IV: Ok, so as I told you, we would like to do ah, an interview, emm.
We, I would like to ask you about your biography, about, ah… your, emm, time in the camps.
And we would like to record that for our permanent exhibition.
So, obviously the first question is: Can you tell me a little bit about your familiar background?
Where you come from, what your family was like?
DA: I see. Well, I come from Poland.
I was born in Warsaw, August 1927.
Actually they have my birthday in the archives here two days wrong.
I was born August 13, 27, and Flossenbürg, they have me August 15.
But when I came in, I was not going to argue with a German about two days or three days.
Whatever he wanted, he understood 15, I said 13, I was not going to correct.
So, but, I’m 13 of August, not the 15.
Not important.
Yeah, I came here.
I was prisoner number 14088, which I remember: “Vierzehn null achtundachtzig”.
My good friend Jack Terry was “Vierzehn null sechsundachtzig”. And, emm...
Well, I came here from, from, a, ah… concentration camp in Poland.
Wieliczka, before Budzyń, and there was a Budzyń 1 and Budzyń 2.
If I remember correctly, and I have spoken with former inmate, inmates from Budzyń.
And they couldn’t differentiate from Budzyń 1 and Budzyń 2, because the quality of life was the same, one, two or anything else.
But in Budzyń 1, was called an "Arbeitslager".
Then a year later it became Konzentrationslager, and this is where they, where I became a marked men, "KL", Konzentrationslager.
In Budzyń...
You know… I don’t like to repeat myself of the atrocities, of the inhuman qualities.
I call, don’t call it existence, I call it of nonexistence.
But in Budzyń, it is very important to me why I survived, well, to anyone who survived it’s very important.
And the reason for my being here, for being alive, is because of my music, because of my violin.
In Budzyń was a strictly Jewish camp, not like Flossenbürg, there were mixed religions and nationalities.
In Budzyń, the Nazi commandant, they had several, two or three Polish, Polish Jewish prisoners of war.
They were captured being in the fields as the war, soldiers.
And one man, one Jewish Polish. I have to say Jewish Polish, because there’s this…
You cannot be a Jew and a Pole and I’ll explain to you why.
Because being, at that time, I don’t know whether things have changed, if you were a Jew born in Poland.
I was a Jew born in Warsaw, my father was born in Warsaw, one of my grandparents' fathers was born in Warsaw.
But if you had a passport, the passport read “Citizen”.
For me, for instance, I don’t know how life is today but at that time it would have been “David Arben, citizen of Poland, nationality – Jewish”.
This was a way of life, so you were a marked man.
I was a marked, my family was marked, from the day they were born.
You don’t see this in other countries, of course in the United States, forget about it.
You’re, you come to America today.
You have a mother or father who was born, you’re automatically a citizen, you come, you’re born in the United States from a Mexican mother, you’re an American.
IV: So what happened in Budzyń?
DA: In Budzyń the Nazi commandant picked the Jewish, the p… I have to emphasize, the Polish Jewish prisoner.
And appointed him to be the commandant of the Jewish camp and report to the Nazi commandant every day, whatever.
And his name, I cannot forget, was Stockmann.
My father, my mother, since I play the violin at seven and a half, they thought they had a son, a child, a genius, what do I know.
And they always said, “Oh, he’s a violin virtuoso, violin virtuoso, virtuoso..”
So when I came to Budzyń, and I saw there’s a Jewish commandant in his Polish officer’s uniform I ran to him.
Right away we knew this is Commandant, he was called Commandant Stockmann.
I said “I’m a violin Virtuoso”, I was… at that time I was 14.
And he says “What do you play on your violin?”, so I said “this, this, this, this…”.
“Where did you study?” - “So, so, this..”.
My fortune was that he knew music, he loved music, he knew the professors, he heard about the... the... I studied with.
And he says “You go now to company number 27”.
So in the camp, you look... and tell the Kapo, who was a Jewish Kapo, with a whip, that I have sent you.
I go to company 27, I see there about 15 people, all Jews of course, beautifully shaven, beautifully dressed.
They are clean, they wore shoes, I thought “Who are these people?”
And I say to this Kapo, I said "commandant Stockmann told me to come here"
And the Jewish Kapo says “Get away from here, otherwise…”
25, minimum, always you heard, 25, 25 Peitschen.
But then, two minutes later, the Jewish commandant Stockmann -
The reason I referred “the Jewish commandant” is not to make the mistake, or to give the impression, that is another commandant.
Says “you take this boy”.
So I was all.. with paper, Strohsack, my body, my feet, filthy.
These people were shaved, clean, beautiful clothes, beautiful everything.
So the next day the assistant of Stockmann came in early in the morning to my barrack.
He says “You come with me”.
He took me to a shower place to clean up, then he took me to the warehouse.
He says “Whatever you see, from all the dead people that left their shoes, their clothing, everything, you pick what you want”.
And suddenly, I looked like a human being.
