1 00:00:00,033 --> 00:00:06,132 IV: Even though it is impolite, I am going to take another cough drop so that my... 2 00:00:06,133 --> 00:00:07,332 LW: not impolite. 3 00:00:07,333 --> 00:00:16,432 IV: So that I don't cough into...cell phones off? All, just in case... 4 00:00:16,433 --> 00:00:19,666 LW: Mine is not turned off. I can do that. 5 00:00:19,667 --> 00:00:36,432 IV: Yes, it would be good to turn it off completely because otherwise there is a disruptive sound, even if it doesn't ring. 6 00:00:36,433 --> 00:00:45,432 LW: So... 7 00:00:45,433 --> 00:00:51,499 IV: On Saturday we spoke with Mr. Nasch and interviewed him. 8 00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:53,732 Good, Mr. Weintraub. Let's begin. 9 00:00:53,733 --> 00:00:57,899 We have planned to delve right into it, "in medias res" so to speak. 10 00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:03,532 You came to Flossenbürg on a transport from Groß-Rosen. 11 00:01:03,533 --> 00:01:08,199 Why don't you start there, with your memories, what you remember. 12 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:13,166 Perhaps the transport first and how you got there, what you knew about Flossenbürg. 13 00:01:13,167 --> 00:01:24,799 LW: After the long winter in Groß-Rosen, that is, in an external commando of Groß-Rosen, and there were many, 14 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,866 the last one I was in was in Dörnhau. 15 00:01:28,867 --> 00:01:43,499 We were collected in February and, it was mid-February, we traveled by foot. 16 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:49,499 And it was, it is correct to call it a death march. 17 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:57,199 Of course as always without an explanation, why and where to, just out of the barracks. 18 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,266 We didn't have any luggage, just the clothes we had on, nothing else. 19 00:02:04,267 --> 00:02:20,199 And we were a huge column, the image imprinted in my mind is of white. 20 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,999 It was the second half of February. Snow. 21 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:33,999 And I...in front an endless line of dots, people. 22 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,599 And in back exactly the same. 23 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,799 Must have been a few thousand people 24 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,066 Once in a while a shot was heard. 25 00:02:45,067 --> 00:02:47,332 Head turned away. 26 00:02:47,333 --> 00:02:55,132 A soldier with a gun, someone had fallen down and was not able to walk. 27 00:02:55,133 --> 00:02:58,499 And they gave him the coup de grace and left him there. 28 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:06,332 Then, some distanc apart, soldiers in green uniforms. 29 00:03:06,333 --> 00:03:12,666 It was hard to say what rank they were, whether it was SS or Wehrmacht. 30 00:03:12,667 --> 00:03:18,799 We couldn't tell the difference, with German shepherds. 31 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,466 Also vivid in my memory is how we were crowded into a barn in the evening, stuffed full. 32 00:03:25,467 --> 00:03:33,266 And after two nights and on the third day we arrived at the station. 33 00:03:33,267 --> 00:03:39,966 I am certain that it was Görlitz, today Zgorzelec. 34 00:03:39,967 --> 00:03:51,866 And in the train. The train ride that for me, I can't describe how long that was. 35 00:03:51,867 --> 00:03:57,766 But the whole time no food, no drink, were given nothing, we could grab a little snow... 36 00:03:57,767 --> 00:04:03,232 to moisten our lips and the mouth, so dried up. 37 00:04:03,233 --> 00:04:11,332 One image stays in my memory that someone took me into their arms and comforted me a bit. 38 00:04:11,333 --> 00:04:17,266 I must have been totally exhausted and at the end of my rope. 39 00:04:17,267 --> 00:04:23,699 And what remains is the name Nikolaj or Nikolai, a Russian. 40 00:04:23,700 --> 00:04:29,666 And we were together until Flossenbürg. 41 00:04:29,667 --> 00:04:31,299 When eh... 42 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:41,499 One explanation for my exhaustion from this brief time, after just a few days of death march, may have been 43 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:51,966 that I had come to Groß-Rosen from Auschwitz-Birkenau, after a short stay there. 