IV:...about how you got caught up in the killing machinery of the Nazis.
LH: Well, yes.
IV: How it began, basically.
LH: It was really quite simple.
The transports began in 1941.
My brother lived at the time in Brünn...
I was born in Zwittau. That was part of Brünn at that time...in what was then Moravia.
And my father had to leave the Sudeten territory...by 1938 they had moved inside country and lived in Boskowitz.
That also belonged to Brünn.
And by October 1941 they were already in Theresienstadt.
And they were allowed to write twice a year and I received a correspondence card.
where my father wrote from Theresienstadt that he was healthy and that I shouldn't worry and...they weren't allowed to write anything else.
Otherwise the censor would not have let it pass.
But I saw that it was not my father's handwriting.
And the return address was "Sick room Hohenelber barracks"
And then I knew for sure that things were not okay because my father had [attended]...how was it called...Economic Academy and had a very nice handwriting for that time.
Many children then had not gone to school so he was very well educated for that time.
And when I saw this handwriting, I said: "That is written very poorly."
And one day I received a summons delivered by the Prague Religious Community and I said: "Yes, thank god."
My brother was already there with his family, maybe I can help my father too.
I was young.
Of course I imagined it there very differently.
Or I couldn't really imagine was was really going on there and...
And so we arrived in Theresienstadt.
For three days we were at the collection site in Prague, where the Parkhotel is today.
Yes, and when we arrived...were were not allowed...it was a huge cellar room.
Back then they called it "Schleuse".
But we had no idea, it was one of the first transports in April...'42.
And although it was forbidden, I went in front of the door and someone came by and I said: "Can you tell me where the "Hohenelber Barracks" are?
And he looked at me with surprise and said "You are in the Hohenelber Barracks".
So I said...I said: "I just arrived. I didn't know that. Thank you."
And there...the way barracks are in a square, right?
So I...then he added: "You have to ask there where the sick room ist."
And somehow I found my way there to the sick room and knocked.
And a nurse answered...and I introduced myself and she looked at me astonished and said:
"Yes, I have to give you the said news. Your father was deported on the transport early this morning."
He had a 42 degree fever and a severe pneumonia. He can't possibly survive a transport.
That was my welcome in Theresienstadt.
And since I didn't have a mother, we didn't have a mother...I still had a brother.
He was a dentist.
And I was simply...my world caved in.
And I went back to the "Schleuse".
And I had...there was nothing there, just concrete and I laid down on my rucksack.
They had taken the rest of our luggage away from us.
And I pulled my coat over my head and cried bitterly.
It was really so terrible because, as I said, my father was everything to me.
We had a very, very close, unusually close relationship wo our father, he was really fantastic and everything that I became, as a person, I got simply everything from my father, our father gave us everything.
And suddenly there was a huge ruckus in the room and I was lying under my coat with my rucksack under my head and I didn't move.
I wasn't interested in anything.
I was just...everything was gone.
And then, suddenly, it was very quiet.
And I heard this and was startled and crawled out from under the coat.
And a very small strip lay on my coat.
With my name and another number.
And this huge room, the cellar room, was basically empty.
In the other corner of the room... and the other end of the room there were maybe four or five people.
And I had a huge shock and stood up and walked over to the people and said: "Where is everybody?"
And they said: "We don't know. They were called out, pushed out."
And I didn't...they probably thought I was dead.
I hadn't moved and it was just a heap there. A ball.
Because my huge rucksack was...also under my head.
And I simply hadn't reacted and they just left me lying there.
And that saved my life.
So I went...
IV: You had the slip so to speak...
LH: And these four people who were there, like me, I asked them: "And why did you remain here?"
And they said: "Yes, we have our sons AK."
You know what that was: Set-up commando.
And these young people, who had allready come to Theresienstadt in 1941, they were promised that for preparing the arrival of so many people...with bunkbeds and everything.
And my brother was also there from Brünn.
And they had been promised and lied to as always that their parents wouldn't be sent after them.
A promise that they didn't keep of course.
When the ghetto was ready...they also sent these families there.
So much in Theresienstadt was "arranged" in that way.
The people who knew someone close to the file cards or on the committee...
The number always had to be right.
If they said, 1,000 people, 500 women, 500 men, then 1,000 people had to be there.
And that's how it happened, that at the last minute someone was reclaimed and then my father...an old man, deadly ill, they pulled him out of bed.
And so I never saw my father again.
And now I was very frightened because my brother already had his own family...he was married, had a 3 1/2 year old son with him
That means he couldn't protect me anymore.
He had to protect his family. Understandably.
And he didn't even know that I was already in Theresienstadt.
So then I just said, surrender to my fate.
Just have to wait and see what happens.
And then the door opened and a large slender man entered with a black cap with yellow stripes.
A little like the French police.
