HM: Or so that...
IV: But the question is, since so many think it, the answer yes is good that one...
HM: Yes, one cannot understand. But...
IV: Well, I can understand it since when you arrive somewhere, that you are too weak to be happy...that is understandable.
HM: I can't understand myself really. When I arrived in Oederan from Auschwitz, I know that I was happy.
That was a really strong feeling of joy because I knew...
IV:That was probably also the reality...
HM: I knew that death...maybe we were scared that they might kill us.
But it was not so, not so close.
IV {to CM}: It is running again, isn't it?
CM: I running.
IV: OK. Yes.
And I think that then, in the moment, it wasn't really clear what it meant or what was happening.
HM: Yes.
IV: Because I think, it was still...others were starving, it was probably chaotic too, and many were sick and later died.
HM: Exactly. It was...and mother was not home.
I knew that mother was probably not alive...
And the whole family was gone.
And grandfather had died in Theresienstadt and the house was gone...everything.
That was not a happy feeling.
Really, it was only in Oederan that we felt happy because there we sensed at the time that we had escaped death.
Then we started to fear again that they could also kill us in Oederan.
And with the...there were also the bombs, when Dresden was bombed we saw that.
And that was the entire, it was totally red and we
It was possible...when they bombed, a bomb could fall on us too, right?
Because they didn't know who was where.
And so fear was always present, always.
But even after the war, that was not a feeling of happiness because everything around us was bad and...
And all the others were no longer alive and...
And we had nothing and no...
We had survived, but we were not...there was no big happy feeling, definitely not.
I think it was the same with everyone.
I mean, everyone had...
IV: What happened next when you were in Prague?
How did your life continue?
HM: So I studied in Prague for a time.
Then I didn't want to live in Europe and I sensed that the communists were coming.
And my uncle...my mother's brother, was living in Palestine.
I wanted to go to Palestine.
And then they made it possible for me to go to Palestine.
I entered into a fake marriage.
Because people who were in the British Army and had been in Palestine before, were able to return with their families.
And if a boy didn't have any family, they gave him a wife in a fake marriage, so that he could bring her to Palestine legally.
So arrangements were made for me -- a fake marriage.
And I was able to go to Palestine legally.
And live with my uncle and it was difficult at that time.
Because that was not Israel, it still belonged to England and...
I worked in the beginning as a cleaner and...
later as a telephone operator.
Then I worked in the Iraq Petroleum Company and then the war began and we also had...
Then I married and had a child.
And we didn't have anything.
We had a room and I had an apartment with one room and someone had their office in the kitchen.
And we had to work hard because my husband was a soldier and my husband didn't have any money and everything was on cards.
So life was not so easy in the beginning.
And a little later we got a different apartment and another child and everything...
My husband worked and everything...
we worked and had...
Then we had...then life was...
And then there was Israel and life began to be normal.
And there was always war, but still, it was a normal life.
That's how it was.
In the beginning I didn't work and then I did work, as a kind of gynastics...from Feldenkrais.
I don't know if people know what that is.
IV: Yes, I know.
HM: Ok, you know. So I was with Feldenkrais.
I was very sick then.
And I was very weak.
And actually I felt more like I was in a camp then.
Because I was so very weak and very sick.
And then I heard about Feldenkrais and studied with him.
And that helped me a lot and other people wanted me to help them too.
So I offered classes and learned more because I didn't know enough.
Then I began to work a lot with these Feldenkrais classes and...
Then everything was alright.
The children grew up and the children studied and married and...
Then it was a normal life.
IV: I would like to return...
HM: Yes.
IV: to Czechoslovakia.
HM: Yes
IV: You said you studied in Prague.
HM: Yes.
IV: How did people react?
Was anyone interested in your story?
That you had come from the death camps?
Were you like a hero or like...
Did that make things easier for you?
HM: No, no!
Not at the university.
At the university I was just one of...so many other students.
I was already...
But at the university it was easier.
You only learn there was you find interesting and...
I had to take the exams just like everyone else.
No, that was just like the others, that was...
IV: And how was the attitude in Czechoslovakia towards these Jewish Holocaust survivors?
Among the population.
Could one speak about it?
Did the people want to know about these fates?
HM: They had...the Czechs had a bad life too.
There were also...the resistance and many people were...how is it called..in prison...
IV: Prison.
HM:...in prison.
And they were also always afraid.