And everybody, everybody in the camp was convinced, knew, they said I was a nephew of Stockmann.
I was not a nephew.
And in order to make life easier for me, he assigned me to the kitchen, to the camp kitchen.
Because his good friend was in the concentration camp and he was the chef.
To be the chef of a kitchen in the concentration camp is like, I always said is like being Henry Kissinger, secretary of states of the United States.
I mean this is... next to the president.
So, I had to peel frozen potatoes.
And after peeling for five, six days my fingers, my hands swell up.
And I was always thinking about a violin, not about life…
My life was the violin, so if I don’t have my fingers, if I do this.. I don’t have my life.
My life was the violin, still is.
So I went to Stockmann, the Jewish commandant.
I said “Look at my fingers, they’re frozen… frozen potatoes, difficult to peel...”
And he says “You come with me”.
He took me to the chef and he says “Let him warm up his hands by the oven, only when there is an inspection, SS inspection…”
We knew, we knew when SS was coming in to look.
“Then you make him peel the potatoes”.
So life was very good for me.
Because you can have a frozen potato, bake it…
And this, and then two days later I am called to commandant Stockmann.
Polish Jewish commandant Stockmann, to his office, he had an office in the camp.
And there is a violin and a bow, violin bow.
He says, and I’m clean, I’m well dressed, I have some food in my stomach.
I’m a rich person in a, in a terrible concentration camp.
And he says “Play”, and I haven’t played for a while, and I started playing...
It was awful. It was terrible.
And I see the intensity of the commandant Stockmann, he looked at me.
But I realized, what I understood and what I heard he tried to do.
He was an extremely intelligent man, and the Nazi commandant had respect for him.
And Stockmann tried to save as many Jews who could, after the war, that something -
He tried to save some physicians, some professors, me if I have a talent you have to save.
Because all the intelligencia from Warsaw, the first to go, the first to be killed, killed by the Nazis,
were the educated Jews, the Jews who had some intelligence.
Those who didn’t even education, they were poor, nothing, the could live a little longer, they were not a threat to any regime.
So I said “Mr. Commandant, I need a little time”, and he says “Take all the time you want to… play”.
After three, four hours, and I went... he made a room, and I warmed up and I started making, and he was happy.
He was such an important man with the Nazis that he didn’t live in the camp itself.
And emm… Jack Terry knows who I’m talking about, you know, he has... Stockmann.
He was allowed to live outside the camp in a specially build bungalow for him.
And the Nazis told him, “Look, you want to have a woman?”
Because it was strictly a men’s camp.
“We’ll take you to a women’s concentration camp, you pick any woman you want to and she can come and live with you”.
So he went and this... Regina, maybe she was 21 or 22, one of the most beautiful -
I didn’t know, at 14 what is means beautiful this, beautiful that.
To me beautiful was if you had a piece of bread, that was beautiful.
And my job was, that an SS would come. And well, we had to be in the barracks by 8 o’clock.
But at 10 o’clock, an SS man with a rifle would come in, get my number, not my name, no name..
I have to go with him, he would take me to Stockmann, outside the camp.
And there was Stockmann having dinner with his beautiful lady, young lady.
And I didn’t believe my eyes. Wonderful food, red wines, nice glasses, I mea…
This, this, this is a time from the past, this is a time that doesn’t exist to me.
My.. my world, I didn’t think it exist anywhere.
Then I would get some food, the SS was not in the bungalow, which Stockmann would call for the SS.
Because if I would go by myself I would be shot from above, you know, from the corners.
Because he had a spotlights, and he… you get out of the barracks you were dead.
So the SS accompanied me back to the barrack.
And this continued for some time, and I was the luckiest prisoner in any concentration camp at that time.
Then, one day, 6:30, quarter to 7 maybe. Can’t tell you the exact time, I didn’t have Rolex those days.
The SS, the Obersturmführer, Untersturmführer, they came in on motorcycles, the whole bunch.
And the whole camp, the camp was at that time 6,000 Jews, everybody had to go to an inspection.
You must have, I’m sure you’re… are quite... right and left and right and left, right, left, right, left, after a while…
I see it’s bad news, I was told to go to the left.
I see young kids, I see some old people, I see sick people.
I said, then we knew, we knew by, if we didn’t know… is be… we didn’t want to know what is expected for, for our… so I see it’s not good.
The result was, there were a 105 people, young, old, sick.
I was one of them.
We were marched out to the woods and there was a big grave, dug and ready.
We were told.. to form a line of three, in front of the grave, one two three, one two three, one two three.
Whatever we had to take off neatly, if you had shoes, to tie your shoe laces, everything.
“Ordnung muss sein, muss herrschen…”
So, it is interesting, of course, I will never forget.
When you have a hail of bullets or a hail of dangerous thing, human nature is something that you don’t think that you’re going to get it. It..
The guy next to you, the person to your left, to your right, who will be hit by this bullet.