44 00:04:51,967 --> 00:05:02,666 But that was after almost five years of starving and doing hard labor in the LItzmannstadt ghetto on the territory of the Lodz ghetto. 45 00:05:02,667 --> 00:05:12,199 A short digression: I never say "Ghetto in Lodz," because Lodz was a peaceful, normal city, there was never a ghetto there. 46 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:25,532 But in the city of Litzmannstadt, the name given to Lodz, in late 1939, named after General Litzmannstadt from the First World War. 47 00:05:25,533 --> 00:05:40,166 That is how I arrived in Flossenbürg and I can perhaps be forgiven, that I kept in my memory so few details of my stay here. 48 00:05:40,167 --> 00:05:44,866 But I arrived nearly unconscious. 49 00:05:44,867 --> 00:05:50,232 I have no memory of the path from the station into the camp. 50 00:05:50,233 --> 00:05:54,966 No memory of the shower, the clothes. 51 00:05:54,967 --> 00:06:02,899 But I have a few images of the barracks and from the everyday life. 52 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:13,166 And the unpleasantness of waking up with a cold foot in my face. 53 00:06:13,167 --> 00:06:22,232 Because we were, I know this now, and I always try to stress what I remember 54 00:06:22,233 --> 00:06:24,599 as opposed to what I learned later. 55 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:29,132 I try not to mix them, to keep them apart. 56 00:06:29,133 --> 00:06:37,966 Since to speak today with the knowledge of what I know today, as if it were then is not correct, would not be honest. 57 00:06:37,967 --> 00:06:43,832 We laid two on a bunk and two in both directions. 58 00:06:43,833 --> 00:06:49,199 So two with knees, my upper body and vice versa. 59 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:55,232 Me, with my feet on the other two prisoners. 60 00:06:55,233 --> 00:07:03,366 And mornings, the roll call, out of sleep...the feverish unrestless sleep. 61 00:07:03,367 --> 00:07:09,366 Pile of the dead at the entrance. 62 00:07:09,367 --> 00:07:18,532 I still see it clearly in front of me, how they lay there, the dead prisoners, so that the number at the count would be correct. 63 00:07:18,533 --> 00:07:28,999 Then the endless...today I have a clear memory. I found it to be endless. 64 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:39,599 It was perhaps a few minutes, half an hour, but for us, with hardly any clothing, it was, after all, late February. 65 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:54,032 According to a paper from Bad Arolsen that I received in Göttingen in the 1950s, it says that I was registered, admitted to Flossenbürg, on February 25. 66 00:07:54,033 --> 00:07:58,866 Also a question of nomenclature, a human being is admitted. 67 00:07:58,867 --> 00:08:10,132 And transported to Offenburg on March 22. 68 00:08:10,133 --> 00:08:28,966 I...the smell was very strong, I still have a certain purely physical sensory perception of smells and touch, 69 00:08:28,967 --> 00:08:33,032 of crowdedness, of lying on the bunk, four of us. 70 00:08:33,033 --> 00:08:43,999 And being woken up, pushed out, it was still night, was dark, from dawn, lined up. 71 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,299 After we were counted, we had nothing to do. 72 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:56,732 We were not included in the work deployment because we were under quarantine. 73 00:08:56,733 --> 00:09:08,132 It was cold and a...one could indeed call it an apocalyptic image, it could have been drawn by Bruegel. 74 00:09:08,133 --> 00:09:15,166 It was cold, we snuggled up to each other, on the large roll call grounds. 75 00:09:15,167 --> 00:09:26,266 New ones joined us, new ones and the image of several hundred people, snuggling up to one another, to warm each other. 76 00:09:26,267 --> 00:09:40,766 A process took place such that the people who were at the core of this group wanted to get out, but they were close to suffocating, it was too crowded, they wanted out. 77 00:09:40,767 --> 00:09:46,132 And those on the outer layer, their backs were cold, they wanted to get in. 78 00:09:46,133 --> 00:09:58,166 so that they had other bodies on all sides, the biological temperature of 37 or 36 can radiate a certain amount of heat. 79 00:09:58,167 --> 00:10:03,599 So like an ant hill that moves across the roll call grounds. 