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IV: Ok, so as I told you, we would like to do ah, an interview, emm.

2
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We, I would like to ask you about your biography, about, ah… your, emm, time in the camps.

3
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And we would like to record that for our permanent exhibition.

4
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So, obviously the first question is: Can you tell me a little bit about your familiar background?

5
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Where you come from, what your family was like?

6
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DA: I see. Well, I come from Poland.

7
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I was born in Warsaw, August 1927.

8
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Actually they have my birthday in the archives here two days wrong.

9
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I was born August 13, 27, and Flossenbürg, they have me August 15.

10
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But when I came in, I was not going to argue with a German about two days or three days.

11
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Whatever he wanted, he understood 15, I said 13, I was not going to correct.

12
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So, but, I’m 13 of August, not the 15.

13
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Not important.

14
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Yeah, I came here.

15
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I was prisoner number 14088, which I remember: “Vierzehn null achtundachtzig”.

16
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My good friend Jack Terry was “Vierzehn null sechsundachtzig”. And, emm...

17
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Well, I came here from, from, a, ah… concentration camp in Poland.

18
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Wieliczka, before Budzyń, and there was a Budzyń 1 and Budzyń 2.

19
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If I remember correctly, and I have spoken with former inmate, inmates from Budzyń.

20
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And they couldn’t differentiate from Budzyń 1 and Budzyń 2, because the quality of life was the same, one, two or anything else.

21
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But in Budzyń 1, was called an "Arbeitslager".

22
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Then a year later it became Konzentrationslager, and this is where they, where I became a marked men, "KL", Konzentrationslager.

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In Budzyń...

24
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You know… I don’t like to repeat myself of the atrocities, of the inhuman qualities.

25
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I call, don’t call it existence, I call it of nonexistence.

26
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But in Budzyń, it is very important to me why I survived, well, to anyone who survived it’s very important.

27
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And the reason for my being here, for being alive, is because of my music, because of my violin.

28
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In Budzyń was a strictly Jewish camp, not like Flossenbürg, there were mixed religions and nationalities.

29
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In Budzyń, the Nazi commandant, they had several, two or three Polish, Polish Jewish prisoners of war.

30
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They were captured being in the fields as the war, soldiers.

31
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And one man, one Jewish Polish. I have to say Jewish Polish, because there’s this…

32
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You cannot be a Jew and a Pole and I’ll explain to you why.

33
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Because being, at that time, I don’t know whether things have changed, if you were a Jew born in Poland.

34
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I was a Jew born in Warsaw, my father was born in Warsaw, one of my grandparents' fathers was born in Warsaw.

35
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But if you had a passport, the passport read “Citizen”.

36
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For me, for instance, I don’t know how life is today but at that time it would have been “David Arben, citizen of Poland, nationality – Jewish”.

37
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This was a way of life, so you were a marked man.

38
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I was a marked, my family was marked, from the day they were born.

39
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You don’t see this in other countries, of course in the United States, forget about it.

40
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You’re, you come to America today.

41
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You have a mother or father who was born, you’re automatically a citizen, you come, you’re born in the United States from a Mexican mother, you’re an American.

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IV: So what happened in Budzyń?

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DA: In Budzyń the Nazi commandant picked the Jewish, the p… I have to emphasize, the Polish Jewish prisoner.

44
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And appointed him to be the commandant of the Jewish camp and report to the Nazi commandant every day, whatever.

45
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And his name, I cannot forget, was Stockmann.

46
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My father, my mother, since I play the violin at seven and a half, they thought they had a son, a child, a genius, what do I know.

47
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And they always said, “Oh, he’s a violin virtuoso, violin virtuoso, virtuoso..”

48
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So when I came to Budzyń, and I saw there’s a Jewish commandant in his Polish officer’s uniform I ran to him.

49
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Right away we knew this is Commandant, he was called Commandant Stockmann.

50
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I said “I’m a violin Virtuoso”, I was… at that time I was 14.

51
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He looked at me, was tall, handsome man.

52
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And he says “What do you play on your violin?”, so I said “this, this, this, this…”.

53
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“Where did you study?” - “So, so, this..”.

54
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My fortune was that he knew music, he loved music, he knew the professors, he heard about the... the... I studied with.

55
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And he says “You go now to company number 27”.

56
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So in the camp, you look... and tell the Kapo, who was a Jewish Kapo, with a whip, that I have sent you.

57
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I go to company 27, I see there about 15 people, all Jews of course, beautifully shaven, beautifully dressed.

58
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They are clean, they wore shoes, I thought “Who are these people?”

59
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And I say to this Kapo, I said "commandant Stockmann told me to come here"

60
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And the Jewish Kapo says “Get away from here, otherwise…”

61
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25, minimum, always you heard, 25, 25 Peitschen.

62
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But then, two minutes later, the Jewish commandant Stockmann -

63
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The reason I referred “the Jewish commandant” is not to make the mistake, or to give the impression, that is another commandant.

64
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Says “you take this boy”.

65
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So I was all..  with paper, Strohsack, my body, my feet, filthy.

66
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These people were shaved, clean, beautiful clothes, beautiful everything.

67
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So the next day the assistant of Stockmann came in early in the morning to my barrack.

68
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He says “You come with me”.

69
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He took me to a shower place to clean up, then he took me to the warehouse.

70
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He says “Whatever you see, from all the dead people that left their shoes, their clothing, everything, you pick what you want”.

71
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And suddenly, I looked like a human being.

72
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And everybody, everybody in the camp was convinced, knew, they said I was a nephew of Stockmann.

73
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I was not a nephew.

74
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And in order to make life easier for me, he assigned me to the kitchen, to the camp kitchen.

75
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Because his good friend was in the concentration camp and he was the chef.

76
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To be the chef of a kitchen in the concentration camp is like, I always said is like being Henry Kissinger, secretary of states of the United States.

77
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I mean this is... next to the president.

78
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So, I had to peel frozen potatoes.

79
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And after peeling for five, six days my fingers, my hands swell up.

80
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And I was always thinking about a violin, not about life…

81
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My life was the violin, so if I don’t have my fingers, if I do this.. I don’t have my life.

82
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My life was the violin, still is.

83
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So I went to Stockmann, the Jewish commandant.

84
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I said “Look at my fingers, they’re frozen… frozen potatoes, difficult to peel...”

85
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And he says “You come with me”.

86
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He took me to the chef and he says “Let him warm up his hands by the oven, only when there is an inspection, SS inspection…”

87
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We knew, we knew when SS was coming in to look.

88
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“Then you make him peel the potatoes”.

89
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So life was very good for me.

90
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Because you can have a frozen potato, bake it…

91
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And this, and then two days later I am called to commandant Stockmann.

92
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Polish Jewish commandant Stockmann, to his office, he had an office in the camp.

93
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And there is a violin and a bow, violin bow.

94
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He says, and I’m clean, I’m well dressed, I have some food in my stomach.

95
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I’m a rich person in a, in a terrible concentration camp.

96
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And he says “Play”, and I haven’t played for a while, and I started playing...

97
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It was awful. It was terrible.

98
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And I see the intensity of the commandant Stockmann, he looked at me.

99
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But I realized, what I understood and what I heard he tried to do.

