception? 99 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:10,666 SB: When we arrived, it was stairs up, there was lined up, you know, the management. 100 00:11:10,667 --> 00:11:16,866 Lilian Robbins and Marx and you know, they were all lined up there. 101 00:11:16,867 --> 00:11:25,466 And shortly, you know, she made, she made a short speech, put us at ease. 102 00:11:25,467 --> 00:11:29,832 We went in, were told first to have a bath. 103 00:11:29,833 --> 00:11:31,032 AA: Oh, that's - 104 00:11:31,033 --> 00:11:33,666 SB: Right, we went downstairs to the bath. 105 00:11:33,667 --> 00:11:41,999 It, it was not, eh.. the nuns, it was the nurses. 106 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:48,399 AA: But did, did they expect you to be babies? Why did they, why did they want to bathe you? 107 00:11:48,400 --> 00:12:02,166 SB: Why did they want to bathe in every camp? You couldn't make a move without, without going, going to the bath. Probably they knew, that, probably we're not very clean. 108 00:12:02,167 --> 00:12:05,166 Not far wrong, they were not far wrong. 109 00:12:05,167 --> 00:12:17,699 I was saying, you know, the odd thing was, people couldn't understand, we were not civilised. 110 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,266 We lost our civilisation there. 111 00:12:20,267 --> 00:12:30,599 When we arrived in Neunburg, eh, I told the gentleman before, you know, we got ration cards. 112 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:43,566 We queued up for the meat, I remember, I was queueing and got in you know, and showed him what we want, parceled up the meat and said, "It's so many marks." 113 00:12:43,567 --> 00:12:47,632 I said, "What marks? What's marks?" 114 00:12:47,633 --> 00:12:54,932 He said, "Money." - "Money?" We didn't see money, had no money for four years. What was money.. 115 00:12:54,933 --> 00:13:01,532 You know, like this. We were completely different. 116 00:13:01,533 --> 00:13:06,699 AA: And, eh, but you wanted to have a bath there? 117 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:08,399 SB: Oh yes. 118 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:13,199 AA: And then, what kind of clothes did you get? 119 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:24,599 SB: Well, I, I had my clothes, I was quite happy with the "KL" was removed, was turned inside out. 120 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,099 AA: The jacket, the jacket with the "KL"? 121 00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:34,732 SB: Yes. I had another suit too, so they gave us white sweaters. 122 00:13:34,733 --> 00:13:36,966 Each one of us got a white sweater. 123 00:13:36,967 --> 00:13:46,766 There's one of the pictures when you see a white sweater, it was likely to have been, you know, with us in Winzer. In Winzer. 124 00:13:46,767 --> 00:13:52,432 AA: And the meals, do you remember the meals? The food there? 125 00:13:52,433 --> 00:13:57,299 SB: No. I can't remember really the food. 126 00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:00,266 AA: And the dormitories? 127 00:14:00,267 --> 00:14:01,866 SB: The dormitories I remember. 128 00:14:01,867 --> 00:14:09,166 I was sleeping opposite the door, the second bed. 129 00:14:09,167 --> 00:14:13,799 You know, they were that way, lined up. 130 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:25,866 And Bessermann was sleeping in the corner, I remember, when (???) what Bessermann said, when he had a friend, a Polish girl. 131 00:14:25,867 --> 00:14:27,132 AA: Yes, please tell us. 132 00:14:27,133 --> 00:14:31,166 SB: He stood up on the bed actually when he shouted it out. 133 00:14:31,167 --> 00:14:42,832 AA: But an UNRRA person was against it, there was a love affair between Bessermann and this Polish girl. And eh - 134 00:14:42,833 --> 00:14:54,166 SB: No, it... Having read the list of the girls, of the Polish girls, their names, their date of births. 135 00:14:54,167 --> 00:14:59,299 You had a lot who were a) they were not Catholics, they were Protestants. 136 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:03,032 b) They were not even Polish. 137 00:15:03,033 --> 00:15:10,666 Some.. they were, could have been Ukrainians, Lithuanians. 138 00:15:10,667 --> 00:15:18,532 And the Poles did not like, they didn't like Protestants, they didn't like anyone foreign and so on. 139 00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:23,699 So, a lot of the girls felt ostracised, not wanted. 140 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:33,566 And the Jewish girls did not mind, they didn't ask whether they are Ukrainian or Lithuanian or Protestant or whatever. 