But there comes a moment, I hope it never comes to any human being, anyone.
A moment in life like that moment, in front of the grave, where I realized that the next bullet is for me, nobody else.
In the meantime, there was a firing squad of about ten to twelve Ukrainians who joined the Nazis.
Like this, from a little distance, once it’s undressed, all we have to, all they have to do is, a machine gun.
We fall into the grave, and then there’s some strong people, Jews from the camp, who are going to bury us.
And when you bury these people, maybe a quarter, maybe more, maybe less, are not dead.
Because not every bullet kills you, you still have a mind, you’re buried alive.
My luck, Stockmann, the Jewish commandant sees me.
He grabs me, you know, with this intensity, he grabs me.
To the Obersturmführer, he says to the Obersturm… “Das ist ein violin virtuoso, wir brauchen ihn… jetzt weg”
But.. when I stand, stood in front of the grave, and I knew that the next bullet, that I never thought was for me, is for me.
So anything that happened in your lifetime since one year, one and a half year, in a split second, it goes through like this, quicker than, than, than, than a lightning.
And after that I was dead.
You could come, you could cut off an arm, you cut off a leg, I would not feel, I wouldn’t feel, I wouldn’t know nothing.
So when the Obersturmführer said to Stockmann “Weg!” instead of going towards the entrance back to the camp and to the kitchen, I was dead.
And I made a U-turn, do you know what a U-turn is?
I walk and walk and walk and walk and I came back to be killed.
And I happened to, to step on Stockmann without knowing, because I didn’t see anymore.
I, I, I was not aware, my brain was dead.
And Stockmann, I will nev…, picked me up by the left ear, he said "Get out".
And I woke up, sort of, little, walk back to the camp, walked into the kitchen, sat down, no life to me.
About 50 minutes later I looked down.
I had no feelings, my whole body is full of diarrhea.
But I didn’t know, I didn’t feel, I, I see... running, running, whatever I had.
Five minutes later, Stockmann comes to the kitchen with one eye full of blood.
Stockmann wanted to save, was a Jewish doctor.
Stockmann, was a, a... unbelievable.
You could not go to the camps, ah, whatever you will call it, to get health benefits, to get medication.
Because you’re, you have a problem, you know, you were marked, you die.
I was working at one time in the infected quarters and I had sores for four years, my feet were swollen, for four years.
Both of them. And big holes of infections.
Infections cannot heal without antibiotics.
Or, if I would have a little cut on the finger, it cannot heal, because the body does not have any fat.
It is fat that closes up the wound.
No fat, so it stays for a week, for two weeks, for two months.
Then dirt comes in, it becomes infected and it swells, this is the process.
So what happened, he came in with this bloody eye, because the Obersturmführer had the whip, and I saw that whip.
At the end of the whip.. was fine steel hair, a bunch, when you go like this he takes everything.
You know, it’s not just the with leather whip or.. steel.
And when he hits you, and he says “Du verfluchte Jude, du willst alle Juden retten!”
He wanted to save a doctor, physician, who was maybe close to 70 years old, because Stockmann would come into barracks to see who’s sick.
And Stockmann was very smart, very intelligent, and he knew how to negotiate with the Nazis to get medications, to do.
Everybody gave him money, people that came, say you have money, he would give money to this, money to this.
You know, to different Germans that worked there, he got.
And the doctor would come and Stockmann would bring him in the barracks, and see how sick, what can do...
He wanted to help, help, help, help. So.
And I will never forget, I’m sitting there in my own.. garbage, and Stockmann talks with his friend the chef, the kitchen chef.
This is the most important man besides the commandant, he says, points,
he says "You see this eye? This will be alright. You see this kid? Would never been alright".
In other words, he tried to save somebody else, because I was the first one, and maybe he couldn’t negotiate with the Obersturmführer...
The second one you see it, he has a, he has an agenda of sorts, he wants to save.
Didn't work. So.. two days later I’m called again.
The Nazi would come in, 10 o’clock, 9:45, whatever the time, could have been 9 o’clock, I don’t know time.
Take me to play for Stockmann, this time I don’t, I didn’t see the girl.
I have no i… you cannot, he, he… he was Jewish, you couldn’t talk to him like a Jew to a Jew.
He was commandant, he was power, and we were trained, you know, “Achtung, commandant”
I played for him, we had some supper, didn’t say anything to me.
The SS took me back to my barrack maybe half an hour, 40 minutes later, I got some food.
Then at 4:30 in the morning six, seven, eight, nine SS with German shepherds, a guy grabs me out from my whatever, puts a gun on my head.
"Where is Stockmann, where is commandant Stockmann?"
I don’t know.
"You are the only one who saw him the last time, where is Stockmann?"
I didn’t know. The SS took me there, the SS took me back to my barrack.
He left a note.
That he feels that he is not an adequate man to run this concentration camp.
If a 104 people could be, innocent people, could be killed for nothing. Massacred.