Because they too...
Well, it is a little different.
Someone said:
"Yes, you don't know how scared we were when we slaughtered the pig."
Because slaughtering a pig was forbidden.
So it was a different kind of fear.
But it wasn't...they didn't have such a nice life and good life either.
So my firends helped me a lot.
The took me with them, opened the closet and said:
"Take a dress! Take whatever you want, what you need!"
And people were always giving me things...I didn't have anything, I didn't have any clothes, I didn't have any...nothing.
People were always bringing me clothes and things and...
Food back then was still on cards, yes the food was also on cards.
So there also wasn't....
And life was normal again.
I was with my friends again and with students and...
It was...I was not a hero or anything special probably...
Not in the society, where I lived.
I was just one of, of...
IV: But it was your home.
Checkoslovakia was your country.
HM: Yes
IV:: You grew up there.
HM: Yes.
IV: Why did you decide to go to Palestine?
Did you think there were no future, no opportunites for you there?
HM: Uh, I think the main thing was that my mother wasn't alive anymore and...
And since I had grown up with my grandparents and they were not there anymore either and no one from my family.
And my uncle, who I liked a lot...my mother's brother and I liked him very much.
And he was in Palestine and he wrote me:
"Come, come. You will be able to continue your studies here."
That is when I decided to go to him.
And when I got to Palestine, I said, that he actually...
He worked too and he definitely did not have enough money to send me to university.
And life was different there too, as I had imagined it would be when I was in Czechoslovakia.
I thought I would come to Palestine, would attend university.
In Palestine there was only one university in Jerusalem then.
And I didn't have the money to live in Jerusalem and pay for university.
And life was just different from what I had imagined.
But then I married and life was...life went on.
IV: How was the past dealt with in Israel?
Did you talk about it?
We people interested?
Because I imagine there were a lot of Holocaust survivors who went to what was then Palestine, now Israel.
HM: Yes.
IV: What was that like for you? Was it talked about?
HM: No.
IV: Did you want, could you talk about it?
HM: No, no. That was not an issue.
First of all, my husband was born in Israel.
And all of his friends were real Israelis.
And people who had been there a long time.
And everyone knew, it was Holocaust and so, but...
I entered into this Israeli society and...
I think I never really spoke to anyone about it what had been.
Or not much at least.
And my children, they always tell me that I didn't speak much and they don't know.
And only now are they beginning to ask questions or know or see.
And even the grandchildren say:
"Why don't we know anything?"
"And why didn't you speak about it?"
But I wanted the children to have a normal life.
And since my husband hadn't gone through the Holocaust...that helpled me to give the children a normal life.
There were families that always talked about these things.
And then in the...I think it was in '68, a lot of my friends from Czechoslovakia came to Israel.
But they had already bullt themselves...a normal life in Czecholslovakia and then they came to the kibbuz and that was a normal life again.
So we met and...but we didn't speak about the Holocaust.
But instead about the problems in Israel - there were enough problems, there was always war and something was always happening.
So that one...I, at least, didn't speak about it.
IV: And when did that change?
And...what led to this change?
HM: I think when you get older and...
Maybe it is that when I was young, when the children were young and it was a hard time and one had to work.
And always looking for money and how to buy a house.
And how to pay the morgage,
And there were just other things.
And now I have more time to think and speak about these things.
I think that was the same with everyone, that after they had lived a normal life they were able to speak about the Holocaust.
And perhaps they had more time to think back.
And in Germany and in Czechoslovakia too, they...
suddenly started asking the people about it.
And they traveled to Auschwitz and...
And people wanted to say, they wanted to tell about it.
And so over time it changed.
I think that as life got easier...for us, we were able to talk again about the things that happened to us...
And this distance, time distance, that probably helped us to work through it or so.
And it was more and more possible to speak about it.
It was no longer so fresh.
IV: And maybe not as threatening either.
For oneself, that the memories come back.
HM: That is what I meant. It wasn't as fresh and not as threatening and one was more able to...
They...we didn't have our parents anymore and we...
Uh...it was just somehow...I don't know why, but I think, the main thing was that there was more time to reflect.
Because when there was war in Israel, it wasn't possible...we had to think about the children in the military and whether they would come back.
And where they were and...
And my husband was in the military.
And it was a time...my husband and my son were in the military.
So that was much more important for me to think about.
IV: One moment.
HM: Yes.
