IV2: It's okay? - Okay, okay.
SB: The UNRRA was the first step to the rehabilitation.
IV2: Why?
SB: You, you came into a different - before them, we were (???).
We were no, we had no family, nobody to be responsible to.
You just run around wild, so to speak.
In UNRRA, you had a different atmosphere.
More homely, you know, you sat down to a meal.
And you talked.
You didn't talk loud, you behaved yourself better.
You learned again to use a knife and fork which we didn't receive in the camp, never mind, well knife, yes. Never ate with a knife and fork, there was nothing..
AA: And so this was a first step to civilisation.
SB: That's right. Complete, complete..
You know, you felt responsible and you had to keep quiet at certain times.
And, you know, it was really, I felt that's, that's one worry was going and another worry was coming, you see.
Then came the worry of the future.
It was an empty space, you didn't know what the future is going to bring.
If you had family, you, like Elek Rottenberg, he knew he had family in Canada, he wanted to take me over with him, we were very close friends.
So, you know, he knew roughly what his future is going but I have no where to go, no one to know, it was different, you know, it was a big worry.
AA: And was it important to you when you met Charlotte, then?
SB: Charlotte was in a similar situation, she had, she still had a step-mother alive in Hungary and three half-sisters.
They're probably still alive, not the step-mother.
But they, I was worried, what's the future going to bring.
I can't go back to Poland, there's nothing to go back for.
When I go to England, what will I do in England? I don't know the language or anything, what's going to happen?
So, to me, it was a big worry.
AA: And how old were you when you came to England?
SB: To where?
AA: How old were you when you came to England? You were supposed to be under 16.
SB: Oh yes, well, 20. '25-'45. I came to England in '45.
AA: So then you were 20. And you didn't have anybody in the world?
SB: That's right. No one to go to.
The whole thing was, you heard about Dr. Friedmann.
People took his advice always, he was in charge of us.
You know, he was advising people.
Then he called me, he said, "What are you going to do?" I said, "Ah, I don't know, you tell me."
He said, "What do you like to do?" I said, "(???)" "When you're at school, what was your best subject?" I said, "Drawing."
"Alright, well done, drawing."
Then he said, "Would you like to go to art college?" I said, "I would love it." And that's it.
That's how it started and I liked the art college, I could hardly speak English when I got there but you know, art college students... Soon make friends.
AA: And it was good that he asked you?
SB: Oh, of course. He was worried about every single person there. He was really involved.
AA: And in Wintershill Hall, you already met Charlotte?
SB: I saw her but I didn't know her, didn't speak a word to her.
She had a circle of friends there, you know.. The Hungarians were always..
AA: And then you saw her again?
SB: Then I met her at the concert in London.
And then, by chance, she also moved to Golders Green. She was living with another girl, also from the camp.
And when I was coming home, from college, she would lean out from the window and wave. And I wave back. So..
AA: And how important was family for you? And your relationship?
SB: Very important. Very important.
AA: And then you got a son and Nicholas was born, five years after - on the same day -
SB: On the same day as we were married. It was all planned.
AA: And eh, if you think of the values in bringing him up. What were the most important values in bringing Nicholas up?
SB: When Nicholas -
AA: When Nicholas was a child.
SB: Well, when he was.. Oviously it was education.
And Nicholas went to a local school and eh, he was doing very well on the local school.
He became headboy of the whole school, you know.
And we wanted to send him to a public school, near us. Haberdashers. Very well known public school.
We wanted to send Nicholas to a public school.
But the headmistress said, "Oh no, he will never make it. You know, you have to have exam, he will never make it. He is good but you try to, we will get him into a good grammar school."
But Charlotte was determined, so she asked Nicholas, "Would you sit the exam?"
He didn't have any preparation at all. He said yes.
We went along to the school - but it cost me a lot of money for this.
Because, if he sat before, when he left school immediately and he did well, he could get a, a grant.
You know, the government would pay for his schooling, like this I had to pay.
But he passed with glowing colors and he got in. And he was in public school, was a very good school, very good.
AA: And in your own home in Poland, was education as important as it was to you here?
SB: Frankly, not.
It was.. It was more important to get a good job, where you could earn money, rather than education.
AA: And eh, did you talk about your experiences in the camps with him?
SB: Yes. I was, I was talking when everybody else kept quiet.
I was always discussing with Charlotte or with friends who were in camps.. I was always - I talked it out of my system
I didn't keep it bottled up. Never.
AA: And was it hard for, for Nicholas to understand what you had gone through?
SB: No, I don't think so, I don't think it was hard.
There were several other boys, in this school, Witold's son was at this school, Roman Holter's son was at this school.