141 00:15:33,567 --> 00:15:40,966 So, they came in, they chatted, you know, and so on. So.. that does not. 142 00:15:40,967 --> 00:15:48,166 You look at the pictures, you won't see a Polish youth, maybe the little ones. 143 00:15:48,167 --> 00:15:57,266 But the youth with whom we - in any of the pictures with us. They just ignored us. 144 00:15:57,267 --> 00:15:59,932 AA: The Polish boys and - 145 00:15:59,933 --> 00:16:03,399 SB: The Polish youth, they were Polish youths. 146 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:08,999 Maybe our age or maybe a little bit younger but they ignored us completely. 147 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,299 AA: And there was a football match between - 148 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:18,166 SB: Oh yes, yes, and that was started - they started off by calling us names and so on. 149 00:16:18,167 --> 00:16:29,232 And of course, a fight broke out and no more match. Mr Marx, poor Mr Marx. He started it.. 150 00:16:29,233 --> 00:16:35,666 AA: But the relationship between the Jewish boys and the Polish girls was better? 151 00:16:35,667 --> 00:16:41,766 SB: Oh yes, the Polish - maybe some Polish girls didn't like Jews, they just did not fraternise. 152 00:16:41,767 --> 00:16:48,966 But most of them, as I said, they probably did not consider them as Polish at all. 153 00:16:48,967 --> 00:16:58,332 AA: And was Kurt Klappholz, was he your leader, somehow? Kurt? Kurt, was he the leader of your group? 154 00:16:58,333 --> 00:17:07,799 SB: He, he was the leader in as much, he was nominally in charge of the dormitory. 155 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,999 So, he was a leader. 156 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,999 He was the only one who spoke a bit of English. 157 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,666 AA: And can you describe this situation here? 158 00:17:21,667 --> 00:17:38,566 SB: Ah, I remember it but I can't describe what it was about. But looking at it, like yourself, this represents (???), you can't move out. 159 00:17:38,567 --> 00:17:49,766 I'm - this is the lousing party, spraying.. And this is the shaving, cut your hair. 160 00:17:49,767 --> 00:17:51,332 It represented something like it. 161 00:17:51,333 --> 00:17:57,866 AA: And when did you perform this? Eisenhower, Eisenhower wanted to come. 162 00:17:57,867 --> 00:18:03,032 SB: Oh yes, this was a performance meant for General Eisenhower. 163 00:18:03,033 --> 00:18:11,332 But then we decided, you know, we were upset he couldn't come, that we will carry on, Miss Robins decided it. 164 00:18:11,333 --> 00:18:19,799 We will carry on as if he was here - we go through with the play, with the singing, everything else. 165 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:26,666 AA: And for this event, you drew a picture of Eisenhower? 166 00:18:26,667 --> 00:18:28,332 SB: Yes. 167 00:18:28,333 --> 00:18:29,999 AA: And it's in this picture here? 168 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:36,832 SB: Yes, it's there, at the bottom. In the flame. 169 00:18:36,833 --> 00:18:40,166 AA: So you were always good at drawing? 170 00:18:40,167 --> 00:18:45,566 SB: Ah, yes, I always liked it, I enjoyed it as well as I enjoyed my job. 171 00:18:45,567 --> 00:18:54,099 AA: And, what did you want to show Eisenhower with this play here? 172 00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:58,599 You wanted to show Eisenhower what you had gone through? 173 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:09,999 SB: Maybe, I can't remember the details, really not. Probably someone else thought of the play. I was just a player. 174 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:15,232 AA: And Kurt Klappholz wanted to conduct the choir. 175 00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:22,099 SB: Yes, he was always good at it. When he listened to music, he was always going like this, you know. 176 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:26,532 AA: And it was "My bonnie is over the ocean"? 177 00:19:26,533 --> 00:19:27,499 SB: Pardon? 178 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:30,432 AA: He wanted to conduct "My bonnie is over the ocean"? 179 00:19:30,433 --> 00:19:33,899 SB: Yes, yes, that's right, he was conducting.... 180 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:40,999 AA: And do you remember the different UNRRA people? The different UNRRA people? 181 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,232 SB: I didn't know them, I knew them by sight. 182 00:19:45,233 --> 00:19:54,799 By sight, I only was in touch, I spoke to Mr Marx or Lilian Robbins, I couldn't speak English. 