Including the healthy one, who were shoveling the grave, they were shot there too.
He said he cannot be a commandant for this camp and he vanished.
Where to, we didn't, I don’t know.
Maybe Jack Terry, we all remember little different things from the same period.
IV: You told me this…
DA: I beg your pardon?
IV: You told me this morning, or you told ah... ah… other people too, this morning that you also, ah.. played the… violin in Flossenbürg.
DA: Oh, this is, this I speak before I came here.
You see, all this happened before I came to Flossenbürg.
When I came into Flossenbürg we had a heat wave.
Jack told me, you know, I don’t re.. I remember something terrible, but everything was terrible, you know, this.
IV: You had met Jack Terry before?
DA: He was... Yes. Jack Terry and I, for the last three years before the end of the war, we were the same camps together.
And he was 18, eh, 14086, I was 14088, he was two… came the same transport to Flossenbürg.
And I cannot tell you for sure whether it was the first Sunday or the second Sunday.
But one weekend, Sunday, we had free in Flossenbürg.
Then I hear music and I run, and there was like a chamber orchestra.
And you know right away identify yourself, in Flossenbürg we had a triangle star with a "P", and, and if you’re a Jew you had a yellow stripe underneath.
If you’re not a Jew you have red.
And I had this "P" – Poland, Polish, yellow meaning Jewish.
And a wonderful musicians. And I see "C", Czech Republic, that time it was Czechoslovakia, whatever, Czech Republic.
And I remember it like it would be now, there was one Tenor, was beautiful, and they all played beautifully.
Then I thought there is hope for me.
Because the conductor, as I told you before, was a German.
There were two kinds of Germans – non Jews who were imprisoned in different concentration camps
like in Buchenwald, ah… like in Dachau or in Auschwitz.
They were politically, was red.
If you were a criminal, you did something terrible, was green.
And of course this is your passport, this was your ID.
I look at this conductor, tall man, nice man, with eh… with red, oh, this is good, because he’s anti-Nazi.
He will understand, he will let me play.
So, after the concert’s finished I go up to the conductor.
I tell him, “I’m a violinist, bla bla bla. I would like to play, if possible, in your orchestra”
He says to me, “I don’t have any Jews in my orchestra”
Was another shock to me.
Here, he is, he is a prisoner, he has the red thing, which is anti the regime, he did something that put him in prison.
And he’s anti-Jewish, nothing changes.
So maybe a few days later, a week later, on a Sunday.
I was insane, because music was my life.
This is what I thought. I was young enough not to know better, maybe you grow you say, what? Music, this?
There’s… there are other ways in life.
Yeah, it’s a little thing flying around.
So this commandant here, Feix, not Feix, who was the commandant here?
IV: Kögel.
DA: Which comm..
IV: Kögel.
DA: In Flossenbürg.
He used to come and, to Flossenbürg, to the camp, on occasions.
Too often, once is too often, but often.
And it used to be, ah, we used to observe, twilight, between day and evening.
Was not dark, was not light.
He would have a revolver and he would shoot somebody, for nothing.
No provocation, nothing.
It was like having a cocktail.
And with so many people there’s always one.
And we all knew, when he comes in, we knew we run, but there’s always one who’s ready to be killed.
Not one to die, but.
So one Sunday morning was a beautiful sunny day, maybe 11:30 or so.
Noon time, I’m talking to two kids from my barrack outside.
The gate opens up and this commandant, the killer, comes in and I lost my mind. I run to the commandant.
I tell him, “Herr Kommandant, ich bin ein violin virtuoso”, pardon my expression.
“Und ich möchte gerne mit… mitwirken im orchestra, aber der Dirigent sagte er hat keine Juden, kein Jude kann.“
"Komm mit mir".
The killer, I went to the killer for, for reasoning.
He took me to the conductor and he says: “He’s going to play in the orchestra”
And I did play.
But the conductor gave me a difficult time, difficult time was I had to carry all the music, all the stands.
I had to do this, I didn’t mind.
I didn’t mind, but I played, I don’t know how bad it was but I played a few times.
IV: Can you remember what you played there?
DA: No. Absolutely nothing… the playing was my life.
What is it... I don’t remember what we played.
IV: Did you play for the other prisoners?
DA: No, I did never.
Violin, because all the instruments that the Czech players played, you couldn’t practice on.
They were in the warehouse, they were locked up with the music, with the stands, with the instruments, everything.
Only you got it together, they... Because you couldn’t take an instrument to a barrack, nobody would permit.
So my two friends said, they would ran to the commandant, we just lost him, they didn’t know what happened, he lost his mind.
I wasn’t killed.
So over time I got to know many people in different places.
And sometimes I would be invited to doctors, to psychiatrist homes for dinner and so on, so.
And I’ve known a professor psychiatrist, the university of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia.
So, I’ve known for years, and I would come, always, new years’ day, always dinner, for years.