And another chap or another chap, all neighbours at this Haberdashers, you know.
About five of, of our boys, we called them, were at this school.
AA: And they all had survivors as parents?
SB: Yeah.
AA: So this was part of their everyday life?
SB: Yes. This was very important to me.
AA: And eh, but it was difficult for Charlotte to talk about what she had gone through?
SB: Pardon?
AA: What about Charlotte, did she also talk about what she had gone through?
SB: Yeah, not - well, Charlotte was all no less than a year in the camps.
And eh.. Her experience has been completely different, fortunately.
AA: And do you, do you think you are traumatised by the Holocaust? You are certainly traumatised?
SB: Yes, of course.
AA: And are there pictures that are coming back all the time?
SB: Yes. It does. I never forget.
Not for one minute of the day or the night. Doesn't leave me.
AA: And eh, but was it good to talk about it all the time?
SB: I talk about it. Not all the time.
AA: But often?
SB: People - most people don't like to hear it, you know. They don't like to hear it.
AA: And the other survivors you lived with, they wanted to hear it?
SB: Some do, some don't.
AA: And you were friends with Kurt Klappholz until he died, in 1999?
And you talked with him a lot?
SB: Oh yes, we talked.
Kurt always talked -
We talked about - he is an economist, you know, he was an economist that in the camp was a market, equal to the one outside the camp.
For instance, in Poland, in the first camps, Starochowice, the price of tobacco, if the price of tobacco went up, it was outside the camp as well.
The whole thing - he was amused by the thing, the way the market, you could buy so many cigarettes for a piece of bread or exchanges soup, for instance.
You know.. We always, he was always amazed.
AA: And he compared the two - to real life.
SB: Yes, he said, it operated a market, very similar.
Within the camp as outside the camp.
AA: And did you ever feel a need for a therapy that you needed a therapy for your - ?
SB: That I felt - sorry?
AA: That you needed a therapy for your trauma?
SB: No, no, never. I - as I said, I talked it out.
AA: And is there anything else that you wanted to tell me?
SB: Not really.
AA: There were a few things outside that you wanted to tell me and then I stopped you.
SB: No. If you, you ask question and I answer.
AA: Do you remember the building of Indersdorf? Do you remember the building - what it looked like, the building?
SB: The building - roughly.
AA: And did you play football there?
SB: Yes, I played in the football match, the ill-fated football match.
But I remember, the building in eh, Neunburg.
In Krankenstraße, you wrote to me, this building where Herr Otto Bauer lived.
I don't know - was Krankenstraße the actual road the hospital was in? Not..
Did you know, in Neunburg there was like a old, like a gate in, the town, an arch? An arch, did you see it?
AA: Yes, I saw the arch.
SB: Right, behind it, you know, going, coming from outside, there was the eh.. the townhall behind.
When you came through, you walked down, it was almost like going slightly down.
On the left-hand side, that's where the house of Otto Bauer was.. that this was called Krankenstraße, I don't know.
Because the hospital, I met Kurt and Eli was into..., like on a main road, seemed like a little bit out of town.
AA: And it was a school that was transformed into a hospital.
SB: Was it?
AA: Yes.
SB: I wouldn't know.
AA: Eric Hitter showed us.
SB: But, I remember the entrance to Otto Bauer's house was, like a little porch.
And there was a double door, it was shut, but if you open the door, there was a big box standing there with bars of soap, for the Americans.
AA: And have you already described your breeches and everything?
SB: Yes, I told the Gentleman..
AA: Okay, thank you.
AA: Was Indersdorf important?
SB: What was important?
AA: Was Indersdorf, had it some influence on your later life?
SB: Oh, whether Indersdorf was imporant? Very important.
AA: Why?
SB: Well, as I said, before this was the first stop towards civilisation, I said.
You learned to eat with a fork and knife, you learned to behave towards others.
That was Indersdorf.
You learned to care, people cared for you.
You had somebody to turn to, if you wanted to talk about something.
It was very important.
The second one of course was Wintershill Hall, when you came into direct contact, everyday contact with people who looked after us.
Were refugees from Germany. Young people.
And we felt very much on the same level, they were not much older than us.
Maybe a couple of years older. Volunteers.
AA: And they cared for you?
SB: Oh, yes.
AA: And later, Marion E. Hutton came to England and you saw her. Kurt an you saw Marion Hutton?
SB: Yes, I saw her at - Kurt had a house in Belsize Park and he phoned me up.
And I went along and also Jakob Kuczmerski, came along too, we met Miss Hutton.
But when Miss Fischer came, he phoned, I couldn't make it then.