183 00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:02,432 Marx, it was Marx who conversed a bit in German and eh, Lilian Robbins too... 184 00:20:02,433 --> 00:20:07,566 AA: And but you remembered all the different names, do you remember Greta Fischer? 185 00:20:07,567 --> 00:20:13,966 SB: No, before, before we left - I don't, what, maybe I do it - 186 00:20:13,967 --> 00:20:25,399 I went around and asked them to give me their name and addresses, until then I didn't know. They did it, you know, a piece of paper. 187 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,932 AA: Ah, and that's how you had all the addresses. 188 00:20:28,933 --> 00:20:34,332 SB: That's right, that's right. Their names.. But before, I didn't know their names. 189 00:20:34,333 --> 00:20:40,999 Some of them were teachers - again, I didn't even take part in the lessons. 190 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:47,232 I was, I was very apart from most people. 191 00:20:47,233 --> 00:20:53,099 I had, when I had friends, I had very loyal friends but few. Always. 192 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:57,132 AA: Yes, tell us about your friendship. 193 00:20:57,133 --> 00:21:00,499 The friends were very, very important. 194 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:09,999 SB: No, certain people, all kinds of people, I had, I was very good friends with all kinds of people. 195 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:23,099 I had friends from, from a Lord to - yes, no joke. I was very good friends with a man who eventually became Lord. 196 00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:24,466 AA: But here in England, later? 197 00:21:24,467 --> 00:21:27,132 SB: Yes. He was English born. 198 00:21:27,133 --> 00:21:32,766 AA: And who were your best friends in Indersdorf? Who were your best friends - ? 199 00:21:32,767 --> 00:21:42,199 SB: In, in Indersdorf, of course, Kurt who was the one I met and Elli Rottenberg. 200 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,266 I met them at the same time in a hospital. 201 00:21:45,267 --> 00:22:00,366 When I went, I went, I broke my arm and they suggested I stay in the hospital, so I said, "Alright, I will only sleep there but not during the day." 202 00:22:00,367 --> 00:22:08,632 Next to me was Alec in bed, so I told the people they should give my food to Alec. 203 00:22:08,633 --> 00:22:12,699 Which he liked very much. Food was food. 204 00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:20,866 And eh, on the way out, I met Kurt. And we started talking and from then on, you know. 205 00:22:20,867 --> 00:22:25,732 And these were the first two people. 206 00:22:25,733 --> 00:22:30,232 AA: And you stayed, remained friends all your life? 207 00:22:30,233 --> 00:22:33,066 SB: Oh yes, very much so. 208 00:22:33,067 --> 00:22:40,199 AA: And what about the nuns? Do you remember the nuns at the monastery? 209 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,832 SB: Yes, I do remember them of course. 210 00:22:43,833 --> 00:22:46,432 AA: And how were they? Did they understand - 211 00:22:46,433 --> 00:22:50,199 SB: Oh, they, they were always busy but they didn't see you. 212 00:22:50,200 --> 00:23:05,932 They didn't give you a smile or stop to say a word, nothing, they were just - going wherever they had to go, do what's, what they wanted to do or they had to do. 213 00:23:05,933 --> 00:23:11,132 AA: And we have a picture with Kurt, Kurt bathing a baby. 214 00:23:11,133 --> 00:23:13,432 Did you also helped with the babies? 215 00:23:13,433 --> 00:23:28,032 SB: No, I didn't actually. I don't even know where it was, it's not on purpose, I just.. 216 00:23:28,033 --> 00:23:33,466 AA: And then you got a letter, when you went to England, you got a letter. 217 00:23:33,467 --> 00:23:40,766 SB: Everybody got the same letter. Who went to England, from Miss Robins. Everybody. 218 00:23:40,767 --> 00:23:44,066 AA: And do you remember what was in the letter? 219 00:23:44,067 --> 00:23:48,099 SB: Roughly. 220 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:50,899 AA: Did you keep this letter? 221 00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:56,799 SB: Yes. But now, you are in possession of it or somebody. 222 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:08,032 AA: And the situation when the picture was taken, for your identity. For your identity card. 223 00:24:08,033 --> 00:24:09,832 When this picture was taken. 224 00:24:09,833 --> 00:24:18,966 SB: Yes, this identity card again which is now in Flossenbürg or, or I don't know, Indersdorf. 