100
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He was an extremely intelligent man, and the Nazi commandant had respect for him.

101
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And Stockmann tried to save as many Jews who could, after the war, that something -

102
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He tried to save some physicians, some professors, me if I have a talent you have to save.

103
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Because all the intelligencia from Warsaw, the first to go, the first to be killed, killed by the Nazis,

104
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were the educated Jews, the Jews who had some intelligence.

105
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Those who didn’t even education, they were poor, nothing, the could live a little longer, they were not a threat to any regime.

106
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So I said “Mr. Commandant, I need a little time”, and he says “Take all the time you want to… play”.

107
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After three, four hours, and I went... he made a room, and I warmed up and I started making, and he was happy.

108
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He was such an important man with the Nazis that he didn’t live in the camp itself.

109
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And emm… Jack Terry knows who I’m talking about, you know, he has... Stockmann.

110
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He was allowed to live outside the camp in a specially build bungalow for him.

111
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And the Nazis told him, “Look, you want to have a woman?”

112
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Because it was strictly a men’s camp.

113
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“We’ll take you to a women’s concentration camp, you pick any woman you want to and she can come and live with you”.

114
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So he went and this... Regina, maybe she was 21 or 22, one of the most beautiful -

115
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I didn’t know, at 14 what is means beautiful this, beautiful that.

116
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To me beautiful was if you had a piece of bread, that was beautiful.

117
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And my job was, that an SS would come. And well, we had to be in the barracks by 8 o’clock.

118
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But at 10 o’clock, an SS man with a rifle would come in, get my number, not my name, no name..

119
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I have to go with him, he would take me to Stockmann, outside the camp.

120
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And there was Stockmann having dinner with his beautiful lady, young lady.

121
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And I didn’t believe my eyes. Wonderful food, red wines, nice glasses, I mea…

122
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This, this, this is a time from the past, this is a time that doesn’t exist to me.

123
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My.. my world, I didn’t think it exist anywhere.

124
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Then I would get some food, the SS was not in the bungalow, which Stockmann would call for the SS.

125
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Because if I would go by myself I would be shot from above, you know, from the corners.

126
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Because he had a spotlights, and he… you get out of the barracks you were dead.

127
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So the SS accompanied me back to the barrack.

128
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And this continued for some time, and I was the luckiest prisoner in any concentration camp at that time.

129
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Then, one day, 6:30, quarter to 7 maybe. Can’t tell you the exact time, I didn’t have Rolex those days.

130
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The SS, the Obersturmführer, Untersturmführer, they came in on motorcycles, the whole bunch.

131
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And the whole camp, the camp was at that time 6,000 Jews, everybody had to go to an inspection.

132
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You must have, I’m sure you’re… are quite... right and left and right and left, right, left, right, left, after a while…

133
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I see it’s bad news, I was told to go to the left.

134
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I see young kids, I see some old people, I see sick people.

135
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I said, then we knew, we knew by, if we didn’t know… is be… we didn’t want to know what is expected for, for our… so I see it’s not good.

136
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The result was, there were a 105 people, young, old, sick.

137
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I was one of them.

138
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We were marched out to the woods and there was a big grave, dug and ready.

139
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We were told.. to form a line of three, in front of the grave, one two three, one two three, one two three.

140
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:06,032
Whatever we had to take off neatly, if you had shoes, to tie your shoe laces, everything.

141
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“Ordnung muss sein, muss herrschen…”

142
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So, it is interesting, of course, I will never forget.

143
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When you have a hail of bullets or a hail of dangerous thing, human nature is something that you don’t think that you’re going to get it. It..

144
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The guy next to you, the person to your left, to your right, who will be hit by this bullet.

145
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But there comes a moment, I hope it never comes to any human being, anyone.

146
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A moment in life like that moment, in front of the grave, where I realized that the next bullet is for me, nobody else.

147
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In the meantime, there was a firing squad of about ten to twelve Ukrainians who joined the Nazis.

148
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Like this, from a little distance, once it’s undressed, all we have to, all they have to do is, a machine gun.

149
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We fall into the grave, and then there’s some strong people, Jews from the camp, who are going to bury us.

150
00:18:17,333 --> 00:18:22,999
And when you bury these people, maybe a quarter, maybe more, maybe less, are not dead.

151
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,999
Because not every bullet kills you, you still have a mind, you’re buried alive.

152
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:36,332
My luck, Stockmann, the Jewish commandant sees me.

153
00:18:36,333 --> 00:18:41,232
He grabs me, you know, with this intensity, he grabs me.

154
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To the Obersturmführer, he says to the Obersturm… “Das ist ein violin virtuoso, wir brauchen ihn… jetzt weg”

155
00:18:49,500 --> 00:19:03,866
But.. when I stand, stood in front of the grave, and I knew that the next bullet, that I never thought was for me, is for me.

156
00:19:03,867 --> 00:19:18,766
So anything that happened in your lifetime since one year, one and a half year, in a split second, it goes through like this, quicker than, than, than, than a lightning.

157
00:19:18,767 --> 00:19:24,166
And after that I was dead.

158
00:19:24,167 --> 00:19:30,999
You could come, you could cut off an arm, you cut off a leg, I would not feel, I wouldn’t feel, I wouldn’t know nothing.

159
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So when the Obersturmführer said to Stockmann “Weg!” instead of going towards the entrance back to the camp and to the kitchen, I was dead.

160
00:19:42,567 --> 00:19:46,566
And I made a U-turn, do you know what a U-turn is?

161
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I walk and walk and walk and walk and I came back to be killed.

162
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And I happened to, to step on Stockmann without knowing, because I didn’t see anymore.

163
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I, I, I was not aware, my brain was dead.

164
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And Stockmann, I will nev…, picked me up by the left ear, he said "Get out".

165
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And I woke up, sort of, little, walk back to the camp, walked into the kitchen, sat down, no life to me.

166
00:20:23,967 --> 00:20:31,766
About 50 minutes later I looked down.

167
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I had no feelings, my whole body is full of diarrhea.

168
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But I didn’t know, I didn’t feel, I, I see... running, running, whatever I had.

169
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Five minutes later, Stockmann comes to the kitchen with one eye full of blood.

170
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Stockmann wanted to save, was a Jewish doctor.

171
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Stockmann, was a, a... unbelievable.

172
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:19,599
You could not go to the camps, ah, whatever you will call it, to get health benefits, to get medication.

173
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Because you’re, you have a problem, you know, you were marked, you die.

174
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I was working at one time in the infected quarters and I had sores for four years, my feet were swollen, for four years.

175
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Both of them. And big holes of infections.

176
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Infections cannot heal without antibiotics.

177
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Or, if I would have a little cut on the finger, it cannot heal, because the body does not have any fat.

178
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It is fat that closes up the wound.

179
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No fat, so it stays for a week, for two weeks, for two months.

180
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Then dirt comes in, it becomes infected and it swells, this is the process.

181
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So what happened, he came in with this bloody eye, because the Obersturmführer had the whip, and I saw that whip.

182
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At the end of the whip.. was fine steel hair, a bunch, when you go like this he takes everything.

183
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You know, it’s not just the with leather whip or.. steel.

