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IV: Many people who came here, they've been -

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SI: Historically, what would you want to know?

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I came here the first time and quite frankly, I'm regretting coming

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because memories come back that I don't want to have back.

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I have them - but as the doors said, by this:

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I left Flossenbürg but Flossenbürg did not leave me.

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This is a truth that is forever inscribed in us.

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I came here for one reason,

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because I was going to Poland to say goodbye to my parents where they were shot.

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And Anna Andlauer was probably one of the nicest people and very persistent,

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sort of talked me into coming and

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I wanted also Susan to see how and where I was

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because she's young, she's American, she's not Jewish.

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She didn't know or she didn't - or she heard but didn't see of the pain we went through.

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So.. that's why I came but, ah, it's, it will be a great pleasure leaving.

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Never to come back.

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IV: Never to come back?

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SI: No. No.

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IV: Okay, maybe you can tell us a little bit about your history, where you grow up.

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SI: I was born in Krakau, Poland, I have a family, the youngest of six children.

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We lived in Krakau on Kasimir, Kazimierz, which was 99% Jewish, maybe 95% Jewish.

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I had a very good childhood, till September 7th 1939.

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When the German army marched in and I stopped being a child and began to grow up.

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Because the minute, they came into Krakau, trouble started for the Jews.

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When the Jewish holidays, I think, either Yom Kippur,

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when they started killing and -{coughs} excuse me - beating people.

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And one time, they came from, they made the house - the hourse search and they take everything of value.

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Whether silver or gold, anything, any was of value, nice.

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Ah, Esszeug, you know, spoons, knives, forks.

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And we had sort of a middle class, upper middle class lives. 

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So, they cleaned everything they could.

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And then Krakau supposed to have been judenrein end of '39.

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So my father packed us in and we went to a city called Tarnow.

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And then, and from then on, it got worse and worse and worse till they,

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and this I don't remember, they took us to be, ah, tested for our Untermenschlichkeit.

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I guess, measured and weighed and ah, whatever needed, I don't remember that, ah, Jenis, professor, brought that to my attention.

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And then, three months later, my parents, my two siblings where shot in Tarnow, Poland.

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Ah, I and, my brother and I run, we lived on the Partère.

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And I run with my brother and my two sisters, had the Ausweis, stamps, that they apparantly were to live.

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Everybody else was shot.

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I believe, if I, my numbers are correct, there were about 10.000 Jews killed that day in Tarnow.

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And of course then it got from bad to worse to worse, then.

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The ghetto came about, we moved in the Ghetto, my two sisters, my brother and I.

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Not together because there was no room to live together.

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And one of my sisters went on arische Papiere, but she was captured and killed.

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My brother and sister were taken, I believe to Auschwitz, 

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When the last - what we called "Action", die Aktion. 

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I on the other hand, got a job as a Kutscher to the ahm, Oberscharführer Blacher, who's the head of the Ghetto.

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I was his Kutscher.

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So I stayed there, I was the last Jew to leave Tarnow.

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We went to Płaszów. Płaszów was not good for me and I saw kids,

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the minute you saw children around you, you know they were take steps and kill them off.

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So I volunteered to go to a place called Mielec.

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This was a camp where they produced Heinkel, bomber planes.

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And we stayed there till the Russians started coming.

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They took us from there to Wieliczka.

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Aah, Wieliczka, we didn't stay very long because they, they were unable to build the factory that they wanted.

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And they sent us by train - Wieliczka - Auschwitz.

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Auschwitz they didn't take us out of the train because apparently, they had a little uprising there and they didn't want any problems.

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So, they sent us on to Flossenbürg.

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We came here, we stayed in the - what is it called - isolation barracks.

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For one week, stark naked, as we were created, we came out of our mothers.

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They kept us from morning to night outdoors.

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In the evening we went to the barracks, which had nothing, not even straw to sleep on, just wood.