And after that we sat on the couch, I said “You know I meant to ask you a long time ago”
I told him this incident, this killer that I complained
“I want to play the violin but he doesn’t let me because I’m a Jew.”
I mean, this man killed… So this psychiatrist says: “I can tell you one thing. You were not an actor.
Because if you would be an actor you would have been dead right on the spot.
I cannot tell to you exactly why and what, we have to analyze for months.
But what I see, you didn’t, you didn’t know what you were doing.”
I said, “My friend, I still don’t know what I’m doing.”
He said “You went to this killer and you elevated him.
You gave him even more power than he had, he had the power to kill you, and he has more power than the conductor.”
He can be a German but he is a prisoner.
And it is the commandant who is the powerful man, who decides who lives and who dies.
Because he is the final ward.
So the conductor is, even though he’s German, he is not good enough to make a decision whether I play or don’t play.
This is this psychological game in the brain, this is…
So that was that episode that ended.
Now I remember, yeah, it happened here, it… maybe you, is... some things happened like in a twilight.
For a short time I remember there was, there were some girls, prostitutes, brought in here, you have it on record?
You know about it?
IV: Yes.
DA: Then I know what I’m talking about here.
And I thought, me sex is…
Never thought about it, you know I come from a very conservative…
very, you know, you don’t, you have sex, you marry, I was young, was a kid, you wait.
But I thought, you had to pay with some prisoners’ money, something.
You had to sign up, so I signed up and I thought if I go to this women, she has sex with everybody, soldiers, and so, and SS, she must have some bread.
Maybe I can get some bread, so my turn, I see guys, wai... everybody got 15 or 20 minutes, something.
She looks at me, was emm... young woman.
I don’t know where she was from or whether she was a prisoner, you know… women’s camp.
She looks at me, she says “young boy… you want?”
I won’t be as vulgar, “You want to make love?” I said “oh no, no, no, no…”
She says “You should be happy if you can pee.”
I said “Yes, yes, I’m happy I can pee, yes”.
I said “I just came here… maybe if you give me some bread..”, so she gave me some bread.
And I… this is smart, I’m so smart, I wouldn’t tell anybody, because I’m afraid.
By the time I tried to, to line up again another time it was gone, things changed, you know.
So ah… and then I worked for Messerschmitt.
IV: What kind of work was there?
DA: I, I did this… ah, identical work for wings, with… to get wings together, ahhh.
There were aluminum things, the same thing Jack did.
It was a long factory and if you could make, I don’t remember, a certain quota, you would get another soup for it.
And I became very good at it, I would be making more than my quota, cause I wanted that soup.
The soup was nothing, as Jack said, was… warm mud, which is better than no mud, warm mud.
So ah…
It was forever.
Yesterday I asked Jack Terry, I said “You know, I don’t remember any sun in Flossenbürg.”
I, I.. he said there were some days here, he remembers this. I remember gray, cold.
I don’t remember any warmth, any sun, I just don’t remember.
IV: Although you came here in the summer.
DA: Well, I remember that it was a hot, the heat wave was horrendous.
We were kept, I don’t know, a day, two or three or more outside, I don’t know why.
And it’s, it’s like a nightmare, you dream about, than you wake up, you think you remember, you, it’s, it’s.
And then, that was the year of death march.
The 16th of April where they were, all the Jews, whatever their number was, were taken.
And I had an experience to be in the cattle car, closed then with 80-90 people.
And I remember staying for hours at the station.
And I looked through, it was Auschwitz, and I knew then what Auschwitz meant.
And then they didn’t, for whatever reason.
We were there maybe half a day, maybe a whole day, I don’t remember.
And then we were taken someplace else, to Wieliczka, yes, before coming here.
So I remembered one thing, if I have a chance, if I’m put on a train with cattle carts, everything closed in.
And if I have a chance to be in a broken up cart, there’s air.
And what I hoped for, if there’s rain I can lick my hands with rain, I can try to get some drops, because we had no water.
So there was the first car, next to the locomotive was, like you would, you would transport logs, wooden logs, something, there was…
So there were two SS men on two chairs, and a… quite a few of us, not too many, got on this, and we were permitted.
And then the train pulled out wherever the stations was in Flossenbürg.
And a short while, I don’t know, it was five minutes, ten minutes, half an hour, three quarters, I don’t know, the time.
The time is crazy, we didn’t have a time, there was no purpose to have time, to know what time it is or what day it is, is the same thing.
Then I saw, cause I had open air, I saw plane, many planes coming in… like this.
And bombed the train, the train alongside, boom.
Everything black.
So I go like this, is, is, I, is black, everything is smoke, black, I don’t see my hand in front of me.
I know I must be alive, I also think I must be injured, but I don’t know where or what, I was not injured.
They killed the, the… the, the conductor, the, the machinist.
And they destroyed the locomotive, it couldn’t move anywhere.
The allies, the Americans I suppose, that bombed the train didn’t know there were concentration camp people.