And, and he came over to me and said: "How did you get here?"
I didn't recognize him.
He was a vague acquaintance.
He worked with a boss, at a laundry business in Prague, a small laundry business.
And he was Hungarian and the Hungarians were known for corsets.
And he was a cutter there.
And my girlfriend worked there... for this family as a caretaker for the boys.
And the lady often invited me over to her employees.
And one time I went to the Fischers and she said: "What are you going to talk about with an old lady. I'll bring you a young man."
And she went into the workshop and brought with her this young man and offered him a tea and so.
And so I had met him twice briefly...but I didn't recognize him with this... {points to her head}
Then he said: "Yes, we" ...I said..."I didn't recognize you."
He said: "I am with the ghetto police and..."
And since it was April...the civilian population was still in Theresienstadt.
That means...we were not allowed to move around freely at all.
That's why there was the ghetto police.
Just doctors, artisans and the police were allowed to move around freely in Theresienstadt.
They didn't want us to have contact with the civilian population.
Only after they had been separated out, around late July, were we allowed onto the streets.
And he said: "And now, what are we going to do?"
I said: "I don't know either but..." and I told him briefly about my father...and he told me...
That the same train that brought us from Prague left with the next transport that my father was on.
And he said: "Can I help you in some way?"
And I said...I thought quickly and said: "Yes, you know how you could help me? My brother is in the Sudeten Barracks.
He works, he is allowed to work. He is a dentist.
If you could tell him that I am here and that..:"
He didn't know yet that our father was gone.
Only four hours had passed.
And he did that. He went away and returned with my...
Yes, and before he left he said: "You know, I am alone and I am AK. If you want I can put you on my file card."
I had know idea what that meant.
And I said: "You are very kind...go fetch my brother if you can."
And he left. After a while he came back with my brother.
I am explaining this in such detail because it was so important to my survival.
And then my brother arrived and he was very upset of course that father was gone, that he hadn't learned of it, had no idea.
And I said to him: "What should I do? He has offered me, he can take me on."
And my brother said: "Yes, that doesn't happen just like that. It has to be paid for with money, with gold, with cigarettes, {laughs} with Hungarian salami."
Of course I didn't have any of that.
"And moreover... you have to get married."
I had a dance class romance, that {laughs} was out of the question.
So I said: "Crazy, no." He said: yes, even if it is just a formality, otherwise it won't work."
I said: "No, I won't do it."
And then the two men spoke with each other.
To this day I don't know what they discussed because neither survived.
And he put me on his file card without us getting married.
He really did...I can say this as an old woman.
He never asked anything of me, nothing at all.
And then I was able to settle into Theresienstadt .
I began working with children and this allowed me to work for three-quarters of a year in Theresienstadt.
And then one day he came to me, about a year and a half later...
So it was just before I left too and so he came to me.
He often came by the children's home for a short visit.
And he said to me: "I brought a huge dowry with me and I didn't even get a kiss." {laughs}
And so...it was, when the ghetto police was dissolved, and the civilian population was gone, he became a cook in the Dresden Barracks.
We were in the Dresden Barracks, in the beginning with five children in a room.
And my colleagues said: "You should go get the food. You always get more."
Because he was at the...distribution and always gave a little more for the children.
But the children didn't always eat everything. In Theresienstadt we weren't hungry.
And one day he came to me...we had been relocated, had our own house, the L318.
A children's home was set up, that functioned already under Fredy Hirschstein {means Fredy Hirsch}.
And well...
So, like I said, I was there the whole time and there was a kind of routine...
And then he came by one day to visit and said: "I have a big favor to ask of you."
In Theresienstadt everyone used the familiar "Du", that was normal.
Only I couldn't say "Du" to older people.
That is true still today.
And he said: "I have a big favor to ask. I just want to say it so you know.
I met a girl, her name is Clara and we like each other very much and I can't have two women on my file card {laughs].
So just that you know...I am going to take you off."
I hadn't thought about that in a long time. It had been a year-and-a-half or more.
And I said: "yes, of course" and thanked him.
And then he left and went back to the kitchen.
He was the boss in the kitchen in the Dresden Barracks.
And then someone stole a carton with five kilos of margarine.
And since he was in charge he was put on a penal transport with this girl on his file card.
If I had been on it, I would have been sent away.
He didn't survive, of course, like I said, it was a penal transport.
And then in December '43...we were sent to Auschwitz.
We were there until June, early July they made an appeal.
That means I survived that September transport that was sent to the gas chambers in March.
And it was actually our turn.
Only they needed workers then and they made an appeal to women up to forty years old without children to register.
And those who had children could leave them in Auschwitz.
And the women who stayed there would look after the children.
And we knew then...that that wasn't...
IV: ..true.
LH:...not the truth, right? And as far as I know only one woman signed up who left her child in Auschwitz.