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And I think we were in the barracks from eight in the evening to four or five o'clock in the morning.

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IV: What time of year was it?

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SI: I, I believe, I don't know whether I'm right or not, I believe it was either late spring or early fall.

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It was very cold, it was bittercold.

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The fortune I think for me and a lot of my fellows, was that we were young.

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Some of the younger people can withstand.

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Those who were older - I mean older, end of 30s and up - died.

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Then they took us out, they registered us, and I had a problem.

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The German turned on us, they always asked "Mother's maiden name?"

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My mother's maiden name was Wolf.

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The Oberscharführer that entered the books, didn't like that - "He was Wolf?" 

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"I didn't know it." And my mother's gone - so he asked me "Bist du Jude?"

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So whatever I answered, there's no good. When I say no, it's no good.

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If I say Ja, ist auch nicht schlecht. So I said: "Ich weiß nicht."

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So he asked me how old I was.

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And I bluffed and I tried to tell him that I'm 18 but I was - I have a picture.

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When I was liberated, I was still very short.

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And they put me on the Jugendblock which at that time - see, this was my liberation.

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CM: Can you show it to the camera?

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SI: I was liberated not far from there and I stayed with the American army.

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And ah, then I went to Indersdorf, I wasn't there very long, I went to Konstanz at Bodensee.

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I ended up in Paris.

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Paris - Canada, Canada - States.

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So since '49, I'm in the States.

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IV: So maybe, let's go a little bit back to past. So, for you remember very clearly to -

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SI: Unfortunately, yes.

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IV: to talk about some details.

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SI: Jah.

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IV: So, ah, you said, in Plaszow, you've been the Kutscher of -

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SI: No, in Tarnow.

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IV: In Tarnow. You've been the Kutscher.

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SI: Yeah.

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IV: And then you went to Plaszow.

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SI: To Plaszow, when they finished with the ghetto.

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We cleaned up the ghetto. The 150 Jews and I, 149 Jews and I, we cleaned up the ghetto.

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I had nothing to do with the clean-up because I was driving the horses and him. And his family.

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When they liquidated, they shipped us on to Plaszow. But I didn't stay very long.

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IV: Can you remember how was the situation in Plaszow for the people?

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SI: Terrible, terrible. I was going, ah, I had they warned that my leg from my horse stepping on me and I couldn't go to work.

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So the Jewish police grabbed me and were taking me to be punished.

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Fortunately for me, Blacher was there.

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And saw me coming with the police and said "Was - was machst du denn da?"

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So I told him: "Sie wissen doch, dass das Pferd mir auf den Fuß getreten hat."

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"Oh, ja ja, gehen los." And he sent me back.

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If not, I wouldn't have survived the beating that the SS applied to the others.

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And that was my luck and then, after that I volunteered and I escaped Płaszów.

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Because the lice were eating me.

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Young people were around, young children, and the moment they are around you knew - no good.

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At least in my mind, I knew - I don't want to stay.

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So I volunteered as I said, I went, nobody knew where we were going to.

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Ah, we thought we were going to death but I didn't care where we went.

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I just want to get out of Płaszów.

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IV: And how did you - you - you had to walk or they put you on transport?

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SI: On transport on freight trains. And ah, could quite a while, apparently. Mielec is not too far from Krakau-Płaszów.

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But it took quite a, quite a couple of nights, quite couple of days to get there.

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They unloaded us, they put us into barracks that they had prepared and we stayed in.

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Oh, there were people already there, from other camps called Budzyń.

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And these were mostly Jewish prisoners of war but, ah, Jews were not treated as prisoners of war, they were Jews. So.

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We were there, I don't know, I cannot remember the length of time.

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IV: Milic was kind of -

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SI: Mielec.

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IV: Arbeitslager, Arbeitslager. You had to work -

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SI: Oh ja, everybody had to work. There was no prisoner that didn't work there.