He phoned me, again..
But there were not many of us here, who were in Wintershill Hall.
There were a number but dispersed over England, in different places.
AA: And did they expect eh, little children when you arrived here?
SB: Did they - ?
AA: When you arrived here, you were already 20 but they thought you were little children?
SB: They, they didn't think, it was just - we had these passports, like, we all had these passports, before we left, a little while, they called in all the passports and they changed the dates.
UNRRA, without telling us.
They told us that we have to be younger, they couldn't find any people.
The, the younger, a lot of them, were, went to Israel, family and America.
They had family and they were sent there.
And what was left, they couldn't find a thousand people, 710, they all only found.
So, they (???)
And then in 194-, 1953 when I was naturalised, the British, they sent along a detective from the Home Office to interview, to interview me.
And I told him, so they changed, changed it all back.
I'm sure they were aware..
AA: So now you've got your real birthday -
SB: Yes, yes, of course.
AA: And inbetween, you were called Benny, Benedikt?
SB: Oh.. At work, they called me Benny.
Because as someone was surname Edward, they called him Eddy.
Someone was Christian, so was called Chris. So I was called Benny.
AA: And what is the story behind Salek? Salek?
SB: Salek that's what my parents called me, everybody else.
It, it is funny, you see, in Jewish law, when a child is born, he's given a name.
Usually after his father, either the father side or the mother side or some relation.
And a Hebrew name, a Hebrew name because when you are 13, you become Bar Mitzvah, you are called to read the Tora.
And you become a man, you know.. And, so every boy had a Hebrew name.
And he's registered under his Hebrew name, but the parents call you something different. I was called Salek.
But the Hebrew name, I was registered under the Hebrew name, when I came to Auschwitz. And they registered us and he asked me, "What's you -", I remember it,
"What's your Hebrew name?" I said, "Isachara." So, he looked at me, said, "Israel, Israel." So it became Israel. So I'm Israel.
Oh, it is funny because eh..
When I changed my name back, officially, in my passport, it's Salek.
So, I forgot to notify the medical authorities.
So finished up, I was Salek everywhere but in the surgery, the doctor or the hospital, I was Israel. So I said, "Leave it that way, it doesn't bother me."
But then I went to hospital, they have to put up their name, above every patient.
And they were very worried because of the Muslim, you know, working there.
They were very worried, so they took down everybody's name.
AA: And so it wasn't -
SB: Because it was dangerous, it still is.
I went recently to the hospital, I was very ill recently, and eh..
Believe me, they put it again on the board "Benedikt Israel".
So I was laughing to myself, "What's going to happen now."
AA: And so it's better for you to just call yourself "Salek, Salek Benedikt"?
SB: No, that's not, I'm officially, I'm Salek Benedikt, it's on my passport.
But for the, my doctors said, "Do you want to change it? I'll change it right now." I said, "No, let it, don't bother me.."
AA: And Nicholas, is Nicholas named after anybody -
SB: Nicholas, Nicholas is his name, he is Nicholas Alexander. Alexander is Charlotte's father's name.
And Nicholas because she thought it's a nice name.
AA: And your family at home was not very religious. Were they very religious?
SB: Pardon? - No, no, my family was not..
My, my father, when he was a younger man, he started in a seminar to become a rabbi.
And eh, from there, straight from the seminar, you know, where he was studying theology, you know, he went into the Austrian army.
And came out, finished.
I was always wondering, why my father, when he came to see me in this little town, the first thing, he said, "I'm going to see the rabbi."
So, funny.. My father, seeing the rabbi.
He said, "You want to come with me?" I said, "Yes."
So I went, I waited in one room, my father went in.
Now it occurs to me, it must have been a friend of his from the year when he was studying to be a rabbi, you know, they are all rabbis, so he knew a lot of them.
It was a friend from school.
AA: And it was not because of religious reasons.
SB: No, no, nothing to do with religion, he was not, he was not religious.
We were not.. In town or even the restaurant, we had to keep kosher because the customers were the great majority Jewish, in a Jewish neighbourhood.
We had three different neighbourhoods, a Jewish neighbourhood, a Polish and the German.
AA: And then you had to keep kosher?
SB: Oh yeah, they kept together, you know, they all kept together.
AA: But it was not important, here in England, to you?
SB: Pardon?
AA: It was not important to you in England?
SB: In England?
AA: In England, religion was not important.
SB: Oh here, it's not important, here you can live anywhere, you know, not important. But there, it was. In Poland.
AA: Okay, thank you.
IV: Gut, jetzt würde ich gerne noch ein paar Fotos machen. Zwei oder drei.