SB: I was worried. Because as, in the camps, they say it was that every changes for the worse.
Going from one camp to another, I was worse, it's going to be worse than the previous one.
That was my first impression, it was what was going through my mind.
IV: And, so can you tell a little bit about the hygienic standard, about a lot of people who've been there.
I think it was very overcrowded, the last weeks.
SB: Where?
IV: In Flossenbürg.
So, the situation...
SB: No, in.. In the children's barrack, in barrack 16, it was overcrowded, of course, like in other barrack as you said.
But we did not mix much with the rest because we went out, we were counted and end.
And then went out to work.
I said, you usually volunteered, you volunteered to one thing, whatever you can find.
Rather than walk about, doing nothing.
IV: So, do you think the situation in the children's barrack was more comfortable than in the rest of the camp?
SB: The situation in the children's barrack, it was overcrowded.
But until he found out that we were Jewish, it was reasonable.
You know, you could live, that was that way.
Without much.. I didn't, I wasn't afraid I'm going to be hit.
He was behaving like a human being, this Kapo. But he was wild, he was the oldest man I have seen in any camp.
He was an old man.
His, his eyes, particular, they were the color of bleached denim.
Really, they were matt, not glossy.
He had this mop of grey hair.
He must have been a criminal, he was a criminal, he had the green triangle. Oh..
IV: And being in this children's barrack, did you see what happened in the rest of the camp?
SB: No, no.
In the camp, you were quite contained.
For instance, in Auschwitz, you were not allowed to go into a strange barrack.
I went with, you know, he was a barber, so he had some protection, you know. But you were not allowed.
IV: And so, the time you've been spending in Flossenbürg, that have been the last weeks of the camp.
SB: Of the camp, yes.
IV: And so eh, did you have the idea before that the end was near? The end of the war or the liberation came?
SB: We knew the end of the war is somewhere near.
We also knew it's the same token that it doesn't take long for us to be killed if they so wish.
Any moment, any day. You know..
You, you were not liberated till you were liberated, even after the liberation we were still scared because the SS were still lurking in the woods.
And we knew it.
So, it didn't feel safe till I was on the road. Going, you know, trying to get to Neunburg.
IV: So in your story, you told me a lot of things that helped you to survive.
SB: Yeah.
IV: I think that's physical survive - what did you think, what helped you to survive mentally?
SB: It's very, very difficult, how I survived mentally.
I suppose, you know, quite a lot of it. For me, contained, I did not mix much. With other prisoners.
I managed over to preserve my strength, not doing what I don't have to do. Even talking was an effort. You know, even talking.
IV: And what do you think, in all this time, in all these camps on your odyssey, what do you think, what was the most hardest and terrible thing for you?
SB: The worst time?
IV: Yes.
SB: Was the camp in Poland.
People will probably laugh at me when I say have been to Birkenau and Auschwitz, to say the worst camp in Poland. I will tell you why.
In Poland I was for three years in the camp.
Now, in three years we didn't have a change of shirt.
We were eaten alive by vermin.
We worked with Poles, they were not of much help at all.
And there, you had hunger on top, on top of the hard work and hunger, you couldn't sleep because of the vermin.
And that's why the outbreak of typhus..
IV: Well, okay. I will change -
SB: This is personal -
AA: Salek, in Neunburg vorm Wald, you were offered a chance to immigrate.
How did you get the chance to immigrate to England or the USA?
SB: Now, I told you the story about when we were in Neunburg, the commandant, the American commandant of the town put up a notice
that anyone of the DPs, or people from the camp, who want to emigrate should come register.
That we have a chance to emigrate to America, to England, to Canada, to Australia.
Anyway, everybody put down, registered.
Several weeks afterwards, another notice appeared that the people who registered should come with their belongings at such and such date.
We arrived there, to the townhall, outside the townhall.
There were a large American lorry, a G.I. and the driver. And eh, we got into, onto the lorry, they didn't say much.
Gave us an iron ration each, a box which food...
And off we went and one of the chap had a top hat he brought and he started singing, you know, "Wir fahren nach England."
So, this chap actually escaped from Winzer, they drove us to Winzer, to the village.
He drove us, it was guarded, outside with Polish soldiers and American soldiers.
Full armed, outside.
We drove in and eh.. the driver got out and said, "Down!"
So we said, "Down? We're going to England?"
He said, "Look, I've got my orders here, it says I should bring you here and come back empty. Down!"
So we got down, a Polish officer appeared and said, "I will show you to your quarters. You got two barracks."
There were two barracks, a little bit away from the.. we got the two barracks, not enough blankets.
Nothing else.