CM: The ending is missing.
But I'd say basically (???)
IV: It was basically beforehand.
HM: What?
IV: Everything is fine.
What interests me now:
After you began to talk about it again...
HM: Yes, yes.
IV: Did something change in your life, or in your family, for yourself?
HM: No. But I think now, I think that young people should know what happened.
Young people should know that we didn't have easy lives.
And also the people in Germany, and the people in Europe.
And the people in Israel, too.
I...so there are differences.
I have friends who don't want to go to Germany and they don't want to talk about it.
I am of the opinion that we should tell young people and...
that they should know.
And it is important that it is not forgotten.
That something is done at the beginning, if something like this should happen again, that something be done at the beginning...
That if they know what happened to us, they may have the strength, if something happens again, that they could stop it in the beginning.
And not, uh, now let something like that happen.
IV: How was it for you when you returned to Germany the first time, to Oederan?
You were probably in Auschwitz too.
HM: I never wanted to go to Auschwitz.
I wanted to go to Theresienstadt, I wanted to go to Oederan.
But I never wanted to go to Auschwitz.
I don't know. That was something, I just couldn't, maybe I haven't processed it stll today.
There are people who go there with young people.
I never wanted to go to Auschwitz.
I was even a little scared to come here.
Because I had seen the pictures of how the camp had once been {coughs}
And then I said: "Oh, that looks like Auschwitz.
I don't want that."
I got drawn into something that wasn't right for me.
And the man who went with me, from Israel, he said:
"No, you shouldn't be afraid.
It is no longer like what you think. You can come along."
IV: And when you got here?
When you were in Oederan, how was that?
Was that difficult? Did memories come back?
HM: Uh, not...I mean of course memories came back, but...
We were able to treat it lightly somehow, because we were girls together and we spoke with young people.
And the young people asked a lot of questions.
And the young people were very, very nice and very interested.
And I was very glad that I had gone there and that I could speak with the people.
Because I had been to Oederan before.
I was in Czechoslovakia and it is not very far.
And I said to my husband:
"Come on, let's go to Oederan."
And then we were in Oederan.
And we were at the main market there.
And we asked people where the factory is.
And nobody knew that it was a factory and that anything had been there.
And then we found an old man, and he told us where the factory was.
And I went to the factory and it was empty then.
No one...there were no people there.
And then we left Oederan.
And then when they invited me, I thought that it is important that they know that...
And then a girl from Oederan wrote me.
Uh...she wanted to do an assignment at school...I mean at the university.
And she said she hadn't even known that there had been a camp in Oederan.
It was... somewhere else.
And then she read that there had been prisoners in Oederan and a camp too.
And she wanted to know more.
She presented me with a whole sheet of questions and I answered them.
And she did a project on this subject, a university project.
And then I thought that this is very important because she lived there and she hadn't known what had been there.
IV: And what is your feeling: in Israel, are the young people interested now in your life story?
HM: Yes.
IV: Is there strong interest there?
HM: Yes, yes, they are interested too.
They travel to Auschwitz and they hear lectures and...
They go to...Yad Vashem.
And they go to this Theresienstadt House.
The Theresienstadt House with a museum with an exhibition.
Work is done there too.
And it is in a kibbuz, this ghetto is.
And the people, the young people go there and are interested, yes.
There was a time when people didn't speak about it, and now.
Yes, and even my children, they didn't know either.
And now, the schools, they take the schoolchildren
And they perform Brundibár, that was performed in Theresienstadt.
It is performed everywhere.
And they hear the music from Theresienstadt.
Andt they hear that...
There are exhibitions and they see pictures of Theresienstadt.
The new generation knows that this happened.
IV: Good. We are basically finished.
I would just like to ask to small factual questions that Fritz wrote down for me.
Uh, ok, I just have to take a look.
HM: Good.
IV: Uh, Did you have siblings?
HM: I had a sister, but she died before the war.
IV: So you went moved alone with your mother to Prague and then to Theresienstadt.
HM: Yes. I lived with my mother.
And we had to live a village.
And we went with mother...
And even then I wasn't able to stay.
I was able to stay, I personally could stay, because I could always say that I was Christian.
I could have stayed with my father.
But I didn't want to.
I always wanted to be with my mother.
I didn't want my mother to have to go alone.
And I think I wanted to remain a Jew.
IV: {coughing}
And what exactly happened to your mother.