184
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And when he hits you, and he says “Du verfluchte Jude, du willst alle Juden retten!”

185
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He wanted to save a doctor, physician, who was maybe close to 70 years old, because Stockmann would come into barracks to see who’s sick.

186
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And Stockmann was very smart, very intelligent, and he knew how to negotiate with the Nazis to get medications, to do.

187
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Everybody gave him money, people that came, say you have money, he would give money to this, money to this.

188
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You know, to different Germans that worked there, he got.

189
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And the doctor would come and Stockmann would bring him in the barracks, and see how sick, what can do...

190
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He wanted to help, help, help, help. So.

191
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And I will never forget, I’m sitting there in my own.. garbage, and Stockmann talks with his friend the chef, the kitchen chef.

192
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This is the most important man besides the commandant, he says, points,

193
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he says "You see this eye? This will be alright. You see this kid? Would never been alright".

194
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:08,699
In other words, he tried to save somebody else, because I was the first one, and maybe he couldn’t negotiate with the Obersturmführer...

195
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,732
The second one you see it, he has a, he has an agenda of sorts, he wants to save.

196
00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:20,832
Didn't work. So.. two days later I’m called again.

197
00:24:20,833 --> 00:24:29,966
The Nazi would come in, 10 o’clock, 9:45, whatever the time, could have been 9 o’clock, I don’t know time.

198
00:24:29,967 --> 00:24:38,966
Take me to play for Stockmann, this time I don’t, I didn’t see the girl.

199
00:24:38,967 --> 00:24:45,799
I have no i… you cannot, he, he… he was Jewish, you couldn’t talk to him like a Jew to a Jew.

200
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:51,866
He was commandant, he was power, and we were trained, you know, “Achtung, commandant”

201
00:24:51,867 --> 00:24:58,466
I played for him, we had some supper, didn’t say anything to me.

202
00:24:58,467 --> 00:25:08,899
The SS took me back to my barrack maybe half an hour, 40 minutes later, I got some food.

203
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:25,332
Then at 4:30 in the morning six, seven, eight, nine SS with German shepherds, a guy grabs me out from my whatever, puts a gun on my head.

204
00:25:25,333 --> 00:25:28,332
"Where is Stockmann, where is commandant Stockmann?"

205
00:25:28,333 --> 00:25:29,166
I don’t know.

206
00:25:29,167 --> 00:25:33,699
"You are the only one who saw him the last time, where is Stockmann?"

207
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:40,299
I didn’t know. The SS took me there, the SS took me back to my barrack.

208
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:45,666
He left a note.

209
00:25:45,667 --> 00:25:53,966
That he feels that he is not an adequate man to run this concentration camp.

210
00:25:53,967 --> 00:25:59,999
If a 104 people could be, innocent people, could be killed for nothing. Massacred.

211
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:06,866
Including the healthy one, who were shoveling the grave, they were shot there too.

212
00:26:06,867 --> 00:26:14,199
He said he cannot be a commandant for this camp and he vanished.

213
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,499
Where to, we didn't, I don’t know.

214
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:27,099
Maybe Jack Terry, we all remember little different things from the same period.

215
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:29,332
IV: You told me this…

216
00:26:29,333 --> 00:26:30,632
DA: I beg your pardon?

217
00:26:30,633 --> 00:26:41,799
IV: You told me this morning, or you told ah... ah… other people too, this morning that you also, ah.. played the… violin in Flossenbürg.

218
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,099
DA: Oh, this is, this I speak before I came here.

219
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:49,532
You see, all this happened before I came to Flossenbürg.

220
00:26:49,533 --> 00:26:54,832
When I came into Flossenbürg we had a heat wave.

221
00:26:54,833 --> 00:27:06,166
Jack told me, you know, I don’t re.. I remember something terrible, but everything was terrible, you know, this.

222
00:27:06,167 --> 00:27:09,199
IV: You had met Jack Terry before?

223
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:18,966
DA: He was... Yes. Jack Terry and I, for the last three years before the end of the war, we were the same camps together.

224
00:27:18,967 --> 00:27:29,932
And he was 18, eh, 14086, I was 14088, he was two… came the same transport to Flossenbürg.

225
00:27:29,933 --> 00:27:39,399
And I cannot tell you for sure whether it was the first Sunday or the second Sunday.

226
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,366
But one weekend, Sunday, we had free in Flossenbürg.

227
00:27:43,367 --> 00:27:49,266
Then I hear music and I run, and there was like a chamber orchestra.

228
00:27:49,267 --> 00:28:03,399
And you know right away identify yourself, in Flossenbürg we had a triangle star with a "P", and, and if you’re a Jew you had a yellow stripe underneath.

229
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,799
If you’re not a Jew you have red.

230
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:13,399
And I had this "P" – Poland, Polish, yellow meaning Jewish.

231
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:24,232
And a wonderful musicians. And I see "C", Czech Republic, that time it was Czechoslovakia, whatever, Czech Republic.

232
00:28:24,233 --> 00:28:30,666
And I remember it like it would be now, there was one Tenor, was beautiful, and they all played beautifully.

233
00:28:30,667 --> 00:28:33,832
Then I thought there is hope for me.

234
00:28:33,833 --> 00:28:39,932
Because the conductor, as I told you before, was a German.

235
00:28:39,933 --> 00:28:48,166
There were two kinds of Germans – non Jews who were imprisoned in different concentration camps

236
00:28:48,167 --> 00:28:53,532
like in Buchenwald, ah… like in Dachau or in Auschwitz.

237
00:28:53,533 --> 00:28:57,266
They were politically, was red.

238
00:28:57,267 --> 00:29:01,566
If you were a criminal, you did something terrible, was green.

239
00:29:01,567 --> 00:29:05,499
And of course this is your passport, this was your ID.

240
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:14,132
I look at this conductor, tall man, nice man, with eh… with red, oh, this is good, because he’s anti-Nazi.

241
00:29:14,133 --> 00:29:17,232
He will understand, he will let me play.

242
00:29:17,233 --> 00:29:20,766
So, after the concert’s finished I go up to the conductor.

243
00:29:20,767 --> 00:29:27,266
I tell him, “I’m a violinist, bla bla bla. I would like to play, if possible, in your orchestra”

244
00:29:27,267 --> 00:29:31,932
He says to me, “I don’t have any Jews in my orchestra”

245
00:29:31,933 --> 00:29:35,866
Was another shock to me.

246
00:29:35,867 --> 00:29:45,199
Here, he is, he is a prisoner, he has the red thing, which is anti the regime, he did something that put him in prison.

247
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:49,066
And he’s anti-Jewish, nothing changes.

248
00:29:49,067 --> 00:29:55,466
So maybe a few days later, a week later, on a Sunday.

249
00:29:55,467 --> 00:30:05,132
I was insane, because music was my life.

250
00:30:05,133 --> 00:30:14,399
This is what I thought. I was young enough not to know better, maybe you grow you say, what? Music, this?

251
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,766
There’s… there are other ways in life.

252
00:30:16,767 --> 00:30:19,966
Yeah, it’s a little thing flying around.

253
00:30:19,967 --> 00:30:25,566
So this commandant here, Feix, not Feix, who was the commandant here?