They thought we were ammunition thing.
So about half of the people, of our people, were killed.
And when the smoke calmed down, calmed down a little bit, I took a run, I ran to the woods.
And before you know, there was, there was a German with a rifle, lying on the grounds, not to be spotted by anybody else.
And he says “Come here, crawl”.
So I crawled to him.
When the raid calmed, down we went back to meet and then we started walking through the woods.
This was from the 16th of April 1945 until April 23rd, 23, 1945.
We used to sleep sometimes during the day in the woods, sometimes at night.
And the people who couldn’t make it, sometimes they died, because of the… weakness.
And if they could still move and couldn’t march they were shot to death.
And when I tried to fall asleep in the woods, the body was so tired and I was afraid to sleep.
Because if, I felt if I am asleep I may lose my life, when I’m awake maybe I can hide, maybe…
I was hallucinating, you don’t know.
But I heard the crickets {imitating cricket sounds}. The sounds.
To me, in my days, represented bullets, people are being killed.
And then the crickets sounded closer to me, and again, they’re coming after me.
The next sound, the next noise is for me.
I was wrong.
So after seven days of marching, was not enough room in the woods for five, only three, and then comes a point where we stop.
And we stand for an hours and the tree become, they start to spreads here, spread here.
And we asked what is going on up front, because the Nazis put us in groups.
Since I was one of in the barrack of up to 18 years of age, so they put the younger kids, the younger boys up to 18 in my group.
So comes down from the front that the Germans have turned away their lives.
Some of the clothing, they threw away, some of them put down red cross.
And it’s a mess, so everybody says it’s finished or it’s finished.
And it was a long, long befo.. from where I was standing in the woods, to get to the front was too far and I wouldn’t dare.
And I was with a group maybe 16, 17 or 18, and after a while everybody is, is... just… strolling apart.
Just, you know, disintegrating, you… and feel sort of happy, you don’t know what…
And the kids want to go.
My group, the kids said lets go ahead, I said, no, no, I’m not going anywhere.
I said, you know, I remember, about a kilometer or so from where we came, I could see through the woods an open field.
I don’t know the woods here, you may get into a jungle, I don’t know, you cannot go..
“Oh… we, we can go, we are together.”
They went and maybe a half a kilometer the Nazis found them and shot all of these boys.
I don’t know whether you have this on record from the death march, but this is what I know.
IV: We will have to look it up…
DA: Yeah. So I remained all alone.
I don’t know what happened to anybody around me, and then heavy bombardment came.
And I know this is… you know, American or Russian or French or British, I didn’t know.
Then I found a huge tree that had some indentation and I buried myself.
Half of my body could fit, so this bullets, shrapnels flying.
And maybe I was there an hours, maybe an hours and a half, maybe two hours.
I don’t know the exact timing, when it calmed down, it became a little silent.
Slowly and reluctantly, I started very carefully to march where I came from, not to go ahead.
My thinking was, ah, the Nazis are taking us here.
Why did they go from here to here, why didn’t they go there, that means it’s not good for us if it’s good for them.
I go back where I came from because a kilometer or so, I saw an open field through the woods.
So I went back, and I saw the open fields, I saw many tanks, American tanks.
And American planes flying very low, and very slow.
I thought they would crash, slow flying planes {imitates plane sounds}.
And the tank stops and I’m in my, eh, Flossenbürg, like anybody else, striped uniform.
And the first American I saw was this tall, big, not fat, fat, but a tall, muscular black man.
I thought this was the most beautiful human being I’ve ever seen in my life.
I said such, with a mind that isn’t poisoned, whole thing.
“Such a beautiful skin. I would love to do this, to feel this beautiful skin." But I.. you don’t, don’t…
To anybody, to do this. And what I didn’t know is, was going like this… {imitates chewing},
then a white man came up from the tank, he spoke a little German.
I never saw chewing gum and I didn’t know chewing gum, I thought maybe this dif.. people, different people do different things.
Then came the German Luftwaffe, started bombing, this is the middle of the war, and they told me get under the tank.
So under the tank you see what’s going on, and they were whistling.
I was like this, they were not concerned. {Imitates machine sounds}
The machine, they got one plane, a few planes ran away, finished.
So they told me this, this white man, spoke some German.
And I could understand him alright, he says "you have to the same direction you came four kilometers, cause this is the front line right now.
Four kilometers we have it a little bit under control, so you can get help."
So I walked, and they said don’t stop until you reach four kilometers more or less, you will see in a village.
So I don’t know what the village was.
And the tanks, American tanks were running to small streets.
Sometimes the tank was too wide to go through some of the narrow streets, but tanks came through.
And suddenly I hear a shot or two shots.
There was a two or three story house, a German was shooting at the tank, and suddenly I think I, I must be dead, I’m hallucinating things.