225 00:24:18,967 --> 00:24:21,899 AA: And you were the person who drew all - 226 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:29,999 SB: I was writing on, on all of them except for the, you look at the pictures of the Polish people, that's a different writing. 227 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,499 AA: That's a different writing? 228 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:34,766 SB: Yah. 229 00:24:34,767 --> 00:24:38,466 AA: So you wrote these names here? 230 00:24:38,467 --> 00:24:39,666 SB: Right. 231 00:24:39,667 --> 00:24:41,799 AA: Many of the names you wrote on the - 232 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:54,799 SB: I will tell you which I - ah, that's a little one, that's different to read. 233 00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:03,632 No, even, even - you know, Grussman, you look at the writing from Grussman. 234 00:25:03,633 --> 00:25:05,666 AA: And that's different? 235 00:25:05,667 --> 00:25:08,666 SB: This is different writing, I did not write.. 236 00:25:08,667 --> 00:25:11,999 AA: And you wrote all the names for the Jewish? For the Jewish? 237 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,966 SB: She wasn't. It's a she. 238 00:25:14,967 --> 00:25:16,599 AA: No, she was not. 239 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:29,399 SB: It was a she. And she was not Polish either. Sinaida. Her name's Sinaida. 240 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,966 This is a Polish boy, this is a Polish girl. 241 00:25:34,967 --> 00:25:38,799 Yeah, these two. 242 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,299 AA: And, is this your handwriting here? With the Polish - 243 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:46,799 SB: Polish, that's not my writing. 244 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,766 AA: Oh, only the Jewish? 245 00:25:48,767 --> 00:25:50,032 SB: No, no. 246 00:25:50,033 --> 00:25:55,866 AA: But for example, eh, Sztajnkeler, Moszek Sztajnkeler - 247 00:25:55,867 --> 00:25:57,332 SB: Sztajnkeler is.. 248 00:25:57,333 --> 00:25:58,732 AA: Ja, that's your handwriting? 249 00:25:58,733 --> 00:25:59,999 SB: Yeah. Kleinman is.. 250 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:08,666 AA: And how were these pictures taken? How were these pictures taken? 251 00:26:08,667 --> 00:26:12,966 SB: I can't, I can't tell you really. 252 00:26:12,967 --> 00:26:19,966 I, they were taken outside, not indoors. Outside. 253 00:26:19,967 --> 00:26:28,366 I remember that I was writing, then taking the pictures. 254 00:26:28,367 --> 00:26:30,732 AA: And eh - 255 00:26:30,733 --> 00:26:34,832 SB: We had like an office, Kurt, it was a big room. 256 00:26:34,833 --> 00:26:43,999 Kurt, myself, were sitting there in the office. You called it office.. 257 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,899 We had nothing else to do. 258 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:56,866 AA: And then you went to England? And then you came to England? 259 00:26:56,867 --> 00:26:59,866 SB: Yes. 260 00:26:59,867 --> 00:27:03,966 AA: And where did you go first? Or how did you come to England? 261 00:27:03,967 --> 00:27:19,232 SB: We went - No, we went to a little place called Wintershill Hall which was given by a.. Lord, Jewish Lord, I can't remember his, his name. 262 00:27:19,233 --> 00:27:27,566 And it was his residence, he gave up for our use. He gave it, a lovely place. 263 00:27:27,567 --> 00:27:39,832 And from there, they sent people, groups to all kinds of places, to Manchester to London, to Scotland, different groups. 264 00:27:39,833 --> 00:27:46,566 And they didn't tell us, they told us we're going to London. 265 00:27:46,567 --> 00:27:58,432 They didn't tell us it's a religious place. So when we came, I found out it was very religious place. 266 00:27:58,433 --> 00:28:00,299 AA: Was it in Finchley Road? 267 00:28:00,300 --> 00:28:01,232 SB: Pardon? 268 00:28:01,233 --> 00:28:02,566 AA: Was it in Finchley Road? 269 00:28:02,567 --> 00:28:06,732 SB: Yes, in Finchley Road. Mostly religious boys. 270 00:28:06,733 --> 00:28:16,232 So, after a while, Kurt and Witold Gutt and myself were asked to leave. 271 00:28:16,233 --> 00:28:25,099 So, Witold Gutt and myself moved together and Alec volunteered to come with us. 272 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:26,999 AA: And where did you go to then? 273 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,599 SB: We, we went to a very nice place actually. 274 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,166 In Golders Green. 275 00:28:33,167 --> 00:28:43,732 It was near a park and it was quite a modern house, for the time. It has central heating, not many houses had central heating then. 276 00:28:43,733 --> 00:28:46,566 And a nice big bathroom. 