254
00:30:25,567 --> 00:30:28,132
IV: Kögel.

255
00:30:28,133 --> 00:30:28,766
DA: Which comm..

256
00:30:28,767 --> 00:30:29,932
IV: Kögel.

257
00:30:29,933 --> 00:30:31,132
DA: In Flossenbürg.

258
00:30:31,133 --> 00:30:36,632
He used to come and, to Flossenbürg, to the camp, on occasions.

259
00:30:36,633 --> 00:30:41,732
Too often, once is too often, but often.

260
00:30:41,733 --> 00:30:47,032
And it used to be, ah, we used to observe, twilight, between day and evening.

261
00:30:47,033 --> 00:30:48,899
Was not dark, was not light.

262
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:54,299
He would have a revolver and he would shoot somebody, for nothing.

263
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:56,066
No provocation, nothing.

264
00:30:56,067 --> 00:30:58,432
It was like having a cocktail.

265
00:30:58,433 --> 00:31:04,299
And with so many people there’s always one.

266
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:10,999
And we all knew, when he comes in, we knew we run, but there’s always one who’s ready to be killed.

267
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:12,566
Not one to die, but.

268
00:31:12,567 --> 00:31:19,666
So one Sunday morning was a beautiful sunny day, maybe 11:30 or so.

269
00:31:19,667 --> 00:31:25,599
Noon time, I’m talking to two kids from my barrack outside.

270
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:33,699
The gate opens up and this commandant, the killer, comes in and I lost my mind. I run to the commandant.

271
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:41,599
I tell him, “Herr Kommandant, ich bin ein violin virtuoso”, pardon my expression.

272
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:52,999
“Und ich möchte gerne mit… mitwirken im orchestra, aber der Dirigent sagte er hat keine Juden, kein Jude kann.“

273
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,166
"Komm mit mir".

274
00:31:54,167 --> 00:31:57,899
The killer, I went to the killer for, for reasoning.

275
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:03,632
He took me to the conductor and he says: “He’s going to play in the orchestra”

276
00:32:03,633 --> 00:32:05,999
And I did play.

277
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:13,666
But the conductor gave me a difficult time, difficult time was I had to carry all the music, all the stands.

278
00:32:13,667 --> 00:32:15,299
I had to do this, I didn’t mind.

279
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:20,332
I didn’t mind, but I played, I don’t know how bad it was but I played a few times.

280
00:32:20,333 --> 00:32:22,232
IV: Can you remember what you played there?

281
00:32:22,233 --> 00:32:26,299
DA: No. Absolutely nothing… the playing was my life.

282
00:32:26,300 --> 00:32:28,799
What is it... I don’t remember what we played.

283
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,399
IV: Did you play for the other prisoners?

284
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,132
DA: No, I did never.

285
00:32:33,133 --> 00:32:40,799
Violin, because all the instruments that the Czech players played, you couldn’t practice on.

286
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:47,099
They were in the warehouse, they were locked up with the music, with the stands, with the instruments, everything.

287
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:55,166
Only you got it together, they... Because you couldn’t take an instrument to a barrack, nobody would permit.

288
00:32:55,167 --> 00:33:04,899
So my two friends said, they would ran to the commandant, we just lost him, they didn’t know what happened, he lost his mind.

289
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:08,232
I wasn’t killed.

290
00:33:08,233 --> 00:33:13,599
So over time I got to know many people in different places.

291
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,532
And sometimes I would be invited to doctors, to psychiatrist homes for dinner and so on, so.

292
00:33:18,533 --> 00:33:23,999
And I’ve known a professor psychiatrist, the university of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.

293
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:31,266
So, I’ve known for years, and I would come, always, new years’ day, always dinner, for years.

294
00:33:31,267 --> 00:33:36,966
And after that we sat on the couch, I said “You know I meant to ask you a long time ago”

295
00:33:36,967 --> 00:33:41,866
I told him this incident, this killer that I complained

296
00:33:41,867 --> 00:33:45,866
“I want to play the violin but he doesn’t let me because I’m a Jew.”

297
00:33:45,867 --> 00:33:53,799
I mean, this man killed… So this psychiatrist says: “I can tell you one thing. You were not an actor.

298
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,899
Because if you would be an actor you would have been dead right on the spot.

299
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:02,832
I cannot tell to you exactly why and what, we have to analyze for months.

300
00:34:02,833 --> 00:34:10,699
But what I see, you didn’t, you didn’t know what you were doing.”

301
00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:15,266
I said, “My friend, I still don’t know what I’m doing.”

302
00:34:15,267 --> 00:34:22,266
He said “You went to this killer and you elevated him.

303
00:34:22,267 --> 00:34:30,299
You gave him even more power than he had, he had the power to kill you, and he has more power than the conductor.”

304
00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:32,666
He can be a German but he is a prisoner.

305
00:34:32,667 --> 00:34:41,432
And it is the commandant who is the powerful man, who decides who lives and who dies.

306
00:34:41,433 --> 00:34:43,632
Because he is the final ward.

307
00:34:43,633 --> 00:34:52,632
So the conductor is, even though he’s German, he is not good enough to make a decision whether I play or don’t play.

308
00:34:52,633 --> 00:34:56,066
This is this psychological game in the brain, this is…

309
00:34:56,067 --> 00:35:02,499
So that was that episode that ended.

310
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:14,232
Now I remember, yeah, it happened here, it… maybe you, is... some things happened like in a twilight.

311
00:35:14,233 --> 00:35:24,766
For a short time I remember there was, there were some girls, prostitutes, brought in here, you have it on record?

312
00:35:24,767 --> 00:35:25,999
You know about it?

313
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:26,366
IV: Yes.

314
00:35:26,367 --> 00:35:28,299
DA: Then I know what I’m talking about here.

315
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:35,099
And I thought, me sex is…

316
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:39,666
Never thought about it, you know I come from a very conservative…

317
00:35:39,667 --> 00:35:45,099
very, you know, you don’t, you have sex, you marry, I was young, was a kid, you wait.

318
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:52,799
But I thought, you had to pay with some prisoners’ money, something.

319
00:35:52,800 --> 00:36:04,966
You had to sign up, so I signed up and I thought if I go to this women, she has sex with everybody, soldiers, and so, and SS, she must have some bread.

320
00:36:04,967 --> 00:36:13,832
Maybe I can get some bread, so my turn, I see guys, wai... everybody got 15 or 20 minutes, something.

321
00:36:13,833 --> 00:36:19,232
She looks at me, was emm... young woman.

322
00:36:19,233 --> 00:36:25,532
I don’t know where she was from or whether she was a prisoner, you know… women’s camp.

323
00:36:25,533 --> 00:36:31,299
She looks at me, she says “young boy… you want?”

324
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:37,066
I won’t be as vulgar, “You want to make love?” I said “oh no, no, no, no…”

325
00:36:37,067 --> 00:36:40,532
She says “You should be happy if you can pee.”

326
00:36:40,533 --> 00:36:43,399
I said “Yes, yes, I’m happy I can pee, yes”.

327
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,232
I said “I just came here… maybe if you give me some bread..”, so she gave me some bread.

328
00:36:48,233 --> 00:36:54,799
And I… this is smart, I’m so smart, I wouldn’t tell anybody, because I’m afraid.