So, oh yes - and they said, "You are not allowed to leave the camp."
That's odd, from one concentration camp to another.
"And you take your food with the soldiers, you just join the queue."
So, we did. We didn't like it.
After staying there for a couple of weeks or so, a lady from the UNRRA appeared.
She introduced herself that she's from the UNRRA and.. She has the jurisdiction of the people from the camps.
And she came to inquire whether we are right, whether we need anything.
So we told her, we need blankets, we want radio and complained.
Complained about not allowed to leave the camp and to have to queue for our food with the soldiers.
She said, "Alright, leave it with me, I'll be back next week."
Which she did.
She brought radio, she brought extra blankets.
And she said, "You are allowed to go in and out of the camp at wish.
As far as going to England, while you stay here, no chance.
But", she said, "I know of a place where, if you are willing to go there, you might be able to emigrate from there. So, would you like to?"
Everybody, like one man, "Yes!" That's how we got to Indersdorf.
AA: And how did you get there? On an open lorry?
SB: From.. eh, you mean, from -
AA: From Winzer to Indersdorf?
SB: From Winzer - I can't remember. In a lorry, yes, an open lorry.
AA: And when you arrived, how was the reception?
SB: When we arrived, it was stairs up, there was lined up, you know, the management.
Lilian Robbins and Marx and you know, they were all lined up there.
And shortly, you know, she made, she made a short speech, put us at ease.
We went in, were told first to have a bath.
AA: Oh, that's -
SB: Right, we went downstairs to the bath.
It, it was not, eh.. the nuns, it was the nurses.
AA: But did, did they expect you to be babies? Why did they, why did they want to bathe you?
SB: Why did they want to bathe in every camp? You couldn't make a move without, without going, going to the bath. Probably they knew, that, probably we're not very clean.
Not far wrong, they were not far wrong.
I was saying, you know, the odd thing was, people couldn't understand, we were not civilised.
We lost our civilisation there.
When we arrived in Neunburg, eh, I told the gentleman before, you know, we got ration cards.
We queued up for the meat, I remember, I was queueing and got in you know, and showed him what we want, parceled up the meat and said, "It's so many marks."
I said, "What marks? What's marks?"
He said, "Money." - "Money?" We didn't see money, had no money for four years. What was money..
You know, like this. We were completely different.
AA: And, eh, but you wanted to have a bath there?
SB: Oh yes.
AA: And then, what kind of clothes did you get?
SB: Well, I, I had my clothes, I was quite happy with the "KL" was removed, was turned inside out.
AA: The jacket, the jacket with the "KL"?
SB: Yes. I had another suit too, so they gave us white sweaters.
Each one of us got a white sweater.
There's one of the pictures when you see a white sweater, it was likely to have been, you know, with us in Winzer. In Winzer.
AA: And the meals, do you remember the meals? The food there?
SB: No. I can't remember really the food.
AA: And the dormitories?
SB: The dormitories I remember.
I was sleeping opposite the door, the second bed.
You know, they were that way, lined up.
And Bessermann was sleeping in the corner, I remember, when (???) what Bessermann said, when he had a friend, a Polish girl.
AA: Yes, please tell us.
SB: He stood up on the bed actually when he shouted it out.
AA: But an UNRRA person was against it, there was a love affair between Bessermann and this Polish girl. And eh -
SB: No, it... Having read the list of the girls, of the Polish girls, their names, their date of births.
You had a lot who were a) they were not Catholics, they were Protestants.
b) They were not even Polish.
Some.. they were, could have been Ukrainians, Lithuanians.
And the Poles did not like, they didn't like Protestants, they didn't like anyone foreign and so on.
So, a lot of the girls felt ostracised, not wanted.
And the Jewish girls did not mind, they didn't ask whether they are Ukrainian or Lithuanian or Protestant or whatever.
So, they came in, they chatted, you know, and so on. So.. that does not.
You look at the pictures, you won't see a Polish youth, maybe the little ones.
But the youth with whom we - in any of the pictures with us. They just ignored us.
AA: The Polish boys and -
SB: The Polish youth, they were Polish youths.
Maybe our age or maybe a little bit younger but they ignored us completely.
AA: And there was a football match between -
SB: Oh yes, yes, and that was started - they started off by calling us names and so on.
And of course, a fight broke out and no more match. Mr Marx, poor Mr Marx. He started it..
AA: But the relationship between the Jewish boys and the Polish girls was better?
SB: Oh yes, the Polish - maybe some Polish girls didn't like Jews, they just did not fraternise.
But most of them, as I said, they probably did not consider them as Polish at all.
AA: And was Kurt Klappholz, was he your leader, somehow? Kurt? Kurt, was he the leader of your group?
