1
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:36,666
JT: Walk slowly, or what?

2
00:02:36,667 --> 00:02:42,332
CM: Well, you.. A bit more speed would be nice, but not too much.

3
00:02:42,333 --> 00:03:56,999
JT: Ok.

4
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:27,332
CM: It’s rolling… yeah.

5
00:04:27,333 --> 00:04:35,332
Maybe a bit closer to the window would be nice.. a bit closer to the window.

6
00:04:35,333 --> 00:05:06,666
Yeah, that’s fine.

7
00:05:06,667 --> 00:05:27,499
Jetzt.. you.. come to us.

8
00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:33,466
IV: Here Mr. Terry now we are a place, ah… that is responsible that you survived I think this camp.

9
00:05:33,467 --> 00:05:37,332
Maybe you can tell us a little bit of the story.

10
00:05:37,333 --> 00:05:55,299
JT: Well, on the 15th of April, ah, the Schreiber Miloš Kučera saw me on the Appellplatz and he said when the curfew whistle blows at 21:00 o’clock don’t go to your barrack.

11
00:05:55,300 --> 00:06:05,599
Go to the Heizung in the Wäscherei and there is a German with a green triangle, a prisoner, who will hide you.

12
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:17,166
And he told me that tomorrow all the Jews will be evacuated from the camp, so this is what I want you to do.

13
00:06:17,167 --> 00:06:31,999
So I, when the whistle blew I came down here, and the German, ah, Häftling already knew that I was going to come, and he put me into this tunnel,

14
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:41,799
which was pipes going from the boiler, the Heizung, pipes that were filled up.

15
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:55,266
And there was.. and I was lying there for approximately 2 days, flat, hot, hungry, thirsty, afraid.

16
00:06:55,267 --> 00:07:09,066
In the morning, on the 16th, I heard a lot of noise above, on the Appellplatz, and that’s when they took all the Jews on the death march.

17
00:07:09,067 --> 00:07:11,066
IV: And then, what happened then?

18
00:07:11,067 --> 00:07:21,366
JT: Then when I came out the, ah, SS had left and we were all standing on the Appellplatz

19
00:07:21,367 --> 00:07:31,999
and I was recognized by one of the Ukrainian, ah, young inmates from my block, on block 9, eh.. 19,

20
00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:44,066
and he said in Russian,  "Один Żyd остал". Which in Russian translates to “one Jew remains”.

21
00:07:44,067 --> 00:07:58,666
And, ah, within a short time the SS came back and so I went again to Miloš Kučera and I said, ah, “I am in danger, I’ve been recognized”.

22
00:07:58,667 --> 00:08:09,466
And he said to me go to the Revier and seek Carl Schrade, who was the, ah, in charge of the Revier,

23
00:08:09,467 --> 00:08:20,332
And Carl Schrade, ah, gave me a different number of a Russian, whose name, ah, was Waganow Wasilij.

24
00:08:20,333 --> 00:08:31,499
And they put the number on my uniform and ah, they put me in the section where there was typhus.

25
00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:45,899
And ah, I was there, and when they called out the name to give you the piece of bread at night, ah, they called out Waganow Wasilij and I said “дa”.

26
00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:55,566
And I also knew a few words that he told me, ah, Carl Schrade told me to remember, memorize.

27
00:08:55,567 --> 00:09:07,099
Ah, as to where I’m from and so forth, and I hear a faint voice of a man who’s very sick saying in Russian,

28
00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:12,366
"Васа откуда ты?", “where are you from?”.

29
00:09:12,367 --> 00:09:17,199
So I said "Из Харькова", from Charkow.

30
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:23,832
And he says, "Uu Ты мой земляк"  , “you’re my Landsmann."

31
00:09:23,833 --> 00:09:34,766
And so I got scared again, and I went to Carl Schrade and I said, I told him what happened, that I found a Landsmann from Charkow.

32
00:09:34,767 --> 00:09:52,799
So Carl Schrade took me and gave me a different room in the Revier, and there I remained until, ah, the ah 23th, when the camp was liberated.

33
00:09:52,800 --> 00:10:00,332
IV: So being here, you, I think you’ve been to this place quite often.

34
00:10:00,333 --> 00:10:06,032
So now looking at this place is there anything that comes up, seeing this place?

35
00:10:06,033 --> 00:10:12,632
JT: Yes, ah, it comes up and it doesn’t look like it did at the time.

36
00:10:12,633 --> 00:10:25,999
But the memory of the feeling always come back and it gives me kind of a shivering feeling, like goosebumps and ah..

37
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:34,532
You know, it, it, it evokes the whole process, like it never leaves you.

38
00:10:34,533 --> 00:10:46,299
IV: So during our interview before, you said, ah, every day the most important question was how can I survive, life, how can I stay alive.

39
00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:55,999
In all these days here, in all, in all these years you went from camp to camp was there anything that gave hope?

40
00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:02,632
Ma.. and gave the power maybe to be so strong to survive? Where there any parts of hope, or?

41
00:11:02,633 --> 00:11:15,666
JT: Ah.. not really. But you see, ah, the hope was there, not in the conscious mind.