329
00:36:54,800 --> 00:37:01,866
By the time I tried to, to line up again another time it was gone, things changed, you know.

330
00:37:01,867 --> 00:37:09,466
So ah… and then I worked for Messerschmitt.

331
00:37:09,467 --> 00:37:12,332
IV: What kind of work was there?

332
00:37:12,333 --> 00:37:19,466
DA: I, I did this… ah, identical work for wings, with… to get wings together, ahhh.

333
00:37:19,467 --> 00:37:24,532
There were aluminum things, the same thing Jack did.

334
00:37:24,533 --> 00:37:37,366
It was a long factory and if you could make, I don’t remember, a certain quota, you would get another soup for it.

335
00:37:37,367 --> 00:37:44,299
And I became very good at it, I would be making more than my quota, cause I wanted that soup.

336
00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:50,699
The soup was nothing, as Jack said, was… warm mud, which is better than no mud, warm mud.

337
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:57,899
So ah…

338
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:00,066
It was forever.

339
00:38:00,067 --> 00:38:16,332
Yesterday I asked Jack Terry, I said “You know, I don’t remember any sun in Flossenbürg.”

340
00:38:16,333 --> 00:38:23,366
I, I.. he said there were some days here, he remembers this. I remember gray, cold.

341
00:38:23,367 --> 00:38:30,099
I don’t remember any warmth, any sun, I just don’t remember.

342
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:32,499
IV: Although you came here in the summer.

343
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:36,232
DA: Well, I remember that it was a hot, the heat wave was horrendous.

344
00:38:36,233 --> 00:38:41,632
We were kept, I don’t know, a day, two or three or more outside, I don’t know why.

345
00:38:41,633 --> 00:38:49,499
And it’s, it’s like a nightmare, you dream about, than you wake up, you think you remember, you, it’s, it’s.

346
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:56,732
And then, that was the year of death march.

347
00:38:56,733 --> 00:39:09,666
The 16th of April where they were, all the Jews, whatever their number was, were taken.

348
00:39:09,667 --> 00:39:18,466
And I had an experience to be in the cattle car, closed then with 80-90 people.

349
00:39:18,467 --> 00:39:23,332
And I remember staying for hours at the station.

350
00:39:23,333 --> 00:39:29,232
And I looked through, it was Auschwitz, and I knew then what Auschwitz meant.

351
00:39:29,233 --> 00:39:34,966
And then they didn’t, for whatever reason.

352
00:39:34,967 --> 00:39:40,232
We were there maybe half a day, maybe a whole day, I don’t remember.

353
00:39:40,233 --> 00:39:46,766
And then we were taken someplace else, to Wieliczka, yes, before coming here.

354
00:39:46,767 --> 00:39:57,466
So I remembered one thing, if I have a chance, if I’m put on a train with cattle carts, everything closed in.

355
00:39:57,467 --> 00:40:04,232
And if I have a chance to be in a broken up cart, there’s air.

356
00:40:04,233 --> 00:40:16,999
And what I hoped for, if there’s rain I can lick my hands with rain, I can try to get some drops, because we had no water.

357
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:28,766
So there was the first car, next to the locomotive was, like you would, you would transport logs, wooden logs, something, there was…

358
00:40:28,767 --> 00:40:38,332
So there were two SS men on two chairs, and a… quite a few of us, not too many, got on this, and we were permitted.

359
00:40:38,333 --> 00:40:45,566
And then the train pulled out wherever the stations was in Flossenbürg.

360
00:40:45,567 --> 00:40:52,732
And a short while, I don’t know, it was five minutes, ten minutes, half an hour, three quarters, I don’t know, the time.

361
00:40:52,733 --> 00:41:00,932
The time is crazy, we didn’t have a time, there was no purpose to have time, to know what time it is or what day it is, is the same thing.

362
00:41:00,933 --> 00:41:10,499
Then I saw, cause I had open air, I saw plane, many planes coming in… like this.

363
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:15,132
And bombed the train, the train alongside, boom.

364
00:41:15,133 --> 00:41:17,299
Everything black.

365
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:25,699
So I go like this, is, is, I, is black, everything is smoke, black, I don’t see my hand in front of me.

366
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:32,566
I know I must be alive, I also think I must be injured, but I don’t know where or what, I was not injured.

367
00:41:32,567 --> 00:41:38,232
They killed the, the… the, the conductor, the, the machinist.

368
00:41:38,233 --> 00:41:42,632
And they destroyed the locomotive, it couldn’t move anywhere.

369
00:41:42,633 --> 00:41:51,666
The allies, the Americans I suppose, that bombed the train didn’t know there were concentration camp people.

370
00:41:51,667 --> 00:41:54,999
They thought we were ammunition thing.

371
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:02,732
So about half of the people, of our people, were killed.

372
00:42:02,733 --> 00:42:10,499
And when the smoke calmed down, calmed down a little bit, I took a run, I ran to the woods.

373
00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:22,699
And before you know, there was, there was a German with a rifle, lying on the grounds, not to be spotted by anybody else.

374
00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:27,699
And he says “Come here, crawl”.

375
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:29,999
So I crawled to him.

376
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:35,232
When the raid calmed, down we went back to meet and then we started walking through the woods.

377
00:42:35,233 --> 00:42:46,199
This was from the 16th of April 1945 until April 23rd, 23, 1945.

378
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:54,666
We used to sleep sometimes during the day in the woods, sometimes at night.

379
00:42:54,667 --> 00:43:04,832
And the people who couldn’t make it, sometimes they died, because of the… weakness.

380
00:43:04,833 --> 00:43:09,999
And if they could still move and couldn’t march they were shot to death.

381
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:23,966
And when I tried to fall asleep in the woods, the body was so tired and I was afraid to sleep.

382
00:43:23,967 --> 00:43:32,899
Because if, I felt if I am asleep I may lose my life, when I’m awake maybe I can hide, maybe…

383
00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:35,899
I was hallucinating, you don’t know.

384
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:41,399
But I heard the crickets {imitating cricket sounds}. The sounds.

385
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:49,199
To me, in my days, represented bullets, people are being killed.

386
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:56,599
And then the crickets sounded closer to me, and again, they’re coming after me.

387
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,999
The next sound, the next noise is for me.

388
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,366
I was wrong.

389
00:44:02,367 --> 00:44:17,899
So after seven days of marching, was not enough room in the woods for five, only three, and then comes a point where we stop.

390
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:27,066
And we stand for an hours and the tree become, they start to spreads here, spread here.

391
00:44:27,067 --> 00:44:36,332
And we asked what is going on up front, because the Nazis put us in groups.

392
00:44:36,333 --> 00:44:50,799
Since I was one of in the barrack of up to 18 years of age, so they put the younger kids, the younger boys up to 18 in my group.

393
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:59,099
So comes down from the front that the Germans have turned away their lives.

394
00:44:59,100 --> 00:45:08,566
Some of the clothing, they threw away, some of them put down red cross.

395
00:45:08,567 --> 00:45:13,666
And it’s a mess, so everybody says it’s finished or it’s finished.

396
00:45:13,667 --> 00:45:22,266
And it was a long, long befo.. from where I was standing in the woods, to get to the front was too far and I wouldn’t dare.