SB: He, he was the leader in as much, he was nominally in charge of the dormitory.
So, he was a leader.
He was the only one who spoke a bit of English.
AA: And can you describe this situation here?
SB: Ah, I remember it but I can't describe what it was about. But looking at it, like yourself, this represents (???), you can't move out.
I'm - this is the lousing party, spraying.. And this is the shaving, cut your hair.
It represented something like it.
AA: And when did you perform this? Eisenhower, Eisenhower wanted to come.
SB: Oh yes, this was a performance meant for General Eisenhower.
But then we decided, you know, we were upset he couldn't come, that we will carry on, Miss Robins decided it.
We will carry on as if he was here - we go through with the play, with the singing, everything else.
AA: And for this event, you drew a picture of Eisenhower?
SB: Yes.
AA: And it's in this picture here?
SB: Yes, it's there, at the bottom. In the flame.
AA: So you were always good at drawing?
SB: Ah, yes, I always liked it, I enjoyed it as well as I enjoyed my job.
AA: And, what did you want to show Eisenhower with this play here?
You wanted to show Eisenhower what you had gone through?
SB: Maybe, I can't remember the details, really not. Probably someone else thought of the play. I was just a player.
AA: And Kurt Klappholz wanted to conduct the choir.
SB: Yes, he was always good at it. When he listened to music, he was always going like this, you know.
AA: And it was "My bonnie is over the ocean"?
SB: Pardon?
AA: He wanted to conduct "My bonnie is over the ocean"?
SB: Yes, yes, that's right, he was conducting....
AA: And do you remember the different UNRRA people? The different UNRRA people?
SB: I didn't know them, I knew them by sight.
By sight, I only was in touch, I spoke to Mr Marx or Lilian Robbins, I couldn't speak English.
Marx, it was Marx who conversed a bit in German and eh, Lilian Robbins too...
AA: And but you remembered all the different names, do you remember Greta Fischer?
SB: No, before, before we left - I don't, what, maybe I do it -
I went around and asked them to give me their name and addresses, until then I didn't know. They did it, you know, a piece of paper.
AA: Ah, and that's how you had all the addresses.
SB: That's right, that's right. Their names.. But before, I didn't know their names.
Some of them were teachers - again, I didn't even take part in the lessons.
I was, I was very apart from most people.
I had, when I had friends, I had very loyal friends but few. Always.
AA: Yes, tell us about your friendship.
The friends were very, very important.
SB: No, certain people, all kinds of people, I had, I was very good friends with all kinds of people.
I had friends from, from a Lord to - yes, no joke. I was very good friends with a man who eventually became Lord.
AA: But here in England, later?
SB: Yes. He was English born.
AA: And who were your best friends in Indersdorf? Who were your best friends - ?
SB: In, in Indersdorf, of course, Kurt who was the one I met and Elli Rottenberg.
I met them at the same time in a hospital.
When I went, I went, I broke my arm and they suggested I stay in the hospital, so I said, "Alright, I will only sleep there but not during the day."
Next to me was Alec in bed, so I told the people they should give my food to Alec.
Which he liked very much. Food was food.
And eh, on the way out, I met Kurt. And we started talking and from then on, you know.
And these were the first two people.
AA: And you stayed, remained friends all your life?
SB: Oh yes, very much so.
AA: And what about the nuns? Do you remember the nuns at the monastery?
SB: Yes, I do remember them of course.
AA: And how were they? Did they understand -
SB: Oh, they, they were always busy but they didn't see you.
They didn't give you a smile or stop to say a word, nothing, they were just - going wherever they had to go, do what's, what they wanted to do or they had to do.
AA: And we have a picture with Kurt, Kurt bathing a baby.
Did you also helped with the babies?
SB: No, I didn't actually. I don't even know where it was, it's not on purpose, I just..
AA: And then you got a letter, when you went to England, you got a letter.
SB: Everybody got the same letter. Who went to England, from Miss Robins. Everybody.
AA: And do you remember what was in the letter?
SB: Roughly.
AA: Did you keep this letter?
SB: Yes. But now, you are in possession of it or somebody.
AA: And the situation when the picture was taken, for your identity. For your identity card.
When this picture was taken.
SB: Yes, this identity card again which is now in Flossenbürg or, or I don't know, Indersdorf.
AA: And you were the person who drew all -
SB: I was writing on, on all of them except for the, you look at the pictures of the Polish people, that's a different writing.
AA: That's a different writing?
SB: Yah.
AA: So you wrote these names here?
SB: Right.
AA: Many of the names you wrote on the -
SB: I will tell you which I - ah, that's a little one, that's different to read.