And then we were in quarantine for three days in a different camp, we were in Birkenau...B2B.
In the family camp, that means our heads were not shaved.
At the time Fredy Hirsch had gotten a block from the SS again.
He was from Aachen. You probably know this.
He was a fantastic young man who looked after the small children and teenagers the whole time.
And he had this German way...I don't know if it was because of this but he never showed that he was scared of the SS and he was able to get a lot out of them them, negotiate with them.
And so he was able to get a children's block in Auschwitz where the children had it much much easier.
When one sees it, it doesn't seem like much but it was a lot.
For example he arranged it that the children didn't have to stand outside for hours for roll call.
Instead when the SS came to do their count, we lined up the children in the block.
And in five minutes they had been counted and could continue playing or singing or I don't remember what we did with them then.
That was a huge advantage for the children, but also for us, not to have to stand outside in the sun and in the frost.
They got a better soup.
It is hard to explain because sadly, all the children were sent to the gas chambers too.
And still, beforehand they had been given a small advantage.
And for me, still today for me...I can't see the logic in it.
And a few small...especially that the children were not with their mothers in the huge blocks
where the old, sick and dying people who did not smell good anymore...who were no longer interested in life, who had simply...given up.
They knew...and I think that was very important...
I know a few...I am the oldest now {laughs}.
And they still remember that the children were really with children and that we did everything in our power, which we were not really aware of at the time.
That we gave the children so much.
And that because of that they didn't have to see the huge misery, didn't have to carry that with them in life.
And those who survived, those who were 12-14 years old.
They remember it very well.
Some even had nice memories of the youth home because a lot of young people went there and performed or recited something and ...
And now, many years later, we too know that we actually achieved nearly the impossible.
Because we didn't have any material -- that shouldn't be overlooked.
And keeping the children occupied the whole day without anything.
Without a pencil or a sheet of paper or anything.
I don't know how we...we had to just think up things.
IV: And you were in this children's block because before you had worked...
LH: I...
IV: ...in the children's home in Theresienstadt?
LH: Yes, but I had the training, you see, that is why Fredy Hirsch...me so very much with both hands...
We knew each other from Hagibor from Prague because we weren't allowed to go into any parks anymore with the children.
And they were in private families, but unfortunately many of them emigrated.
That meant I had to change my work place often.
I...wasn't allowed to work in the public sector anymore, I was at a Montessori School.
IV: Mhm.
LH: That meant I had my diploma and was basically the only one with professional training, because I was older than the others back then {laughs}.
They were all students.
And that is why I had the good fortune of being able to work with the children.
And when this offer came, that we should sign up for work, I registered.
And was selected by Mr. Mengele...I don't like to say Dr. Mengele because I don't think he deserves the title.
and for three days was put in... how is it called...isolation.
IV: Quarantine.
LH: Right, in a quarantine and then we were put on a train and of course had no idea where we were going.
And the train stood still for a long time and someone looked through the crack and said:
"Oh, we might be in Hamburg or near Hamburg. Here is so much water."
And then it started again after...we didn't have any watches or anything, we had to go by the sun and...
We moved on and then at some point the train stopped and we were pushed out.
And we were in the middle of the woods on a false track.
And were pushed through the woods and came to a concealed camp and were in Christianstadt.
We didn't know that though, we had no idea where we were.
And the next day the SS women divided us into groups.
And sent us to work and there were different work groups that worked in construction, in the quarry, in the woods, in the munitions factory. I was in the munitions factory.
And we were there for half a year and the camp was suddenly closed down in January.
We had to clear out the camp and bring the things from the camp to the train station.
And we said: "Oh, something is going on."
And later we even heard the canons, but we women couldn't tell how far away the front was from...how advanced it was.
We heard the noise, but didn't know if it was 100 or 200 kilometers away, how far one can hear.
And then we were called up, "line up and go."
The camp in Christianstadt was evacuated and we started off on the death march.
And we went the whole way from there up to, close to Dresden.
We were not...the Germans didn't even want to let us into a barn.
We always slept in some barn somewhere.
IV: {clears throat}
LH:...or on a hayloft.
And many ran away, including us.
And three times the S...the Hitler Youth caught us but that actually saved our lives because it caused us to be 14 days late.
That is why I was on the list with lots of Hungarian and Polish women because they always waited for other death marches to arrive and then they lined us up there.
And that is how we came to Flossenbürg.
And I don't remember how long were were here.
We were so exhausted and starving and, and death...we didn't know know at all who we were because you are just a machine by then.
Always just: "Go, go, go" and "move it" and...
I have forgotten to mention something rather important, how we came from Theresienstadt to Auschwitz and were pulled out of the train car and floodlights and dogs and, and the usual.
And there were Poles in striped suits and they just took us...I was pretty young and just jumped down.
And I did so {shrugs shoulders] to him. "What's going on?"