80 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:14,499 If you close your eyes and can imagine this, that is what is ingrained in my mind. 81 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:30,732 When, why and how we were moved on after these few weeks? It was probably because the second front had come closer. 82 00:10:30,733 --> 00:10:36,099 IV: Do you have more memories...You were in the quarantine block. 83 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:36,499 LW: Yes. 84 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:45,566 IV: You didn't work. Do you have memories of the food, the treatment by the SS or the people who were there. 85 00:10:45,567 --> 00:10:56,299 LW: No, I have only the image of sunshine and hills in the distance, probably above the main building. 86 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:57,899 in this direction. 87 00:10:57,900 --> 00:11:12,932 I can only explain it, that I was really physically drained, that my ability to perceive things was very limited. 88 00:11:12,933 --> 00:11:21,499 And that is why only a few images were ingrained in my memory. 89 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:27,632 I have...perhaps we will discuss it. 90 00:11:27,633 --> 00:11:49,232 After arriving in Auschwitz-Birkenau, when we were pushed out of the cattle car, these strange figures were standing there in pajamas, white and blue striped prisoner uniforms. 91 00:11:49,233 --> 00:11:53,599 It was strange for us that these people were standing around in their pajamas. 92 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,832 And I just yelled "out, out, quickly, quickly." 93 00:11:57,833 --> 00:12:04,832 And I saw there in the corner of my eye the fence with white isolators. 94 00:12:04,833 --> 00:12:14,366 I had worked in the ghetto as an electrician and I understood: isolator, so electrical current on a fence. 95 00:12:14,367 --> 00:12:19,299 Electrical...like a vertical electrical chair. 96 00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:22,999 Where did we go? 97 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:30,066 The prestory is that we were all led astray, swindled. 98 00:12:30,067 --> 00:12:39,499 Hans Biebow, I heard it myself, he promised that we would be moved away from the front, for our own security. 99 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:44,066 We would be given food along the way, we could take everything with us that we needed. 100 00:12:44,067 --> 00:12:49,432 Without furniture, of course, or dishes, kitchen appliances. 101 00:12:49,433 --> 00:12:51,932 And we would be brought to safety. 102 00:12:51,933 --> 00:13:02,332 And I got off the wagon, overcrowded with people, said to my mother and my four...three sisters "We'll see each other inside." 103 00:13:02,333 --> 00:13:05,999 And then with my own eyes...I saw what was inside. 104 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:12,666 Something happened to me that I can only describe as shock. 105 00:13:12,667 --> 00:13:21,499 I entered into a condition, almost as if...in medicine it's called catatonia or autistic, like a shell closing. 106 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:31,999 My physical, bodily abilities were intact, everything. 107 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,666 I heard, I saw, I fulfilled orders. 108 00:13:36,667 --> 00:13:46,132 But my brain cortex was, if not turned off, then very limited in its activity. 109 00:13:46,133 --> 00:13:57,566 So that I have hardly any memories of having spoken to anyone, after climbing the ramp in Birkenau up to the liberation. 110 00:13:57,567 --> 00:14:06,332 Just a few isolated words, but no...no friendships, no memories of a face. 111 00:14:06,333 --> 00:14:07,899 One or two exceptions. 112 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:14,232 So that might explain why I kept so little. 113 00:14:14,233 --> 00:14:19,966 IV: Do you think that was a defense mechanism... 114 00:14:19,967 --> 00:14:21,366 LW: That's true. 115 00:14:21,367 --> 00:14:28,766 Later, as a doctor, I am able to explain it perhaps as a self-preservation reaction. 116 00:14:28,767 --> 00:14:42,299 To protect myself from the terrible, from the gruesome, to function only as a physical collection of tissue. 