No, even, even - you know, Grussman, you look at the writing from Grussman.
AA: And that's different?
SB: This is different writing, I did not write..
AA: And you wrote all the names for the Jewish? For the Jewish?
SB: She wasn't. It's a she.
AA: No, she was not.
SB: It was a she. And she was not Polish either. Sinaida. Her name's Sinaida.
This is a Polish boy, this is a Polish girl.
Yeah, these two.
AA: And, is this your handwriting here? With the Polish -
SB: Polish, that's not my writing.
AA: Oh, only the Jewish?
SB: No, no.
AA: But for example, eh, Sztajnkeler, Moszek Sztajnkeler -
SB: Sztajnkeler is..
AA: Ja, that's your handwriting?
SB: Yeah. Kleinman is..
AA: And how were these pictures taken? How were these pictures taken?
SB: I can't, I can't tell you really.
I, they were taken outside, not indoors. Outside.
I remember that I was writing, then taking the pictures.
AA: And eh -
SB: We had like an office, Kurt, it was a big room.
Kurt, myself, were sitting there in the office. You called it office..
We had nothing else to do.
AA: And then you went to England? And then you came to England?
SB: Yes.
AA: And where did you go first? Or how did you come to England?
SB: We went - No, we went to a little place called Wintershill Hall which was given by a.. Lord, Jewish Lord, I can't remember his, his name.
And it was his residence, he gave up for our use. He gave it, a lovely place.
And from there, they sent people, groups to all kinds of places, to Manchester to London, to Scotland, different groups.
And they didn't tell us, they told us we're going to London.
They didn't tell us it's a religious place. So when we came, I found out it was very religious place.
AA: Was it in Finchley Road?
SB: Pardon?
AA: Was it in Finchley Road?
SB: Yes, in Finchley Road. Mostly religious boys.
So, after a while, Kurt and Witold Gutt and myself were asked to leave.
So, Witold Gutt and myself moved together and Alec volunteered to come with us.
AA: And where did you go to then?
SB: We, we went to a very nice place actually.
In Golders Green.
It was near a park and it was quite a modern house, for the time. It has central heating, not many houses had central heating then.
And a nice big bathroom.
AA: So who was within this group? Alec Ward - ?
SB: Pardon?
AA: Who was within this group? Who went away from eh, Finchley Road? Who was it? Alec Ward - ?
SB: Alec Ward and Witold Gutt and myself, we moved together.
Kurt left a bit earlier.
And he had a lodging somewhere else, I can't remember where, Belsize Park or something.
AA: And eh, so first of all, you were in Wintershill Hall.
How long were you in Wintershill Hall then?
SB: I can't tell you. Not too long. Eh..
I think, maybe a couple of months, at the most.
AA: And then -
SB: Finchley Road. And from Finchley Road I moved to this place and from this place to, to another place.
I - three, four places, we moved between 1945 and eh, 1950.
AA: And was it good to be among other survivors? Was it good to be with Kurt and -
SB: Oh, we made friends with local people, you know, we lived with people.
In some places, very nice people, you know.
They were paid, the people were paid by the committee.
AA: And what kind of education did you get there?
SB: Well, this varied, like Kurt and Witek went to school to take matriculation.
Kurt had at first a little job at the photographer.
I went straight to college, to art college and I was living in the hostel.
And then, I was out of the hostel, still at art college.
And Witek was living with (???), he was going to a different school. Different from Kurt.
AA: And at the beginning, you got general education? You learned English and math..?
SB: No, general education is what I brought from Poland, not much.
AA: And then you got a job after art school, you got a job?
SB: That's right, I got a job and eh.. In an advertising agency.
And I worked for this company for 25 years.
The last few years, I was a director of the company.
AA: And how important was work for you?
SB: Very. I lived for it.
I particular, I liked type, I was a typographer too, a very good typographer..
I told you that eh, this summer, when was it, probably in August, I had an invitation from my managing director and I had lunch with him and the chief copywriter.
And he write, wrote in a book "To Benny, he made a tremendous contribution to CBVS, head of studio".
He wrote down, after 38 years later.
AA: But you deserve it.
SB: I told him, my best time was the last few years.
I worked in a small, in a small company, all copywriters, we did not do advertising for newspapers.
Brochures and (???) for companies, mainly financial, it was very interesting and terribly nice people.
And I enjoyed it, every minute of it.
And I would show you a letter I have from the managing director from there.
AA: And when did you meet Charlotte?
SB: Oh, this, Charlotte I met in the 19-, I met her first in Wintershill Hall but I didn't even speak to her. Because she spoke Hungarian and German and English.