He answered like this {draws a line along her throat with the side of her hand},
I thought he was dumb.
Later I understood.
This single gesture.
That was the welcome in Auschwitz but then we didn't even know that we were in Auschwitz.
IV: Mhm, despite the time in Theresienstadt, you still had no idea what might be awaiting...
LH: No.
IV: ..you.
LH: That is so unlikely and incomprehensible, but before I got to Auschwitz in December 1943, no one...they always just said: "to the east."
Really no one in Theresienstadt knew where it was going or that the gas chambers existed.
And we went into the showers without...without any idea.
We only had the slight sense that something somewhere was happening.
Because when we were in Theresienstadt, one day five or six children arrived.
Incredibly neglected, dirty, starving, infested with lice, terrible.
And they were sent right to the disinfection and showered and everything had to be burned.
And they didn't want to go to the showers.
They were screaming: "gas gas gas gas!"
And nobody knew why.
Later we understood.
They must have been somewhere in Poland and were probably already without their parents and so when they had to be cleaned and showered in Theresienstadt, they resisted and screamed.
But they were monitored so that no one came into contact with the children and they were sent away again.
They were only in Theresienstadt for two or three days and heavily guarded and given new clothes and cleaned and deloused and were sent away again.
And how we just went innocently to the showers.
Only later did we realize that..bit by bit from the showers everything was taken away from us,
And the number tatooed right way, the women did that.
IV: Mhm.
LH: And then, like I said, after the death march we ended up here in Flossenbürg.
IV: And did you...
LH: And I don't know, I requested that someone look into it.
Because, as I said, we were so exhausted, that I don't know...
I had the sense that we were here for three days but evidently we were here for twelve or fourteen days.
I don't know anymore.
We were so happy that we...for the first time in weeks we were given something warm to eat.
The bowls, I can see them like it was today, the white bowls.
For a long time we had only those dirty bowls.
That we couldn't wash, everywhere was cold water.
Yes, and, and we went from here to ...when we arrived, there was an old man, Volksturm, from Swabia.
And I heard that in Flossenbürg when they asked how many we were...
He just scratched his head and said "I used to have 500".
And there were many...who got left behind on the side of the road, many fled.
And those who fled alone, most of them made it.
But we were this group, who had been with the children, we didn't want to separate.
We four women simply wanted..they were sisters plus another woman, who now lives in England.
And we simply wanted...we were together the entire time and simply wanted to help each other and not leave each other.
And we, all four, survived, as I said, with interruptions, because the Hitler Youth repeatedly held us.
But we had...I think it was in Weisswasser, I don't remember exactly, perhaps you know it better.
There was a glass factory there, they made cylinders for petroleum lamps, glass...glass cylinders.
And there was a man who saw us flee and hide.
We stayed behind a...at the edge of a forest and...
He spoke to us and said: "So, what to do." We told him that we had fled...and he said: "Girls, girls come quickly, quckly. So that no one sees us!"
And he brought us to this...I don't know if he was a night watchman or porter, but he had access into the area.
He put us in the washroom, which was the most sensible thing he could do.
He filled a wash kettle with water, put fire under it, it was one of those laundry rooms, they didn't have washing machines back then.
And he said: "So now I am going to leave and when I return...
And he brought us towels and said: "Girls, wash yourselves."
It had been weeks since we had been able to wash ourselves.
And now even with warm water, so...
And then he returned with two women carrying a huge stew pan on a rod.
And through the, the, the...
IV: Grip..
LH: A stick through the handles and that is how they brought this huge pot of potato soup.
I'll never forget it...What this man took upon himself to do.
And then he let us sleep overnight in the storage room.
We were able to wash ourselves, were given something to eat and early in the morning he came and said...
And back then it was still wood shavings.
And these cylinders were packed in wood shavings and there were these slats, they weren't really crates, just slats...and the wood shavings came out everywhere.
And he said: "Yes, go climb up there so that if something happens, then you are up there and stay very quiet."
And I kept moving like this [jumps lightly with her upper body] and was so happy to hear the cylinders cracking underneath {laughs}.
They were for export, right?
And it cracked and I said: "Oh that is good! They will send this away and everything will arrive totally broken...{laughs}"
That was a kind of resistance, you know?
IV: Sabotage.
LH: Yes.
But I should add.
After the war I never really...
I don't have to say it...I don't feel any hate, any desire for revenge.
That just isn't my... I can't do anything more today, even right after the liberation I couldn't do anything.
I am somehow grateful that I, albeit badly at the end...we were sent to Bergen-Belsen.
That was the next extermination camp. And there...
Yes, I haven't told that.
How the train stood still for so long and then started to move and we came to the disguised camp.
And that is when we realized that half the train had been unhitched.
And we were not all there.
And as we came to Bergen-Belsen.