Did you ever find out the fate of your mother?
HM: Never, never.
I think she went straight to the gas.
Because she was always sick from travel.
I mean even in normal times she was always...
She always got very sick when she traveled in a car or by train.
So I think she was not in a good condition when she arrived in Auschwitz.
And I never...I always believed and always dreamed that she...
During the day I had a normal life.
But at night I always dreamed that she returned, that she came back.
Although I basically knew that it wasn't so.
Because if she was alive, she would have certainly gone to Strakonice.
I would have known that she survived.
And it is possible that they sent her to a camp.
But I never...
IV: And did you leave Theresienstadt and your mother stayed behind?
HM: No. My mother left before me.
I wanted to go with her.
But the Germans didn't let me.
They didn't allow it.
Probably because I was a half Jew.
And they didn't, they kept them a bit longer.
Because they didn't want them there.
So my mother left and I couldn't go.
But then two transports later I left.
IV: And after the liberation, you came back to Theresienstadt.
Do you know approximately how long you were in Theresienstadt before you went on to Prague? Not very long.
HM : I think a week or so.
Not, not,..maybe less. .
IV: Mmh.
HM: Because we were in good condition and because we were the first to arrive, there was...they didn't...
I don't know, girls who were with us...not all of them were Czechs.
And they didn't know anyone in Theresienstadt or in Prague.
And I think they were put in a camp somewhere and...
There were in Theresienstadt longer than me.
They took care of them until they could...
Until they knew where to go and what they should do.
They were probably in the camp in Theresienstadt.
The Poles, the Hungarians who were with us.
But all the Czechs probably left soon to go to Prague.
There was the Jewish Community already in Prague.
And they took care of us.
IV: Ok, good. Now one more factual question:
How and where did you go when you came to Palestine, you didn't speak Hebrew yet.
HM: No. I learned it in the youth movement...they taught us words but I couldn't speak it.
So when I arrived...I could speak a little English.
And that is why I worked in Israel for the Iraq Petroleum.
Because they worked in English.
And from listening...actually I never really learned anywhere.
I did a writing course and from my husband.
When I wrote something he would point out my mistakes.
And I learned from my children...
My children never wanted...
I always wanted them to learn another language when they were young
But they never wanted to.
That was a...one speaks only Ivrit and is not allowed to speak another language.
And so I learned from the children because we didn't learn any other language.
And in the beginning I only spoke Engish with my husband.
But...because with the children only Hebrew and everything only in Hebrew.
And so I had to learn Hebrew and...
IV: Over time.
HM: :Over time, yes.
IV: How and where did you meet your husband.
HM: On a bus. {laughs}
I was riding on a bus and he was on the bus too.
And he knew someone who was sitting next to me.
And so we began to speak.
And then he went a different way and I went a different way.
And then we went...I went to the movies and he was...at the second showing.
And he came out of the first showing.
And we met each other and he spoke to me and...
Then we realized that we lived very close to each other.
And we became friends and he was a soldier and I said...
He wanted to marry and I believed one should marry a soldier.
He shouldn't, if he is a soldier and something happened to him, he should, we should be married and so we got married in the war.
And he only had one day off.
And I was...at this Iraq Petroleum Company we didn't work on Sundays.
So we married on a Sunday and then he went back to the military and...
so...{laughs}
IV: Was that significant that your husband came from Israel and had not experienced the Holocaust.
Could you imagine having a partner who had the same fate as you?
Was that even an issue?
HM: No, that was not an issue.
I didn't look for anyone specific or....
I had a friend here and a friend there.
And with mine...with my husband it worked out the best and I took him.
Then I ...then we...
Then we got married without thinking about how I am like this and he is like that.
It's is like I told you already, everyone was poor and no one had an apartment or money or work.
And then one got married.
And somehow...
I wasn't looking for a special kind of man and not even a rich man or a...
Just someone that I could get along with and that was all.
IV: And that is what happened.
HM: Yes. That is what happened, just
IV: By chance.
HM: Yes. {laughs}. The way life is.
And back then, really I didn't think I should marry a man who had money or an apartment or...
Uh...we didn't think back then about where we would live or {laughs}.
One didn't think that far ahead.
It was...Israel at that time was also...it was very bad times and very, very hard and we took one day at a time.
And we always believed things would work out.
IV: And it did get better.
HM: And it was good {laughs}.
IV: Good. I think I have it now.