117 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:55,666 But if I had been conscious of what was happening around me and with me, then I would probably have gone nuts and not have withstood it. 118 00:14:55,667 --> 00:15:03,999 My physical power of resistance would be so broken that I would suffer physically from it as well. 119 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:14,866 And that did happen, that people were simply unable to eat anymore, starved and quickly collapsed, so that could be right, that that is the explanation. 120 00:15:14,867 --> 00:15:23,999 And that is not an apology, but an attempt at explaining why I remember so little from Flossenbürg. 121 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:37,132 When I look back on the time in the ghetto, from this short time in Birkenau, I have many more clear images and memories and a series of images from this time. 122 00:15:37,133 --> 00:15:43,999 We left Flossenbürg in passenger trains, I think. 123 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:54,299 No, I am not sure, but after the external commando of the Natzweiler concentration camp we arrived in Offenburg. 124 00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:59,932 That was the last twitches of the Third Reich. 125 00:15:59,933 --> 00:16:03,132 I didn't realize that at that time. 126 00:16:03,133 --> 00:16:12,799 But it wasn't so well organized, it was a bit of chaos, a little disorder and sloppiness. 127 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:21,499 We were housed in a building,maybe a school building or an empty normal building, with many levels. 128 00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,332 And I have a few memories of that. 129 00:16:25,333 --> 00:16:28,899 Besides one very drastic event. 130 00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:36,999 I was supposed to wash the clothes of the guard staff. 131 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:48,966 And probably in a simple bathroom in a bathtub, hot water, the air foggy from the steam of the hot water. 132 00:16:48,967 --> 00:16:55,466 And I see myself in a feverish condition, half conscious. 133 00:16:55,467 --> 00:17:05,132 Like...like in a fever, washing these clothes and I must have done something wrong. 134 00:17:05,133 --> 00:17:14,932 And I was sentenced to 25 beatings on my bare bottom. 135 00:17:14,933 --> 00:17:17,532 Spread over a trestle. 136 00:17:17,533 --> 00:17:26,132 My arms clasped down in front and my legs in back, pants down and I had to count. 137 00:17:26,133 --> 00:17:37,999 It was a rubber pipe...hose..elastic but filled with sand to make thie impact stronger. 138 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,666 So that it weighs more. 139 00:17:39,667 --> 00:17:45,532 I was able to count along to eight and then it was over, I was gone. 140 00:17:45,533 --> 00:17:58,666 And my memory is that for the next few days I was only able to lie on my stomach, couldn't lie on my back. 141 00:17:58,667 --> 00:18:06,332 We also didn't do any work in Offenburg, it was also just a transport container. 142 00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:12,932 They probably didn't know what to do with us at this time. 143 00:18:12,933 --> 00:18:22,399 Then one day we were called out of the...no not beds...we were lying on the ground. 144 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:30,966 Collected is the right word, to the station and this time it was definitely passenger trains. 145 00:18:30,967 --> 00:18:35,866 We had only traveled for a few hours when airplanes arrived. 146 00:18:35,867 --> 00:18:43,532 We heard explosions and then it was quiet and we stood still. 147 00:18:43,533 --> 00:19:00,932 After a while we were pushed out of the wagons and into the woods...chased. Up the hill, down the hill. 148 00:19:00,933 --> 00:19:02,699 That was the Black Forest. 149 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,199 That was just beyond Donaueschingen. 150 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:16,466 After a few hours, I think it was hours, we dragged ourselves, we had formed a group. 151 00:19:16,467 --> 00:19:25,266 Coincidentally, I don't know why, I didn't know them, I was the youngest, five young people, a bit older than me. 152 00:19:25,267 --> 00:19:31,299 Had fallen behind a bit, fallen behind, were so weak. 153 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:39,466 And all of a sudden the main group had disappeared, was out of our sight, beyond our vision. 