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Everybody, I worked in a "Halle", with a, I used to work in a bomber, the tanks, the fuel tanks,

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where they had to have shooting, ah, explosives, neets, I don't know how I'd say in German, the Nieten.

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IV: Nieten, yeah.

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SI: And we worked with the Hartkolbe and they exploded, self-exploded in the bag.

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That was my job at night, one week night, one week days.

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IV: So you remember about the food, the housing, how you -

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SI: The food, the housing. I mean, look.

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Considering, the barracks were not bad, as opposed to Flossenbürg at the end, or Płaszów, the few weeks I was there.

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Food was miserable, food, like everywhere else but it wasn't as bad as you got here at the end.

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Or as bad as Płaszów was. But it was survivable.

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They treated us halfly decent because we sort of helped them produce the plane. So.

139
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And we worked with a lot of Polish people and a lot of German civilians.

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You know, engineers, technicians, and so on. So.

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It was not as bad as other camps and from there on, unfortunately, they brought us here.

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IV: Can you remember the transport from there to Flossenbürg?

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SI: Sure I remember the transport.

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IV: Maybe you can tell us a little bit about it.

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SI: Well, when we left Mielec, we were going, ah, well, within the reason, normally, 60-70 people in the car.

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And German women and children were begging to come with us because they were afraid of the Russians.

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The Germans said: "No, das ist nur für Häftlinge." They said.

148
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So we left and we went through Wieliczka.

149
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Wieliczka, we were maybe two weeks, three weeks.

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We began to prepare in the mine, the work that we did in Mielec.

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But I guess it wasn't feasible.

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Between the Russians coming and taking all the stuff down, they decided "No", and they sent us on to Auschwitz, to Flossenbürg.

153
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IV: And then you, you went by train -

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SI: By train, by train.

155
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We did, the only march I had on foot, a long march, was from Schwarzenfeld on to the liberation.

156
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Those was the longest march.

157
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IV: And maybe can you tell a little bit about the transport to Flossenbürg. How many people were situated -

158
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SI: From, from, from Wieliczka there were already many people, 60, 70, 80 people in a car. Maybe more.

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They took us in, as a matter of fact, we were, on the train, the one guy through the, ah, little window, so-called windows, whatever it was,

160
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ah, asked the Polish railroad worker: "What does it say on the car? Where are we being shipped?"

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He said, he answered in Polish: "To death." That was that, so.

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And we came to, fortunately for us, to Auschwitz, where they couldn't take care of us, either gas chambers or anything else, they sent us on.

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And we ended up in Flossenbürg. Again, the ride was very long. Very long.

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Ah, they stopped every 20, 30 kilometres, put us on the side, so the German miliary trains could go by, to the front.

165
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But after a while we came here, unloaded, and I cannot find the station here.

166
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And, I remember the reception as, as clearly as it was yesterday.

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The guards with the sheperds, with the dogs, all dogs barking, all Germans screaming.

168
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And we were, for one thing, we were sitting in the train for about a week, two, I don't know how long.

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Coming off the train was like, and all of a sudden, here these, these people, the guns, the dogs.

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And they walked us here, to Flossenbürg. And they kept us then in this isolation for a week.

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IV: And in the beginning, you had to go the this Häftlingsbad -

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SI: Ja, ja, ja.

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IV: Do you remember, maybe try to -

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SI: Yeah, we went, after the isolation, they took us to baths, stark naked as we were and they gave us uniforms.

175
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And shirts and, I don't remember if underwear, I don't remember, wooden clogs, wooden shoes.

176
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And then they assigned, they registered us.

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And they assigned me to the block 19, it was Jugendblock.

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At first, it wasn't too bad, they kept the promise at least,

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they told us we will get extra bread and extra soups which we got for a month or two.

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Then our situation got bad, worse. They had more prisoners coming in.

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They had the Polish prisoners coming in, that had the uprising in Warsaw.