397
00:45:22,267 --> 00:45:31,766
And I was with a group maybe 16, 17 or 18, and after a while everybody is, is... just… strolling apart.

398
00:45:31,767 --> 00:45:37,766
Just, you know, disintegrating, you… and feel sort of happy, you don’t know what…

399
00:45:37,767 --> 00:45:41,366
And the kids want to go.

400
00:45:41,367 --> 00:45:47,066
My group, the kids said lets go ahead, I said, no, no, I’m not going anywhere.

401
00:45:47,067 --> 00:45:57,766
I said, you know, I remember, about a kilometer or so from where we came, I could see through the woods an open field.

402
00:45:57,767 --> 00:46:04,366
I don’t know the woods here, you may get into a jungle, I don’t know, you cannot go..

403
00:46:04,367 --> 00:46:08,099
“Oh… we, we can go, we are together.”

404
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:15,866
They went and maybe a half a kilometer the Nazis found them and shot all of these boys.

405
00:46:15,867 --> 00:46:22,466
I don’t know whether you have this on record from the death march, but this is what I know.

406
00:46:22,467 --> 00:46:23,966
IV: We will have to look it up…

407
00:46:23,967 --> 00:46:27,132
DA: Yeah. So I remained all alone.

408
00:46:27,133 --> 00:46:33,932
I don’t know what happened to anybody around me, and then heavy bombardment came.

409
00:46:33,933 --> 00:46:42,666
And I know this is… you know, American or Russian or French or British, I didn’t know.

410
00:46:42,667 --> 00:46:48,999
Then I found a huge tree that had some indentation and I buried myself.

411
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,732
Half of my body could fit, so this bullets, shrapnels flying.

412
00:46:54,733 --> 00:46:59,332
And maybe I was there an hours, maybe an hours and a half, maybe two hours.

413
00:46:59,333 --> 00:47:05,632
I don’t know the exact timing, when it calmed down, it became a little silent.

414
00:47:05,633 --> 00:47:16,299
Slowly and reluctantly, I started very carefully to march where I came from, not to go ahead.

415
00:47:16,300 --> 00:47:23,732
My thinking was, ah, the Nazis are taking us here.

416
00:47:23,733 --> 00:47:31,432
Why did they go from here to here, why didn’t they go there, that means it’s not good for us if it’s good for them.

417
00:47:31,433 --> 00:47:37,232
I go back where I came from because a kilometer or so, I saw an open field through the woods.

418
00:47:37,233 --> 00:47:44,966
So I went back, and I saw the open fields, I saw many tanks, American tanks.

419
00:47:44,967 --> 00:47:50,632
And American planes flying very low, and very slow.

420
00:47:50,633 --> 00:47:58,466
I thought they would crash, slow flying planes {imitates plane sounds}.

421
00:47:58,467 --> 00:48:08,332
And the tank stops and I’m in my, eh, Flossenbürg, like anybody else, striped uniform.

422
00:48:08,333 --> 00:48:19,632
And the first American I saw was this tall, big, not fat, fat, but a tall, muscular black man.

423
00:48:19,633 --> 00:48:26,932
I thought this was the most beautiful human being I’ve ever seen in my life.

424
00:48:26,933 --> 00:48:32,099
I said such, with a mind that isn’t poisoned, whole thing.

425
00:48:32,100 --> 00:48:42,332
“Such a beautiful skin. I would love to do this, to feel this beautiful skin." But I.. you don’t, don’t…

426
00:48:42,333 --> 00:48:50,399
To anybody, to do this. And what I didn’t know is, was going like this… {imitates chewing},

427
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,499
then a white man came up from the tank, he spoke a little German.

428
00:48:54,500 --> 00:49:03,132
I never saw chewing gum and I didn’t know chewing gum, I thought maybe this dif.. people, different people do different things.

429
00:49:03,133 --> 00:49:10,299
Then came the German Luftwaffe, started bombing, this is the middle of the war, and they told me get under the tank.

430
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:13,199
So under the tank you see what’s going on, and they were whistling.

431
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,532
I was like this, they were not concerned. {Imitates machine sounds}

432
00:49:17,533 --> 00:49:22,566
The machine, they got one plane, a few planes ran away, finished.

433
00:49:22,567 --> 00:49:29,066
So they told me this, this white man, spoke some German.

434
00:49:29,067 --> 00:49:38,532
And I could understand him alright, he says "you have to the same direction you came four kilometers, cause this is the front line right now.

435
00:49:38,533 --> 00:49:45,932
Four kilometers we have it a little bit under control, so you can get help."

436
00:49:45,933 --> 00:49:54,266
So I walked, and they said don’t stop until you reach four kilometers more or less, you will see in a village.

437
00:49:54,267 --> 00:49:57,066
So I don’t know what the village was.

438
00:49:57,067 --> 00:49:38,532
And the tanks, American tanks were running to small streets.

439
00:49:38,533 --> 00:50:10,899
Sometimes the tank was too wide to go through some of the narrow streets, but tanks came through.

440
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:13,799
And suddenly I hear a shot or two shots.

441
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:26,999
There was a two or three story house, a German was shooting at the tank, and suddenly I think I, I must be dead, I’m hallucinating things.

442
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:33,632
The tank stopped, this is the road, this is the street, it stopped, the tank turned, {imitates tank sounds}

443
00:50:33,633 --> 00:50:36,932
stopped here. {imitates shooting sounds} The whole thing demolished.

444
00:50:36,933 --> 00:50:40,032
Nothing. And I look at this, I’m in the movies.

445
00:50:40,033 --> 00:50:43,166
They must be making a movie, not this, it’s not real.

446
00:50:43,167 --> 00:50:51,999
Continue, another soldier said continue. Then the American soldiers offered me guns.

447
00:50:52,000 --> 00:51:01,132
No. I will not have a gun, I will not have a knife, until this day no gun, no knife.

448
00:51:01,133 --> 00:51:06,899
My Swiss friends came to visit me, they brought me a miniature, Swiss, everything.

449
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:10,166
Little scissors and knives, litte knife, everything, many things.

450
00:51:10,167 --> 00:51:13,266
I have it, I’m not using it, I’m not taking it.

451
00:51:13,267 --> 00:51:18,799
Then a new chapter in life started.

452
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:29,699
Started at… with me, we cannot trust a human being, I can only trust the people who were in camp with me.

453
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:32,432
They know what I know.

454
00:51:32,433 --> 00:51:36,999
They know how I feel, I know how they feel.

455
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:41,966
We are one, two, five, ten, twenty. We are one, no matter what the number is.

456
00:51:41,967 --> 00:51:56,566
So I had this problem, and there were some, with their, some Germans with the uniform, without the, with the Red Cross band.

457
00:51:56,567 --> 00:52:04,399
“Hey, stop, we want to help”, and I said… my mind, a German will not do anything good for me.

458
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:09,832
Become I’m supposed to be dead, if I go with them, puts a bullet, gives me poison, I’m finished.

459
00:52:09,833 --> 00:52:15,399
This… this is reality, it sounds terrible when you talk to normal people.

460
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:25,999
But this is the reality, this is what they did to me, to my humanity, they make me think and feel that everyone is a killer.