154 00:19:39,467 --> 00:19:47,332 And the guard was gone too and then we saw a few pieces of uniform lying in the bushes. 155 00:19:47,333 --> 00:19:49,966 Jacket, hats with the SS sign. 156 00:19:49,967 --> 00:19:59,732 Without many words we looked at each other and ran into the bushes and squatted there and waited and waited. 157 00:19:59,733 --> 00:20:05,166 Towards late afternoon, it was starting to turn gray, we heard shots again. 158 00:20:05,167 --> 00:20:11,766 And since I was so light then, I weighed 35 kilos then, we looked for a tree. 159 00:20:11,767 --> 00:20:17,766 They helped me climb up, I climbed up and was able to look down into the valley. 160 00:20:17,767 --> 00:20:25,599 And I saw a locomotive from the left, we had come from the right, connected to the train. 161 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,999 And people, like little black dots, being pushed into the train. 162 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,766 And that was Alexander Laks, as I learned yesterday. 163 00:20:34,767 --> 00:20:38,132 He continued on to Immendingen, I think. 164 00:20:38,133 --> 00:20:41,499 I stayed in the bushes, the train departed. 165 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:49,432 We set off in the opposite direction of the train. 166 00:20:49,433 --> 00:21:02,032 It was difficult, constantly having to go through water, the whole night, but the Donau makes such curves, luckily not deep, so just wading through. 167 00:21:02,033 --> 00:21:06,032 Towards daybreak, we approached a country road. 168 00:21:06,033 --> 00:21:14,566 And there I saw clearly three uniforms coming towards us on bicycles. 169 00:21:14,567 --> 00:21:21,266 As they got closer, they curved away from us and we curved away from them. 170 00:21:21,267 --> 00:21:27,966 They were afraid of us and we were afraid of all uniforms, they were something hostile. 171 00:21:27,967 --> 00:21:38,299 And after a few hundred meters there was a clearing in the forest, and a a truck came towards us from behind a curve. 172 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:44,732 Something unfamiliar. A black face with a white head. 173 00:21:44,733 --> 00:21:48,032 Now I know that it was a turban on a machine gun. 174 00:21:48,033 --> 00:21:56,899 We were so scared that we...all jumped into the bushes and then we heard the shots. 175 00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,999 We came out with our hands up, moved towards them. 176 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:13,166 And showed the "KL" sewed in white onto the jacket, the two letters "KL" and pointed to our heads. 177 00:22:13,167 --> 00:22:24,266 This part had been cut out with a haircutter, to identify us as prisoners so that if someone fled they would be immediately visible. 178 00:22:24,267 --> 00:22:29,299 So our head was not totally shaved, just in parts. 179 00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:36,566 But in the middle the hair had been carefully removed with a haircutter. 180 00:22:36,567 --> 00:22:46,166 Then a tall soldier came towards us, in a different color uniform, brown, khaki colored, lighter. 181 00:22:46,167 --> 00:22:50,866 With a pistol in his hand and when we showed him this 182 00:22:50,867 --> 00:22:57,066 I can still see how he threw the pistol into the air and caught it with the left hand and said "Comment ça va?" 183 00:22:57,067 --> 00:23:02,332 And pointed with his thumb "go that way". That is where our... 184 00:23:02,333 --> 00:23:12,999 That was the moment of liberation, the actual liberation...because then I was no longer in captivity. 185 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,599 We went into the first best house, were so starving and thirsty. 186 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:26,832 Those scared...I see those people, not German faces, but huddled down and fearful. 187 00:23:26,833 --> 00:23:31,966 Something to drink, I don't think I ate anything. 188 00:23:31,967 --> 00:23:50,699 And then we continued on our way and after a few kilometers, just before Donaueschingen, we saw a large fast a horde of, now I know that they were foreign workers, with handcarts stuffed full of things. 189 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,266 We joined them, we were a group of five people. 