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They had other people coming in, you know, you committed a crime as a labourer or you flirted with a girl, whatever it was, so, they brought them here to.

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So, the barrack got tighter and tighter.

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They brought Italian kids whose families were, ah, with me slept on my Pritsche.

185
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A young boy, an Italian boy whose father was a general.

186
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And his division surrendered or went over to the allies.

187
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So the rest of his whole family and he came to Flossenbürg.

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He did not survive.

189
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Cause as we talked about, Flossenbürg was very cold.

190
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Barracks were certainly not heated and you didn't have much of a cover. So.

191
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He lived about two months. He died right on the bed.

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IV: And in day-time, you had to work -

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SI: We had to work six days a week, sometimes seven if they decided that we are to carry stones from one place to another.

194
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They made us work on Sunday.

195
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But we had to work six days a week.

196
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I was fortunate enough, I didn't work in the quarry, we worked the assembly, wing assembly for Messerschmitt. So.

197
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We were dry and not too bad. We were so-called technicians, we knew the job, I mean, so.

198
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IV: Because you already had -

199
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SI: Had, that's right, in Mielec.

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IV: In Mielec. This kind of work... And had also some of the young people, of the youth block, they had to work in the quarry or - ?

201
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SI: I don't, I couldn't tell you, I don't remember.

202
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Although I spoke to a Czech man, now, with a picture, who was a couple of years older than I, he was on the block.

203
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And he said, he worked in the quarry, so it's possible.

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I don't know, I had to stay with my group to march out to the halls here to -

205
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:51,666
IV: So, how have you been treated here, in your block, the Blockälteste, the Kapos?

206
00:17:51,667 --> 00:18:00,266
SI: The Blockälteste was a criminal, and they know the name, I don't, I didn't even know his name.

207
00:18:00,267 --> 00:18:04,932
He was called Herr Blockältester. Was old, grey-headed man.

208
00:18:04,933 --> 00:18:11,466
And his assistant as a Blockälteste was a nice, young Czech man.

209
00:18:11,467 --> 00:18:15,966
I had the misfortune of staying on the German side.

210
00:18:15,967 --> 00:18:19,832
So if any infraction, he slapped you around and beat you, kicked you.

211
00:18:19,833 --> 00:18:22,632
We stood on the Appellplatz, being counted.

212
00:18:22,633 --> 00:18:34,166
If God forbid, we were miscounted and they thought that somebody ran away, which was almost impossible, ah, we got, we could stand on the Appellplatz for a whole night.

213
00:18:34,167 --> 00:18:40,666
First, he counted, then the Germans came to count and nochmals and nochmals.

214
00:18:40,667 --> 00:18:47,166
And then, maybe by two o'clock they let us in and by five o'clock, we had to go back to work.

215
00:18:47,167 --> 00:18:53,166
So it was, wasn't very nice. It was not a nice time to spend.

216
00:18:53,167 --> 00:18:55,766
IV: So did you see any executions or torturings?

217
00:18:55,767 --> 00:18:58,432
SI: Yes, yes, executions.

218
00:18:58,433 --> 00:19:03,932
The official executions that we have seen, was, there were six Russians.

219
00:19:03,933 --> 00:19:07,932
They were prisoners of war, young boys.

220
00:19:07,933 --> 00:19:12,566
Never forget it, on the Appellplatz, they put their scaffolding.

221
00:19:12,567 --> 00:19:15,632
And they hang them all at the same time. We had to watch.

222
00:19:15,633 --> 00:19:20,266
What their crime was, I don't know.

223
00:19:20,267 --> 00:19:26,999
And I don't know that anybody knows. Whether they tried to escape or they tried to kill a German. I have no idea.

224
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,999
But they were executed. But people were executed, beaten, for no reason at all.

225
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:38,566
You had to take your cap off when an SS-man passed.

226
00:19:38,567 --> 00:19:42,866
Sometimes he didn't like you taking your cap off, he beat you up.