461
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:27,599
Everyone was not a killer.

462
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:34,066
So it, I’m tired, I’m finished, it's night, dark.

463
00:52:34,067 --> 00:52:44,632
I decided for, for... week or ten days… don't know the exact number, I will not sleep in a German house because they’re going to kill me in the middle of the night.

464
00:52:44,633 --> 00:52:47,499
When I’m tired and fall asleep I’ll never get up.

465
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:54,999
So I would sneak into a barn, sometimes with cows, sometimes with horses, chickens, I didn’t know what, pigs.

466
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,499
Sun came out, I was out.

467
00:52:58,500 --> 00:53:02,166
This was about eight, nine, ten days.

468
00:53:02,167 --> 00:53:10,132
Until I ran into some people like me, I said, “Yeah, where do you stay? Where you stay?”

469
00:53:10,133 --> 00:53:15,099
"I, I have been, every night I sleep in a different field, a different barn."

470
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:20,799
He said “Well, I have a nice place, it’s a German woman, she has a house, she gave me a nice room.

471
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:24,499
And she found some meat, some… not meat, some food, some potatoes”.

472
00:53:24,500 --> 00:53:25,432
I don’t know what she gave…

473
00:53:25,433 --> 00:53:33,266
I said “Be careful. Don't trust them. They’ll put some poison in your food, you’ll die.”

474
00:53:33,267 --> 00:53:38,199
He said “No, I’ve been there already five days, six days. I’m here, come, you stay with me”

475
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:44,999
So I felt, I’ll try it, after eight, nine, ten days, I'll try it.

476
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:48,899
So the woman was a very nice woman, an older woman, you know, she…

477
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:54,499
You know, it was me looking at her, you don’t want to help me.

478
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:57,599
You’re supposed to kill me, everybody’s supposed to kill me.

479
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,099
You’re going to help me?

480
00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:03,466
So she had a room, nice room, there was clean sheets, clean bed.

481
00:54:03,467 --> 00:54:11,332
I go for the first time in years to sleep in a bed. Cannot sleep.

482
00:54:11,333 --> 00:54:14,332
It's 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock, I don’t know what, I cannot sleep.

483
00:54:14,333 --> 00:54:19,699
I go on the floor, 5 seconds I was asleep, sound asleep.

484
00:54:19,700 --> 00:54:21,199
The conditioning.

485
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:27,132
And now it’s the reverse, I cannot sleep on a floor, I have to have a comfortable bed.

486
00:54:27,133 --> 00:54:33,532
Then, then a new life started, the new life started, the new life, was no life.

487
00:54:33,533 --> 00:54:38,466
I didn’t know what I was doing every day.

488
00:54:38,467 --> 00:54:47,932
Every day was another day for me, but I was just moving, I didn’t know where I was, I didn’t know any purpose.

489
00:54:47,933 --> 00:54:58,099
And I would go on the, the road. There was a tractor, something, I would go like this, hitchhike.

490
00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:04,532
And then the… the guys would stop, they take me, I have no luggage, nothing, you know, just...

491
00:55:04,533 --> 00:55:09,299
They asked me “Where do you want to go?”, I said anywhere.

492
00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:15,299
Anywhere, well, I’m going another five miles, five kilometers, ten miles.

493
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:19,399
I said, it's good, wherever you go I stop, I go, used to wander, so.

494
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:24,966
I used to end up, I was in Weiden for some days.

495
00:55:24,967 --> 00:55:29,766
I was, after some time I was in Schwandorf.

496
00:55:29,767 --> 00:55:36,666
And Skriebeleit told me last year he said, “Oh, we traced you, you, you were in Schwandorf”

497
00:55:36,667 --> 00:55:39,032
I said “yeah, I thi… I know about Schwandorf.”

498
00:55:39,033 --> 00:55:41,666
I ended up in Regensburg.

499
00:55:41,667 --> 00:55:51,532
And in Regensburg they had, they had ah, a theater which was for plays, and operas.

500
00:55:51,533 --> 00:55:58,199
So right away I ran to the conductor, said I want to play, said yes, so I played.

501
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:00,932
But that was not my future.

502
00:56:00,933 --> 00:56:15,366
Then I met the ten other kids, my age and younger, and one boy was 11 years old.

503
00:56:15,367 --> 00:56:20,466
We took over a little, a little house on a road.

504
00:56:20,467 --> 00:56:31,466
And these other 10 boys, there were two girls – 16, 17.

505
00:56:31,467 --> 00:56:38,832
And because I was 17, I was the oldest, it’s incredible.

506
00:56:38,833 --> 00:56:45,199
We didn’t know anything but it was a democratic process.

507
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:51,999
They took a vote who should become, pardon the expression, president of these eleven people.

508
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,332
A democratic vote.

509
00:56:54,333 --> 00:56:57,332
IV: Had they been to a camp too?

510
00:56:57,333 --> 00:57:00,699
DA: Not the camp. This was private.

511
00:57:00,700 --> 00:57:01,999
IV: No, I know, but these eleven, the other kids.

512
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:05,066
DA: Oh, they’re all from the camps? I don’t know, not in Flossenbürg.

513
00:57:05,067 --> 00:57:13,466
From different… from, from, from, from Dachau, from different… we never asked one another what camp were you.

514
00:57:13,467 --> 00:57:17,432
We knew you were in a camp, this is it, this is life.

515
00:57:17,433 --> 00:57:23,366
And there the big problem was the 11 year old boy.

516
00:57:23,367 --> 00:57:30,766
And they wanted me to be the head of… I tell them what to do.

517
00:57:30,767 --> 00:57:34,432
I felt good, I was 17 and tell them what to do.

518
00:57:34,433 --> 00:57:40,432
So at 12 o’clock at night I tell them – you go to the farms and bring home food.

519
00:57:40,433 --> 00:57:42,799
They used to terrorize.

520
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:55,866
You know terrorize all the people, ladies, run out, no lights, no like this thing, crimes, screaming.

521
00:57:55,867 --> 00:58:06,166
Two days later there was one who’s Yiddish name was Yossel, Joe, I say ”Joe, I need a violin”.

522
00:58:06,167 --> 00:58:09,999
He said “You’ll get a violin”.

523
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:16,132
He goes in, he goes in different houses, sees a violin, takes the violin, gives you the violin, I start playing.

524
00:58:16,133 --> 00:58:22,799
I have a picture at Philadelphia of that violin and with my friends

525
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:30,266
and an American soldier gave me a cap, wearing the cap, me, playing that violin.

526
00:58:30,267 --> 00:58:36,599
You know, this behavior, this time, so what we do?

527
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:42,199
We were not far from Schwandorf, we were a few kilometers from Schwandorf.

528
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:51,866
These kids go to the police station and steal three or four bicycles.

529
00:58:51,867 --> 00:59:01,832
So there was already organized, there was the German police with the American P.N, coordination.

530
00:59:01,833 --> 00:59:06,566
And we all got the little, ah, I.D. kind of thing.

531
00:59:06,567 --> 00:59:21,532
And five o’clock in the morning two American, with the, with a big truck come, with machine guns, get us up, put us on the trucks.