190 00:23:55,267 --> 00:24:03,599 After Donauschingen, the city seemed totally empty, we didn't see any people. 191 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,799 They were probably hiding or didn't dare to come outside. 192 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:14,866 Then we saw the restaurant "Zur Sonne" and we went inside, no one there. 193 00:24:14,867 --> 00:24:33,266 Even back then, before I became a doctor, I had retained enough sense to know not to overeat. 194 00:24:33,267 --> 00:24:35,432 I found some flour in a cupboard. 195 00:24:35,433 --> 00:24:42,566 Added a little water to it, warmed it up, added a little salt and that is what we ate. 196 00:24:42,567 --> 00:24:49,432 I couldn't sleep, it was a feather bed, so soft and a duvet. 197 00:24:49,433 --> 00:24:55,099 I tried to fall asleep but whenever I woke up I had the feeling I was falling, falling. 198 00:24:55,100 --> 00:25:01,132 I had to lie on the ground before I could fully fall asleep. 199 00:25:01,133 --> 00:25:09,766 Later...what happened next, that is all later... 200 00:25:09,767 --> 00:25:20,999 Worth briefly mentioning perhaps that a few days later, most of them had gathered, and fled. 201 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:29,032 Because they had heard that in a village not far from Donaueschingen the Werewolf was active and had shot people. 202 00:25:29,033 --> 00:25:36,332 That had scared people, I didn't feel good, probably had caught a cold or gotten a fever. 203 00:25:36,333 --> 00:25:43,999 And asked where I could find a doctor. I was told to go to the French army doctor. 204 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,466 And he only asked me where I came from, I said "from the guesthouse 'Zur Sonne.'" 205 00:25:48,467 --> 00:25:50,666 "Aha, there were already to cases of typhus there." 206 00:25:50,667 --> 00:25:57,132 And referred me to the hospital in Donaueschingen to the typhus ward. 207 00:25:57,133 --> 00:26:02,932 I spent a few weeks there. 208 00:26:02,933 --> 00:26:07,566 The day of liberation was April 23. 209 00:26:07,567 --> 00:26:13,566 And freed from Mr. Brückner on the same day, I learned that it was a Monday. 210 00:26:13,567 --> 00:26:20,899 I knew it, didn't have any thoughts about researching which day of the week it was. 211 00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:26,666 But I knew the date. 212 00:26:26,667 --> 00:26:31,532 And, eh, after a few weeks, it was... 213 00:26:31,533 --> 00:26:38,999 That means, I was probably in this hospital for all of May because I was released in June. 214 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:45,866 And I stood in front of the gate of the hospital with my three things on my body. 215 00:26:45,867 --> 00:26:55,366 To add to this, when we arrived in Donaueschingen in the guesthouse "Zur Sonne," after we had eaten something, we looked for something to wear. 216 00:26:55,367 --> 00:26:59,966 We were still wearing the old torn-up clothes. 217 00:26:59,967 --> 00:27:11,532 We went into a few buildings, no people, I took a pair of pants, not even underwear, a pair of pants, socks, a pair of shoes and a jacket. 218 00:27:11,533 --> 00:27:19,332 Others stuffed themselves full, but it didn't occur to me to take more than I needed at the time. 219 00:27:19,333 --> 00:27:23,766 So I stood there the way I had arrived in the hospital, I stood there. 220 00:27:23,767 --> 00:27:37,366 And I don't know how, I can't remember, I learned that there was a group of former concentation camp prisoners in a nearby village. 221 00:27:37,367 --> 00:27:44,799 It was maybe ten, eleven kilometers away, I pretty much dragged myself there, so weak after being in the hospital. 222 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:55,899 And I arrived there, happy. This time the lucky fellow, not the unlucky one. They were just getting ready. 223 00:27:55,900 --> 00:28:01,399 They had all found bicycles and were planning to go to Bodensee, Lake Constance. 224 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:08,499 We had heard that there was a group there, someome there that would look after us. 225 00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:12,966 We didn't have any papers, no money, no ID, nothing. 226 00:28:12,967 --> 00:28:14,866 We were just there, the way we were. 227 00:28:14,867 --> 00:28:26,299 SInce I didn't have my own bike and wasn't in a condition to ride a bike, I was taken along either on the frame or on the bike rack all the way to the train. 