227
00:19:42,867 --> 00:19:45,999
You didn't take it off, they beat you up, so.

228
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:51,999
They knocked my tooth out because I wasn't fast enough to take my cap off.

229
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:59,099
That's, that's how it was in Flossenbürg. And ah..

230
00:19:59,100 --> 00:20:04,866
IV: Remembering this time here, what do you think was, what was the hardest and terrible thing for you?

231
00:20:04,867 --> 00:20:06,232
SI: Everything.

232
00:20:06,233 --> 00:20:10,466
From people laying next to you and not waking up

233
00:20:10,467 --> 00:20:15,632
to people going to work and dying while marching to work or coming back.

234
00:20:15,633 --> 00:20:17,832
These were mostly young people.

235
00:20:17,833 --> 00:20:22,199
I spoke to a Polish man, cause I speak Polish,

236
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:30,432
and asked him: "What do you do here?" Since he was here, I told you the story, he was here with his 39-year-old father who perished here.

237
00:20:30,433 --> 00:20:36,032
Perished from hunger, from Typhoid, from God knows what.

238
00:20:36,033 --> 00:20:39,532
And as the kids died in my block,

239
00:20:39,533 --> 00:20:45,399
they put them into the latrine and then the people came and collected them to the crematorium.

240
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,832
There were everyday, every single day, there were bodies,

241
00:20:48,833 --> 00:20:57,766
brought to the, ah, what was it called, the bathroom, the bathroom, no, the latrine.

242
00:20:57,767 --> 00:21:03,532
And, that's where they laid there while we washed ourselves.

243
00:21:03,533 --> 00:21:06,632
So you lived and died with death.

244
00:21:06,633 --> 00:21:10,999
IV: So and there also was, we just passed the Krankenrevier.

245
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,599
SI: Yeah, I was there twice.

246
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,032
Once I had my testicles frozen.

247
00:21:16,033 --> 00:21:20,132
I couldn't walk, they were so big. I couldn't walk, they put me there.

248
00:21:20,133 --> 00:21:24,232
And once I had this thumb, I got a piece of aluminium

249
00:21:24,233 --> 00:21:27,499
and they debated whether they cut my hand off.

250
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:35,532
And I started crying "Don't cut my hand off. If they, you cut my hand off, I'm dead. They will kill me, I couldn't work."

251
00:21:35,533 --> 00:21:43,666
So this French doctor did this, cut off and cleaned it up.

252
00:21:43,667 --> 00:21:45,332
And I stayed a few days.

253
00:21:45,333 --> 00:21:50,499
While staying there, they made me carry food from the SS-kitchen

254
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:55,999
which was there in Kommando, Kommandantur to this prison that they had here.

255
00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:02,466
You know, they had a lot of big people. Schuschnigg, Canaris, I don't know.

256
00:22:02,467 --> 00:22:11,266
And we carried food to them and we carried food to a Hurhaus that was here to be used by prisoners mostly Germans.

257
00:22:11,267 --> 00:22:19,532
And then when more people came, they were not Germans, they allowed certain people, Czechs, not Poles and not Jews.

258
00:22:19,533 --> 00:22:24,366
Czechs, I think, the French, if they wanted to use the Hurhaus.

259
00:22:24,367 --> 00:22:32,132
And these women, the poor women, were all prisoners but forced into prostitution.

260
00:22:32,133 --> 00:22:36,732
IV: And the people who went there, they had some money to pay the whores?

261
00:22:36,733 --> 00:22:40,932
SI: Well, they paid, they paid people, not the Jews.

262
00:22:40,933 --> 00:22:45,266
They paid people three or four marks a week or month or I don't know whatever.

263
00:22:45,267 --> 00:22:50,366
They had a canteen, the canteen was for everybody but not the Jews.