The tank stopped, this is the road, this is the street, it stopped, the tank turned, {imitates tank sounds}
stopped here. {imitates shooting sounds} The whole thing demolished.
Nothing. And I look at this, I’m in the movies.
They must be making a movie, not this, it’s not real.
Continue, another soldier said continue. Then the American soldiers offered me guns.
No. I will not have a gun, I will not have a knife, until this day no gun, no knife.
My Swiss friends came to visit me, they brought me a miniature, Swiss, everything.
Little scissors and knives, litte knife, everything, many things.
I have it, I’m not using it, I’m not taking it.
Then a new chapter in life started.
Started at… with me, we cannot trust a human being, I can only trust the people who were in camp with me.
They know what I know.
They know how I feel, I know how they feel.
We are one, two, five, ten, twenty. We are one, no matter what the number is.
So I had this problem, and there were some, with their, some Germans with the uniform, without the, with the Red Cross band.
“Hey, stop, we want to help”, and I said… my mind, a German will not do anything good for me.
Become I’m supposed to be dead, if I go with them, puts a bullet, gives me poison, I’m finished.
This… this is reality, it sounds terrible when you talk to normal people.
But this is the reality, this is what they did to me, to my humanity, they make me think and feel that everyone is a killer.
Everyone was not a killer.
So it, I’m tired, I’m finished, it's night, dark.
I decided for, for... week or ten days… don't know the exact number, I will not sleep in a German house because they’re going to kill me in the middle of the night.
When I’m tired and fall asleep I’ll never get up.
So I would sneak into a barn, sometimes with cows, sometimes with horses, chickens, I didn’t know what, pigs.
Sun came out, I was out.
This was about eight, nine, ten days.
Until I ran into some people like me, I said, “Yeah, where do you stay? Where you stay?”
"I, I have been, every night I sleep in a different field, a different barn."
He said “Well, I have a nice place, it’s a German woman, she has a house, she gave me a nice room.
And she found some meat, some… not meat, some food, some potatoes”.
I don’t know what she gave…
I said “Be careful. Don't trust them. They’ll put some poison in your food, you’ll die.”
He said “No, I’ve been there already five days, six days. I’m here, come, you stay with me”
So I felt, I’ll try it, after eight, nine, ten days, I'll try it.
So the woman was a very nice woman, an older woman, you know, she…
You know, it was me looking at her, you don’t want to help me.
You’re supposed to kill me, everybody’s supposed to kill me.
You’re going to help me?
So she had a room, nice room, there was clean sheets, clean bed.
I go for the first time in years to sleep in a bed. Cannot sleep.
It's 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock, I don’t know what, I cannot sleep.
I go on the floor, 5 seconds I was asleep, sound asleep.
The conditioning.
And now it’s the reverse, I cannot sleep on a floor, I have to have a comfortable bed.
Then, then a new life started, the new life started, the new life, was no life.
I didn’t know what I was doing every day.
Every day was another day for me, but I was just moving, I didn’t know where I was, I didn’t know any purpose.
And I would go on the, the road. There was a tractor, something, I would go like this, hitchhike.
And then the… the guys would stop, they take me, I have no luggage, nothing, you know, just...
They asked me “Where do you want to go?”, I said anywhere.
Anywhere, well, I’m going another five miles, five kilometers, ten miles.
I said, it's good, wherever you go I stop, I go, used to wander, so.
I used to end up, I was in Weiden for some days.
I was, after some time I was in Schwandorf.
And Skriebeleit told me last year he said, “Oh, we traced you, you, you were in Schwandorf”
I said “yeah, I thi… I know about Schwandorf.”
I ended up in Regensburg.
And in Regensburg they had, they had ah, a theater which was for plays, and operas.
So right away I ran to the conductor, said I want to play, said yes, so I played.
But that was not my future.
Then I met the ten other kids, my age and younger, and one boy was 11 years old.
We took over a little, a little house on a road.
And these other 10 boys, there were two girls – 16, 17.
And because I was 17, I was the oldest, it’s incredible.
We didn’t know anything but it was a democratic process.
They took a vote who should become, pardon the expression, president of these eleven people.
A democratic vote.
IV: Had they been to a camp too?
DA: Not the camp. This was private.
IV: No, I know, but these eleven, the other kids.
DA: Oh, they’re all from the camps? I don’t know, not in Flossenbürg.
From different… from, from, from, from Dachau, from different… we never asked one another what camp were you.
We knew you were in a camp, this is it, this is life.
And there the big problem was the 11 year old boy.
And they wanted me to be the head of… I tell them what to do.
I felt good, I was 17 and tell them what to do.
So at 12 o’clock at night I tell them – you go to the farms and bring home food.
They used to terrorize.
You know terrorize all the people, ladies, run out, no lights, no like this thing, crimes, screaming.
Two days later there was one who’s Yiddish name was Yossel, Joe, I say ”Joe, I need a violin”.
He said “You’ll get a violin”.