277 00:28:46,567 --> 00:28:50,366 AA: So who was within this group? Alec Ward - ? 278 00:28:50,367 --> 00:28:51,566 SB: Pardon? 279 00:28:51,567 --> 00:28:59,132 AA: Who was within this group? Who went away from eh, Finchley Road? Who was it? Alec Ward - ? 280 00:28:59,133 --> 00:29:04,999 SB: Alec Ward and Witold Gutt and myself, we moved together. 281 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,332 Kurt left a bit earlier. 282 00:29:07,333 --> 00:29:13,232 And he had a lodging somewhere else, I can't remember where, Belsize Park or something. 283 00:29:13,233 --> 00:29:20,432 AA: And eh, so first of all, you were in Wintershill Hall. 284 00:29:20,433 --> 00:29:23,566 How long were you in Wintershill Hall then? 285 00:29:23,567 --> 00:29:34,232 SB: I can't tell you. Not too long. Eh.. 286 00:29:34,233 --> 00:29:37,699 I think, maybe a couple of months, at the most. 287 00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:39,066 AA: And then - 288 00:29:39,067 --> 00:29:47,532 SB: Finchley Road. And from Finchley Road I moved to this place and from this place to, to another place. 289 00:29:47,533 --> 00:30:01,032 I - three, four places, we moved between 1945 and eh, 1950. 290 00:30:01,033 --> 00:30:08,332 AA: And was it good to be among other survivors? Was it good to be with Kurt and - 291 00:30:08,333 --> 00:30:13,999 SB: Oh, we made friends with local people, you know, we lived with people. 292 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,866 In some places, very nice people, you know. 293 00:30:17,867 --> 00:30:24,099 They were paid, the people were paid by the committee. 294 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:28,666 AA: And what kind of education did you get there? 295 00:30:28,667 --> 00:30:36,966 SB: Well, this varied, like Kurt and Witek went to school to take matriculation. 296 00:30:36,967 --> 00:30:42,332 Kurt had at first a little job at the photographer. 297 00:30:42,333 --> 00:30:49,299 I went straight to college, to art college and I was living in the hostel. 298 00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:55,666 And then, I was out of the hostel, still at art college. 299 00:30:55,667 --> 00:31:05,666 And Witek was living with (???), he was going to a different school. Different from Kurt. 300 00:31:05,667 --> 00:31:10,366 AA: And at the beginning, you got general education? You learned English and math..? 301 00:31:10,367 --> 00:31:18,699 SB: No, general education is what I brought from Poland, not much. 302 00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:23,566 AA: And then you got a job after art school, you got a job? 303 00:31:23,567 --> 00:31:29,899 SB: That's right, I got a job and eh.. In an advertising agency. 304 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:34,632 And I worked for this company for 25 years. 305 00:31:34,633 --> 00:31:41,332 The last few years, I was a director of the company. 306 00:31:41,333 --> 00:31:45,199 AA: And how important was work for you? 307 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,732 SB: Very. I lived for it. 308 00:31:48,733 --> 00:31:57,499 I particular, I liked type, I was a typographer too, a very good typographer.. 309 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:16,099 I told you that eh, this summer, when was it, probably in August, I had an invitation from my managing director and I had lunch with him and the chief copywriter. 310 00:32:16,100 --> 00:32:30,299 And he write, wrote in a book "To Benny, he made a tremendous contribution to CBVS, head of studio". 311 00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:34,332 He wrote down, after 38 years later. 312 00:32:34,333 --> 00:32:37,099 AA: But you deserve it. 313 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:41,132 SB: I told him, my best time was the last few years. 314 00:32:41,133 --> 00:32:51,432 I worked in a small, in a small company, all copywriters, we did not do advertising for newspapers. 315 00:32:51,433 --> 00:33:03,299 Brochures and (???) for companies, mainly financial, it was very interesting and terribly nice people. 316 00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:06,966 And I enjoyed it, every minute of it. 317 00:33:06,967 --> 00:33:15,766 And I would show you a letter I have from the managing director from there. 318 00:33:15,767 --> 00:33:18,299 AA: And when did you meet Charlotte? 319 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:37,800 SB: Oh, this, Charlotte I met in the 19-, I met her first in Wintershill Hall but I didn't even speak to her. Because she spoke Hungarian and German and English.