264
00:22:50,367 --> 00:23:00,066
So, with that money, they could either buy in canteen whatever, I don't know, cigarettes, maybe chewing gum or something like that.

265
00:23:00,067 --> 00:23:06,799
And - or go to the house, to the Hurhaus, and pay for that.

266
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,799
So. Choice was theirs.

267
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:17,732
IV: Okay, wie weit sind wir mit der Kassette, bevor ich eine neue Frage stelle?

268
00:23:17,733 --> 00:23:21,599
SI: So silly.

269
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:21,999
IV: Yeah.

270
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:28,566
SI: Okay, we marched out on a Monday, I think, it was April 16th.

271
00:23:28,567 --> 00:23:33,099
Or April 17th. I think 16th.

272
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:36,732
We were all standing on the Appellplatz. The whole camp.

273
00:23:36,733 --> 00:23:40,332
And they yelled: "Juden raustreten!"

274
00:23:40,333 --> 00:23:42,699
Well, first of all, the night before,

275
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:48,732
they took Russian prisoners and they executed them, someplace. We heard shots.

276
00:23:48,733 --> 00:23:49,932
We didn't know where.

277
00:23:49,933 --> 00:23:53,232
So, then they said: "Alle Juden raustreten!"

278
00:23:53,233 --> 00:23:57,732
So, I tried to sneak my way in to stay with the non-Jews.

279
00:23:57,733 --> 00:24:01,466
Little Polish kid, "Hey Jude - they call you!"

280
00:24:01,467 --> 00:24:04,866
So I had to go and we marched to the station,

281
00:24:04,867 --> 00:24:08,399
wherever the Flossenbürg station was. 

282
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,499
And they had these open cars, flat cars.

283
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:16,066
And they put us up there and we went a few kilometres. 

284
00:24:16,067 --> 00:24:20,632
And fighters came, American fighter planes, shot up the locomotives.

285
00:24:20,633 --> 00:24:23,466
In between they took few of us,

286
00:24:23,467 --> 00:24:26,466
because, you know, a plane cannot see exactly,

287
00:24:26,467 --> 00:24:29,566
are they prisoners or are they not prisoners?

288
00:24:29,567 --> 00:24:31,166
So they shot up.

289
00:24:31,167 --> 00:24:36,799
And they brought new locomotives and we went another few miles and boom, again the same thing.

290
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:42,499
Till by Schwarzenfeld, the Germans had enough and they started marching us out.

291
00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:53,332
And we marched till we were liberated, my group went, was led, we were, first of all, we were marching at night.

292
00:24:53,333 --> 00:24:57,099
Because they were afraid of the planes.

293
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:04,132
And they took us in, into a forest, at dawn, after the march.

294
00:25:04,133 --> 00:25:08,599
And we thought that's it, we get executed there.

295
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:19,632
But most of our guards were ex-prisoners, that means Germans, gypsies, and some Ukrainians.

296
00:25:19,633 --> 00:25:22,999
They gave them - they swore their allegiance.

297
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,466
And they got uniforms and guns and they were our guards.

298
00:25:26,467 --> 00:25:31,466
And some of them were the biggest bastards, bigger than the SS, so bad.

299
00:25:31,467 --> 00:25:35,066
And we, on the 23th of April,

300
00:25:35,067 --> 00:25:39,732
we saw in the morning, when they brought us into the forest,

301
00:25:39,733 --> 00:25:46,399
they began to throw bullets out of their bullet, you know, cases.

302
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,532
And, all of a sudden, nobody there, no guards.

303
00:25:51,533 --> 00:25:53,199
IV: They run away?

304
00:25:53,200 --> 00:26:02,766
SI: Disappeared. Like - and I had some friends that, we were held together from Mielec still.

305
00:26:02,767 --> 00:26:08,166
And they were older, so I decided, we better move out of here.

306
00:26:08,167 --> 00:26:11,299
So I got my guys and we started marching in.