He goes in, he goes in different houses, sees a violin, takes the violin, gives you the violin, I start playing.
I have a picture at Philadelphia of that violin and with my friends
and an American soldier gave me a cap, wearing the cap, me, playing that violin.
You know, this behavior, this time, so what we do?
We were not far from Schwandorf, we were a few kilometers from Schwandorf.
These kids go to the police station and steal three or four bicycles.
So there was already organized, there was the German police with the American P.N, coordination.
And we all got the little, ah, I.D. kind of thing.
And five o’clock in the morning two American, with the, with a big truck come, with machine guns, get us up, put us on the trucks.
Oh, they take, take away the I.D.
And once we got on top of the truck they gave us back the I.D.
And I gave a signal to the kid before, and they didn’t see us, they had some, in the front, I say, gave a signal, jump.
The Americans went to the station, they came out, none of us …
Then I went to the police station, they were going to take us, they wanted to send us to Poland, to something, bla bla bla.
I went the police station, I said you must, I don’t know whether you will understand.
I promise you that you will get the three or four bicycles back, but not today.
If you come, they’ll be, they’ll be a horrible thing and I don’t know what.
I promise you tomorrow I’ll have time to walk with them, and tomorrow we all went.
And I’ll never forget the American GIs say “Good boys”.
They gave us chocolates, they gave us some oranges, "Oh, good boys, good boys. Bad life”.
Then I realized this is not my life.
This is not my existence. This is not my future.
I must disappear from here.
But I cannot tell anybody I’m leaving, because I am part, you know, you bind, you bind together, you, you… one, the 11 is one.
I commit a crime if I said I don’t want you anymore, I go away from you, we cannot do this.
But I did it.
One night I disappeared and they never knew what happened to me, until.
They never knew, in 1945, what happened to me until 1963.
Because this... this is not my life. Oh, another… I made the rules. Being sss... the head of the group, of the eleven kids.
The two girls, to us they were the sister, the mother that we lost, everything.
And I said to the boys, because they were wild, with good reason they were wild.
I said if anybody touches any, anything of the two girls, you are dead.
Because we knew how to kill somebody, we learned how to kill.
And you cannot touch the girls, and nobody touched the girls.
It was abs… they were our family, our sisters, our everything.
You know, might be related, and the girls thought we were the brothers, you know.
IV: Did you at that time think of going back to Poland or…
DA: Oh, they wanted, they, they…
IV: - search for your parents?
DA: I never wanted to… I never wanted to go back to Poland.
With all due respect, maybe for some people it’s good, for me, I felt it was not good.
IV: But you didn’t know at that point what had happened to your family?
DA: Oh, we had, soon after, not right away, I got many, ah…
mails, letters, and they were red cross and, and, and
American services recording every name that survived and every possible situations.
My name, I saw on different places, many that… many months.
And there was one that was Arbeitman, there was one who got in touch with me, an Arbeitman in Paris.
I thought maybe it’s my brother, something, no, it was false, not the same family, right away…
What is the name of your mother, what is the name of your father?
What the names your grandparents, you know… was not.
Sometimes you have people that, they want to think, you know, they’re part, for what reason, I don’t know.
So I moved from this place, I disappeared from the kids.
And then I heard that there is, you know, near Munich, St.Ottilien, was some kind of a sanatorium.
I don’t know whether you’re aware of that. I don’t know what kind of a sanatorium.
But there was a man, cause we didn’t have food, we didn’t have lodging, we didn’t have anything.
I didn’t know the man, but my friends knew he was an important man.
And he said to the mana… there was an orchestra, 17 people.
And they were called the ex-concentration camp orchestra.
So I went to audition, to play for them, and I was taken in.
Again I was the baby, the oldest was 65, I just turned 18, not quiet, was 18 maybe.
So I played, and we used to play for displace peoples camps.
Because in Munich there was a … a misplaced persons… eh… in, emm…
in Landsberg, where did? In Landsberg did Hitler write "Mein Kampf", in Landsberg?
There was a Jewish displaced persons’ camp.
Once you went to the displaced persons camp you were assured by the Americans, you have a breakfast, you have a lunch, you have a dinner,
and you have a bed to sleep, it is fine, I said no.
I will never be in any camp.
I am going to live private, there’s no camp for me, I have finished with camps.
They can kill me, no camps.
So when I joined the ex-concentration camp orchestras, I must have a picture, this.
We were giving concerts in the concentration camp uniforms.
And in 1946, when all the big Nazis were being trialed in Nürnberg, with all international jury, we were invited to the opera house.
And we played a concert for all the international jury, ex concentration camp orchestra.
And we were sponsored by American organizations and what we got was…
You know, you’re much too young to realize what a cigarette meant in 19…
Even in the camp, couldn’t find ciga…
They would give you a finger, an arm, for one cigarette.
And I had a few packs of cigarettes.
And I would get a pound, have a pound of coffee a month or some pound or something of sugar, as payment.