228 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,932 Where was that, either Tuttlingen or Villingen. 229 00:28:29,933 --> 00:28:37,932 Arrived at the train and again: no ticket, no money. We just said "KZ". 230 00:28:37,933 --> 00:28:46,266 And the soldiers there, the guards and civil servants, German officials, looked passed us and didn't send us away. 231 00:28:46,267 --> 00:28:48,132 No ticket, on to the train. 232 00:28:48,133 --> 00:28:57,399 We arrived in Constance and then the new life began...not the new, the life. 233 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:06,166 IV: When you were freed...what was that like, do you remember good feelings. What was that like for you? 234 00:29:06,167 --> 00:29:13,332 Was it like "Now I survived, I did it" or did it not really register amidst all the chaos? 235 00:29:13,333 --> 00:29:19,166 Can you remember a little how you were? At some point it was clear: The Nazis are gone. 236 00:29:19,167 --> 00:29:25,932 LW: Few events stirred me. 237 00:29:25,933 --> 00:29:39,066 And that probably shows what mental state I was in, what was hidden inside me that had come to the surface. 238 00:29:39,067 --> 00:29:54,632 Because right after the liberation in this Donaueschingen group or right before I have this image that two people hanged themselves. 239 00:29:54,633 --> 00:30:03,999 It may have been SS men, and one might say they were getting it back. 240 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,866 And that affected me very badly and almost revolted me. 241 00:30:09,867 --> 00:30:13,599 We were going to be the same way, the same as them. 242 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:19,099 If we do the same that they did to us, then are we any better? 243 00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:26,866 That was the first awakening of a consciousness, of finding myself in a new present. 244 00:30:26,867 --> 00:30:32,566 And I can't do to them what was done to us, because then I am not any better. 245 00:30:32,567 --> 00:30:43,666 But I don't want to be like that. And this was a clear image that I had, it was like a reflex: revenge. 246 00:30:43,667 --> 00:30:57,332 I heard from others too that in Birkenau, when Rumkowski, the Jewish elder, arrived there, that the people nearly tore him to pieces. 247 00:30:57,333 --> 00:31:06,099 And it happened to others too, like the police, ghetto police, Jewish police were also killed. 248 00:31:06,100 --> 00:31:07,766 These things happened. 249 00:31:07,767 --> 00:31:15,132 to their own but mostly against the German SS men. 250 00:31:15,133 --> 00:31:24,032 That was one of my first conscious realizations after liberation. 251 00:31:24,033 --> 00:31:30,832 And from this moment on I thought about it: revenge. 252 00:31:30,833 --> 00:31:46,999 I mentioned this yesterday in a talk with young people because they were Christian youth, to think about the world: Revenge, punishment. 253 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,866 Is punishment also revenge? Or is revenge also a punishment? 254 00:31:52,867 --> 00:32:04,832 And secondly: Perpetrator. Should the perpetrator be punished if he acted according to the prevailing laws at the time? 255 00:32:04,833 --> 00:32:16,999 If the laws that applied in that country, in this governance, were legal but in the general understanding were criminal? 256 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:24,866 So those are complicated thoughts about criticism and morality. 257 00:32:24,867 --> 00:32:35,266 Now it is easier, because through the United Nations we have a code for human rights, guidelines. 258 00:32:35,267 --> 00:32:52,366 So that a perpetrator can no longer say "I only carried out...orders. It was not my own initiative, my intention, but I had to carry out the orders." 259 00:32:52,367 --> 00:33:02,232 Now there are guidelines, where one has to say: "Can I do this, regardless of the order? Is it right?" 260 00:33:02,233 --> 00:33:09,732 And can appeal to "No, the universal human rights say that is not good." 261 00:33:09,733 --> 00:33:14,332 My brother-in-law was president of the highest court in Cologne. 262 00:33:14,333 --> 00:33:17,966 IV: I have to interrupt here because the cassette is full. 263 00:33:17,967 --> 00:33:21,067 LW: OK