307
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:17,999
And nearby, was a town, and up the hill, where we were going,

308
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,466
was a German Major with a Panzerfaust.

309
00:26:21,467 --> 00:26:27,666
And with a pair of binoculars, so, I came over, I spoke decent German.

310
00:26:27,667 --> 00:26:32,899
And I said "Major, wir bitten um Erlaubnis, in das Dorf rein."

311
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:38,066
He got scared, says: "Okay, I'm coming with you."

312
00:26:38,067 --> 00:26:40,132
Because he wanted to surrender.

313
00:26:40,133 --> 00:26:44,199
And he was with us, he hoped that he won't get killed.

314
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:48,066
And we went into town, he got taken prisoner.

315
00:26:48,067 --> 00:26:54,099
And we got food thrown from each and every tank that passed.

316
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:56,532
I told my boys not to eat.

317
00:26:56,533 --> 00:27:03,032
We went to a farm house, the farm woman thought we were going to kill her because

318
00:27:03,033 --> 00:27:07,432
I mean, we, we, were prisoners...

319
00:27:07,433 --> 00:27:14,099
And ah, all I asked was some food, she made us some eggs, she gave us some bread.

320
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:17,799
We washed ourselves, we had no other clothes.

321
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,566
Since I was a bit wounded, they put me in a field hospital with the American army.

322
00:27:23,567 --> 00:27:26,666
And they took me, I stayed there, I,

323
00:27:26,667 --> 00:27:31,132
with the officer was next to me, a Lieutenant, and he took me

324
00:27:31,133 --> 00:27:37,499
after he got well and I did, to the company he was with, which was the division that liberated us.

325
00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:41,499
And I stayed with him, for - till they were going home.

326
00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:44,132
They wanted to smuggle me to the States.

327
00:27:44,133 --> 00:27:46,332
I did not want me smuggled.

328
00:27:46,333 --> 00:27:49,699
I wanted to be coming to the States as a free person.

329
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:55,399
And so the UNRRA came, I don't know how they knew about me and my friend,

330
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,566
and they took us to Indersdorf.

331
00:27:57,567 --> 00:28:02,632
At Indersdorf, I stayed a very short period of time, whether it was three or four weeks.

332
00:28:02,633 --> 00:28:06,699
And then I met somebody on the train who was looking for me.

333
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:12,099
My cousin was liberated and stayed in Konstanz,

334
00:28:12,100 --> 00:28:16,399
was, ah, there and his mother and sister. 

335
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,032
They were all liberated then.

336
00:28:19,033 --> 00:28:21,499
And we went from there to Paris.

337
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:26,532
And Paris to Canada, Canada - the States.

338
00:28:26,533 --> 00:28:31,566
IV: So maybe you can give us some details of the march.

339
00:28:31,567 --> 00:28:37,299
So, how, when you remember how big the group was you left in Flossenbürg, how many reached -

340
00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:41,399
SI: Ah, Flossenbürg, the Jews, probably four or five thousand, I assume.

341
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:47,799
I don't know, you know we didn't count, we marched out and we thought this is it, the end.

342
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:55,732
When they took us on the cars, each car, flat car had about 50, 60, maybe 100 people.

343
00:28:55,733 --> 00:28:59,432
With four guards on each flat car.

344
00:28:59,433 --> 00:29:04,599
And we rode, as I said, to Schwarzenfeld, this was the distance.

345
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,966
And I don't remember how far it is.

346
00:29:06,967 --> 00:29:10,766
I couldn't tell you if it's 20 kilometres from here, or 50 kilometres.

347
00:29:10,767 --> 00:29:18,766
But not far, and from there, we began, they put us in as groups, you know, like we, the younger people,

348
00:29:18,767 --> 00:29:24,932
so-called because we were 14, 15 and 16, marched as a group.

349
00:29:24,933 --> 00:29:32,499
And we marched out and we marched through towns through.. In the middle of the night.