532
00:59:21,533 --> 00:59:25,699
Oh, they take, take away the I.D.

533
00:59:25,700 --> 00:59:30,799
And once we got on top of the truck they gave us back the I.D.

534
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:38,832
And I gave a signal to the kid before, and they didn’t see us, they had some, in the front, I say, gave a signal, jump.

535
00:59:38,833 --> 00:59:44,799
The Americans went to the station, they came out, none of us …

536
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:53,899
Then I went to the police station, they were going to take us, they wanted to send us to Poland, to something, bla bla bla.

537
00:59:53,900 --> 01:00:01,132
I went the police station, I said you must, I don’t know whether you will understand.

538
01:00:01,133 --> 01:00:08,166
I promise you that you will get the three or four bicycles back, but not today.

539
01:00:08,167 --> 01:00:12,466
If you come, they’ll be, they’ll be a horrible thing and I don’t know what.

540
01:00:12,467 --> 01:00:18,799
I promise you tomorrow I’ll have time to walk with them, and tomorrow we all went.

541
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:22,332
And I’ll never forget the American GIs say “Good boys”.

542
01:00:22,333 --> 01:00:28,832
They gave us chocolates, they gave us some oranges, "Oh, good boys, good boys. Bad life”.

543
01:00:28,833 --> 01:00:36,899
Then I realized this is not my life.

544
01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:43,799
This is not my existence. This is not my future.

545
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,266
I must disappear from here.

546
01:00:47,267 --> 01:00:59,699
But I cannot tell anybody I’m leaving, because I am part, you know, you bind, you bind together, you, you… one, the 11 is one.

547
01:00:59,700 --> 01:01:04,699
I commit a crime if I said I don’t want you anymore, I go away from you, we cannot do this.

548
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:05,999
But I did it.

549
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:13,266
One night I disappeared and they never knew what happened to me, until.

550
01:01:13,267 --> 01:01:19,999
They never knew, in 1945, what happened to me until 1963.

551
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:30,666
Because this... this is not my life. Oh, another… I made the rules. Being sss... the head of the group, of the eleven kids.

552
01:01:30,667 --> 01:01:39,866
The two girls, to us they were the sister, the mother that we lost, everything.

553
01:01:39,867 --> 01:01:45,299
And I said to the boys, because they were wild, with good reason they were wild.

554
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:52,332
I said if anybody touches any, anything of the two girls, you are dead.

555
01:01:52,333 --> 01:01:55,932
Because we knew how to kill somebody, we learned how to kill.

556
01:01:55,933 --> 01:02:00,232
And you cannot touch the girls, and nobody touched the girls.

557
01:02:00,233 --> 01:02:06,699
It was abs… they were our family, our sisters, our everything.

558
01:02:06,700 --> 01:02:12,566
You know, might be related, and the girls thought we were the brothers, you know.

559
01:02:12,567 --> 01:02:17,132
IV: Did you at that time think of going back to Poland or…

560
01:02:17,133 --> 01:02:20,666
DA: Oh, they wanted, they, they…

561
01:02:20,667 --> 01:02:20,999
IV: - search for your parents?

562
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,966
DA: I never wanted to… I never wanted to go back to Poland.

563
01:02:23,967 --> 01:02:29,532
With all due respect, maybe for some people it’s good, for me, I felt it was not good.

564
01:02:29,533 --> 01:02:33,566
IV: But you didn’t know at that point what had happened to your family?

565
01:02:33,567 --> 01:02:39,566
DA: Oh, we had, soon after, not right away, I got many, ah…

566
01:02:39,567 --> 01:02:44,899
mails, letters, and they were red cross and, and, and

567
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:51,632
American services recording every name that survived and every possible situations.

568
01:02:51,633 --> 01:02:55,832
My name, I saw on different places, many that… many months.

569
01:02:55,833 --> 01:03:02,132
And there was one that was Arbeitman, there was one who got in touch with me, an Arbeitman in Paris.

570
01:03:02,133 --> 01:03:07,366
I thought maybe it’s my brother, something, no, it was false, not the same family, right away…

571
01:03:07,367 --> 01:03:10,999
What is the name of your mother, what is the name of your father?

572
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,666
What the names your grandparents, you know… was not.

573
01:03:15,667 --> 01:03:24,066
Sometimes you have people that, they want to think, you know, they’re part, for what reason, I don’t know.

574
01:03:24,067 --> 01:03:34,099
So I moved from this place, I disappeared from the kids.

575
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:49,199
And then I heard that there is, you know, near Munich, St.Ottilien, was some kind of a sanatorium.

576
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:54,732
I don’t know whether you’re aware of that. I don’t know what kind of a sanatorium.

577
01:03:54,733 --> 01:04:01,566
But there was a man, cause we didn’t have food, we didn’t have lodging, we didn’t have anything.

578
01:04:01,567 --> 01:04:06,799
I didn’t know the man, but my friends knew he was an important man.

579
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:15,366
And he said to the mana… there was an orchestra, 17 people.

580
01:04:15,367 --> 01:04:20,799
And they were called the ex-concentration camp orchestra.

581
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,532
So I went to audition, to play for them, and I was taken in.

582
01:04:25,533 --> 01:04:33,999
Again I was the baby, the oldest was 65, I just turned 18, not quiet, was 18 maybe.

583
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:43,132
So I played, and we used to play for displace peoples camps.

584
01:04:43,133 --> 01:04:55,999
Because in Munich there was a … a misplaced persons… eh… in, emm…

585
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:05,166
in Landsberg, where did? In Landsberg did Hitler write "Mein Kampf", in Landsberg?

586
01:05:05,167 --> 01:05:09,832
There was a Jewish displaced persons’ camp.

587
01:05:09,833 --> 01:05:17,232
Once you went to the displaced persons camp you were assured by the Americans, you have a breakfast, you have a lunch, you have a dinner,

588
01:05:17,233 --> 01:05:20,966
and you have a bed to sleep, it is fine, I said no.

589
01:05:20,967 --> 01:05:24,966
I will never be in any camp.

590
01:05:24,967 --> 01:05:31,199
I am going to live private, there’s no camp for me, I have finished with camps.

591
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,999
They can kill me, no camps.

592
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:43,966
So when I joined the ex-concentration camp orchestras, I must have a picture, this.

593
01:05:43,967 --> 01:05:51,832
We were giving concerts in the concentration camp uniforms.

594
01:05:51,833 --> 01:06:04,332
And in 1946, when all the big Nazis were being trialed in Nürnberg, with all international jury, we were invited to the opera house.

595
01:06:04,333 --> 01:06:12,632
And we played a concert for all the international jury, ex concentration camp orchestra.

596
01:06:12,633 --> 01:06:24,599
And we were sponsored by American organizations and what we got was…

597
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:31,666
You know, you’re much too young to realize what a cigarette meant in 19…

598
01:06:31,667 --> 01:06:34,332
Even in the camp, couldn’t find ciga…

599
01:06:34,333 --> 01:06:37,899
They would give you a finger, an arm, for one cigarette.

600
01:06:37,900 --> 01:06:40,599
And I had a few packs of cigarettes.

601
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:52,000
And I would get a pound, have a pound of coffee a month or some pound or something of sugar, as payment.