42
00:11:15,667 --> 00:11:30,466
But it was there, in fact I think it was put best by the words of the polish poet Tadeusz Borowski,

43
00:11:30,467 --> 00:11:43,332
who, ah, was in Auschwitz and who in 19.. I think 1946 committed suicide as a young man, who said that we never..

44
00:11:43,333 --> 00:11:51,032
One of the things that accounts for the survival is that we never learned how no to hope.

45
00:11:51,033 --> 00:12:06,332
We never gave up hope, and, ah, he, he wro... he wrote, in his famous book he writes about in Auschwitz, an incident..

46
00:12:06,333 --> 00:12:20,332
To demonstrate this, is a man who comes off the train and is marching towards, I mean a group of people are marching towards the gas chamber.

47
00:12:20,333 --> 00:12:29,699
And this man is exhausted from the whole trip and he falls down and the SS guard says to him get up or I’ll shoot you.

48
00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:38,666
So he gets up and he walks a 100 or 200 meters to death in the gas chamber.

49
00:12:38,667 --> 00:12:46,699
So you have 200 meters of hope, that last minute “I’m gonna shoot you”, so he gets up and he walks.

50
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:55,832
So, ah, hope wasn’t, of course there is, consciously may have thought maybe..

51
00:12:55,833 --> 00:13:03,399
Maybe, but, ah, it was a day.. minute to minute kind of existence.

52
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:13,066
IV: So it was more kind of hope.. instinctively, like a signal from a… go on, go on, go on…

53
00:13:13,067 --> 00:13:20,432
JT: From the unconscious, it’s almost like an animal instinct, drive.

54
00:13:20,433 --> 00:13:31,499
The animal doesn’t think about hope, he just knows how to save himself from the danger, and that's what we were reduced to.

55
00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:43,399
As..ah, our humanity of thinking and hoping and a.. it was taken away from us, with our names and everything else.

56
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:53,166
Everything that was ah.. yours, own, was not your own anymore. Even your body wasn’t your own.

57
00:13:53,167 --> 00:13:56,799
Like we possessed nothing.

58
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:25,332
IV: Ok.

59
00:14:25,333 --> 00:16:05,332
CM: Dann schneid' ich jetzt den Himmel ab. Weil der oben zu arg ablenken würde. Und geh halt auf die..

60
00:16:05,333 --> 00:16:21,332
IV: Geht schon los. You can come.

61
00:16:21,333 --> 00:16:37,999
CM: Bissel weiter wenn er rübergeht, so nach rechts. Dreht das mal eweng nach rechts, ja rechts. Nee, das war falsch. Ah Shit. Ah.

62
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:38,932
JT: Ok?

63
00:16:38,933 --> 00:17:08,499
CM: Ok.

64
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:15,532
IV: Ok, the last two questions. So when you came here you came from Poland, your language was Polish.

65
00:17:15,533 --> 00:17:22,499
Today it’s English. And in your book I r.. I read here in the camps you learned to speak German and it was important.

66
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,366
Maybe you can tell us a little bit about that.

67
00:17:24,367 --> 00:17:36,199
JT: Well, haha, again, the.. in order to survive you had to be able to understand German and you learn quickly.

68
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:51,166
And we saw that those people who didn’t understand, ah…. German, had a great deal of more difficulties staying alive.

69
00:17:51,167 --> 00:17:56,999
Because if you didn’t understand, ah.. although..

70
00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,632
If you didn’t understand the language you couldn’t follow orders.

71
00:18:00,633 --> 00:18:08,332
And if you did not obey the order in some way or another you were at least punished, if not, you know…

72
00:18:08,333 --> 00:18:24,799
And punishment resulted usually in a trauma to your body, emm, as well as to your mind, but the body had to be, ah, kept, kept you going.

73
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:35,332
If you lost the strength or if you got a broken f… leg or an arm you were no longer functioning.

74
00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:46,332
And so your, your life again was at it's edge, so it was important to understand what.. and, in order to just get along with other people.

75
00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:50,999
So the common language was German, so you had to learn it.

76
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:57,866
And at that age, you know, when you’re young, you learn the language much quicker.

77
00:18:57,867 --> 00:19:04,999
IV: And so when you went to the States you, you learned English very well, and what about the meaning of the German language for you?

78
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:13,599
So there’s some people, they, they swore, I never will go back to Germany, I never will talk one word in this language. What about your feeling?

79
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:24,166
JT: To me it was on the contrary, I tried to understand which made me search out the German literature.

80
00:19:24,167 --> 00:19:34,432
And I read Heinrich Kleist and Schiller and Goethe and when I came back as an American officer I went to a..

81
00:19:34,433 --> 00:19:42,399
I was stationed in Heidelberg so every year they had Schiller’s "Die Räuber" in the castle, so I was..

82
00:19:42,400 --> 00:20:01,399
I tried to understand, and so I read a lot of the German literature, you know to try and see, and unfortunately the humanities don’t necessarily humanize the individual.