350
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,366
Some kids threw stones at us.

351
00:29:36,367 --> 00:29:40,032
Some women try to offer us food, threw food at us.

352
00:29:40,033 --> 00:29:45,199
But the German guards warned them if they do it, they would be marching with us. So.

353
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:50,432
And it rained, terrible weather, terrible, every single day.

354
00:29:50,433 --> 00:29:53,132
Rain, rain and snow, rain.

355
00:29:53,133 --> 00:29:56,499
Till we got to this place we were liberated.

356
00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:59,932
IV: What happened to the people that were to weak to walk?

357
00:29:59,933 --> 00:30:01,632
SI: Shot, shot.

358
00:30:01,633 --> 00:30:10,399
The army claimed that they found us, following the Leichen that were laying on the streets.

359
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:16,532
And a lot of us, a lot of them were buried at Schwarzenfeld, for instance.

360
00:30:16,533 --> 00:30:21,699
And all the places where they collected the bodies and buried them on the spot.

361
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:29,699
I understand from the director here now that they had to exhume the bodies

362
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,366
and bring them here to Flossenbürg.

363
00:30:33,367 --> 00:30:34,666
That's all I know.

364
00:30:34,667 --> 00:30:40,099
And then we had people that couldn't walk.

365
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:44,299
They said, they just gave up, sat down and says: "Okay."

366
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:45,599
They were shot.

367
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,199
Other people dropped dead, so.

368
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,566
We probably, by the time we were liberated, our group was relatively lucky.

369
00:30:54,567 --> 00:30:58,366
We were younger, we were still, we could still march and keep up.

370
00:30:58,367 --> 00:31:02,166
Few of the kids dropped out, very few, but some.

371
00:31:02,167 --> 00:31:11,699
But we saw other groups that passed us or, terribly decimated, terribly. So.

372
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:23,632
IV: Ah, well, seeing all this, this long time, yeah, how did you feel, seeing the people dying beside you?

373
00:31:23,633 --> 00:31:35,232
SI: Oh, you know, you get, the will of survival makes you steely, makes you forget that you're a human being.

374
00:31:35,233 --> 00:31:39,699
You kept on marching, you kept on living.

375
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:43,399
I know to you it may sound abnormal.

376
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:50,199
But you know, when you are treated as an animal, you become like an animal and that's what we were.

377
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,199
The will to survive was paramount and this..

378
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,366
No matter how many bodies on each side, no matter who died.

379
00:31:58,367 --> 00:32:05,566
Maybe you felt badly if a friend or maybe a family member, but other than that, you were just.

380
00:32:05,567 --> 00:32:09,166
The will to live was very strong. So.

381
00:32:09,167 --> 00:32:10,966
We lived through it.

382
00:32:10,967 --> 00:32:14,332
IV: And the day of liberation, what kind of feelings came up in this moment?

383
00:32:14,333 --> 00:32:17,766
SI: Very, very - I cannot describe it.

384
00:32:17,767 --> 00:32:19,499
I thought they were Russians.

385
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:23,999
Since I spoke a little Russian, because I was here with Russians.

386
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,532
Because we saw stars on the tanks, white stars.

387
00:32:27,533 --> 00:32:31,132
And on the back of the tanks, they had red covers.

388
00:32:31,133 --> 00:32:34,566
So we thought they were Russians, we didn't know America was at war.

389
00:32:34,567 --> 00:32:41,599
I, the, the, exaltation of being free was unbelievable.

390
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,866
And I mean, you cannot describe it.

391
00:32:44,867 --> 00:32:56,832
No human being that wasn't there can describe the feeling of all of a sudden sort of not having guards, not having to die, not having to suffer anymore.

392
00:32:56,833 --> 00:33:01,332
It's something that will always live with me, the rest of my days.

393
00:33:01,333 --> 00:33:03,999
IV: Because a lot of people -

394
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,167
CM: Stop!