83
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:08,399
IV: And yet the last question, I read also in your book, eh… in…

84
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:25,066
CM: (???)

85
00:20:25,067 --> 00:20:36,099
IV: Yeah, I read also in your book that you said the time, during your time in the camp in Flossenbürg you lost your believe in God. Maybe..

86
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:44,099
JT: Well, ah, I felt abandoned by God. And so frequently I’m asked the same question.

87
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:50,999
Ah, there, there are two questions invariably that I’m asked is: “Do you hate the Germans?”

88
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:56,999
And the other question, invariably, is “do you believe in God or not?”.

89
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:05,999
So, ah, I… my answer’s been I don’t hate the Germans and ah…

90
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:22,999
I left God in Flossenbürg, because when I saw, and I thought about it, how children, little infants were smashed against the wall, or used for target practice..

91
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:30,066
What did.. what kind of sin did they commit, and so where was God?

92
00:21:30,067 --> 00:21:42,166
Who is supposed to be omniscient and, ah, and to me that, ah, made me not a believer.

93
00:21:42,167 --> 00:21:57,066
I don’t, I.. I.. it’s a personal kind of feeling, I have, some people have forgiven God, I.. have questions about it.

94
00:21:57,067 --> 00:22:04,666
IV: Ok. Is there anything you think, what would be important for you to say.

95
00:22:04,667 --> 00:22:15,266
Maybe some topics we didn’t mention, or… yeah, maybe, and I still have, maybe I also have one more question.

96
00:22:15,267 --> 00:22:25,066
And this one will be, what was the most terrible, the most sad, the most cruel, terrible thing here in Flossenbürg, in this camp.

97
00:22:25,067 --> 00:22:32,432
Or what was special, maybe different to other camps here.

98
00:22:32,433 --> 00:22:41,999
JT: Special about Flossenbürg, you know… ah…

99
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:56,799
Well, you know, one of the things that, you know, when I was a geologist in the jungle of Venezuela.

100
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:12,532
I had an image of the Appellplatz, on a Sunday… and a pile of people were lying on top of each other.

101
00:23:12,533 --> 00:23:22,399
And a… on the bottom was a Muselmann with a piece of bread,

102
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:30,132
and everybody was trying to get to that Muselmann’s piece of bread.

103
00:23:30,133 --> 00:23:41,599
And the image of that came back to me many years later, of all places in the jungle of Venezuela.

104
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:54,332
And the thought was “how has the human being been reduced to such a state where this was possible?”

105
00:23:54,333 --> 00:24:06,166
And so that made me wonder about what, how thin, the veneer of civilization is.

106
00:24:06,167 --> 00:24:15,999
And how easily it’s stripped away, and we become… reduced to such a state.

107
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:23,899
And that is, I think.. a quintessential memory of Flossenbürg.

108
00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:36,999
IV: Ok. Thank you. Ein bisschen tiefer. Ok so do you need a question or you can just start?

109
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,599
JT: Well, a, a, a.. a question is better.

110
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,899
IV: Ok… thinking back at this time here in Flossenbürg,

111
00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:51,532
what do you think, what really is going through your mind, what do you think is important?

112
00:24:51,533 --> 00:25:03,199
JT: Well, what is important is the fact, ah, that we are quickly disappearing, you know, even though I was one of the youngest here..

113
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:25,399
I’m, you know, 77 years old, and you wonder, ah… we carry a memory with us, a.. a memory of events that, ah, very difficult to convey to others in, in the, in this true essence, you know?

114
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:37,666
So what will happen once we're gone, and how is memory, our memory transmitted to future generations,

115
00:25:37,667 --> 00:25:49,666
is something that I frequently think about and whether, ah.. as the political climate in various places changes,

116
00:25:49,667 --> 00:25:55,966
what happens to all of this, you know, how will it be carried forward?

117
00:25:55,967 --> 00:26:02,632
Because this is.. unprecedented, what happened.

118
00:26:02,633 --> 00:26:08,999
It’s almost beyond description.. not almost, it is beyond.

119
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:22,799
And it’s a struggle trying to convey this to the future, and I hope that the young people come and learn.

120
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:23,166
IV: Ok?

121
00:26:23,167 --> 00:26:26,499
JT: Ok.

122
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:33,166
IV: A little bit f., ten steps more. So that you can't see me anymore. Ok.

123
00:26:33,167 --> 00:26:35,999
CM: Soll ich im Tele dahin?

124
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:41,999
IV: Eh, ja einmal, machen wir einmal, guck mal wie's ausschaut. Just a moment.

125
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,166
CM: Schaut gut aus, aber dann kann er noch ein Stück weiter hinter.

126
00:26:45,167 --> 00:26:54,999
IV: Ja. Ok. Five more, you can go five more steps. Ok.

127
00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,499
CM: Ein Moment noch.

128
00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:02,666
Ja läuft.

129
00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:10,032
IV: Ok.

130
00:27:10,033 --> 00:27:15,299
CM: Oh, jetzt seh' ich ihn nimmer. Stopp mal, der ist am Geländer links.

131
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,867
IV: Dann geht's da eben erst los.