1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,632 IV: Well, so maybe you can tell me a little bit where you grew up. 2 00:00:10,633 --> 00:00:11,166 MH: Yes. 3 00:00:11,167 --> 00:00:13,499 IV: What happened then to the Jews, to you, to your family. 4 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:17,299 MH: I think the best thing is for me, it’s to start from beginning. 5 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:22,932 From where I was born right to where to, to where we are going to come right at the end. 6 00:00:22,933 --> 00:00:25,999 So I'll start with my date of birth. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,532 I was born, I have just found out now the record of my birth. 8 00:00:30,533 --> 00:00:33,999 Because I did not know before for many years. 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:40,666 You see, when we were liberated and we were taken to England, we had no documents. 10 00:00:40,667 --> 00:00:47,799 Nothing. So they just ask me for my name and date of birth, not my, my official date of birth, I was too young, I couldn’t. 11 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,832 So I just gave any date that came into my mind. 12 00:00:51,833 --> 00:00:59,766 And from that day on all my documents, all my legal documents go on that date of birth that I gave. 13 00:00:59,767 --> 00:01:05,832 For example my passport, my British passport, has the date that I originally gave. So. 14 00:01:05,833 --> 00:01:10,499 But I knew that was not the correct date, cause I had no record. 15 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:16,332 So for many years I tried to find out my real date of birth. 16 00:01:16,333 --> 00:01:22,799 I’ve went to the Romanian embassy for many years, I said: “Would you be so kind as to try and find my birth certificate?” 17 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:28,366 They said: “No, we can’t find it because there was war there, there was fighting and things were destroyed.” 18 00:01:28,367 --> 00:01:31,299 Anyway, eventually they did find it. 19 00:01:31,300 --> 00:01:37,666 So I found out my date of birth was different than the one that I gave. That my official documents. 20 00:01:37,667 --> 00:01:42,966 But now, that I’ve seen, checked here, and I’ve seen my date of birth. 21 00:01:42,967 --> 00:01:44,732 They have got the correct date of birth. 22 00:01:44,733 --> 00:01:49,399 How they got it I don’t know, because when we were brought to Flossenbürg 23 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,899 I couldn’t remember... that, that I was interviewed for name. 24 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:56,066 I know one thing, I had the number. 25 00:01:56,067 --> 00:01:59,099 I was given a number in Auschwitz. 26 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:00,499 I was given a number. 27 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:04,099 But here I got a number, the correct number. 28 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:07,699 Anyway, to go back to my original aim. 29 00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:14,299 So I was born in a place called, the name of the village was called Ruskova. 30 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:20,632 Ruskova is in Transylvania, now Transylvania, eh, Romania is divided into counties. 31 00:02:20,633 --> 00:02:26,932 Now that part is call- although it’s in Transylvania, but the area was called Maramureș. 32 00:02:26,933 --> 00:02:29,632 The area is called Maramureș. 33 00:02:29,633 --> 00:02:40,099 So I was born in a village called Maram, ehmm, Ruskova, in Maramureș, which is about 3-4 km from the border of the Ukraine. 34 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:48,066 But before the First World War all that area, it's very complicated, all that area was Austrian-Hungarian. 35 00:02:48,067 --> 00:02:50,066 Before the First World War. 36 00:02:50,067 --> 00:02:55,766 Now, the treaty of Versailles after the First World War was divided. 37 00:02:55,767 --> 00:02:57,532 There was no more Austrian-Hungarian. 38 00:02:57,533 --> 00:03:00,832 That part became Romania. 39 00:03:00,833 --> 00:03:06,099 Although the people, most of the people living there were still Hungarians, Austrian-Hungarians. 40 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:12,532 But the country became Romania, so when I was born I was born Romanian. 41 00:03:12,533 --> 00:03:17,666 My nationality was Romanian. 42 00:03:17,667 --> 00:03:28,599 Although it was Romanian, I went to a Romanian school, but at home the Jewish people now at the area only spoke Yiddish at home. 43 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,299 Our language at home was only Yiddish. 44 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:43,666 In school, I went to a Romanian school, I spoke Romanian, but the.. the street language was Russ-, Ukrainian... 45 00:03:43,667 --> 00:03:48,132 Although it was Romania, but the people who were living there were not Romanians. 46 00:03:48,133 --> 00:03:51,966 The, right on the border, so they were Ukrainians. 47 00:03:51,967 --> 00:03:58,266 So we had to speak three languages - Ukrainian, Romanian and Yiddish. 48 00:03:58,267 --> 00:04:04,199 So in the morning I went to a Romanian school for half a day. 49 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:12,532 Lunch time, the school was very near where we lived, I came, had a meal, and the afternoon I went to a Jewish school. 50 00:04:12,533 --> 00:04:20,266 So half was edu- my education was Romanian, half was Jewish. 51 00:04:20,267 --> 00:04:22,999 Right. 52 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,166 Family, I’m coming to the family. 53 00:04:25,167 --> 00:04:31,799 We were a family of eight children, and the parents. 54 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,599 We were 10. We were land - our family was landowners. 55 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:44,199 We were pretty big land owner. We had farms, hundreds of sheep and cattle. Very big. 56 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:53,732 In 1935 my father took part of the family to Palestine. 57 00:04:53,733 --> 00:04:58,232 Not Israel, at that, in 1930s it was not Israel, it was Palestine. 58 00:04:58,233 --> 00:05:05,066 My father took two of my brothers and two of my sisters to Palestine. 59 00:05:05,067 --> 00:05:13,532 The whole idea was to go and see what the situation is, you know, settle down, because he was an idealist. 60 00:05:13,533 --> 00:05:17,866 You know, a Jewish ide- idealist, about Palestine. 61 00:05:17,867 --> 00:05:19,999 And they went there, they worked. 62 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:27,966 It was very hard, because at that time in Palestine for Jew, there was a very small Jewish com-, ah, community in Palestine at that time. 63 00:05:27,967 --> 00:05:30,666 Only about 300,000 or 400,000. 64 00:05:30,667 --> 00:05:33,266 It was very hard. 65 00:05:33,267 --> 00:05:42,099 In 1938 he came back to Romania. Now it was still Romania in 1938. 66 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:51,166 He brought one of my brothers back, because the other brother and the two sisters, they were old enough to look after themselves. 67 00:05:51,167 --> 00:05:52,432 They were grown up, they worked. 68 00:05:52,433 --> 00:05:58,732 But the other brother was too young, he had nobody to leave him with, so he brought him back to Romania. 69 00:05:58,733 --> 00:06:07,832 The whole idea was to come back to Romania, sell everything out and take the rest of the family to Palestine. 70 00:06:07,833 --> 00:06:13,032 But then he had visas to go back. 71 00:06:13,033 --> 00:06:17,299 The whole idea was to come and take the rest of the family to get visas, of course. 72 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:22,166 He started in 1938, couldn't go back to Palestine. 73 00:06:22,167 --> 00:06:24,799 So we got stuck in Romania. 74 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,599 At that time, Romania in the 30's, there was a lot of anti-Semitism. 75 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,932 I don’t know if you know the history of the "Arhanghelul" party. 76 00:06:34,933 --> 00:06:40,599 In Romania it was called (???) they were the leaders. The "Arhanghelul" party. 77 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:46,232 There was so much anti-Semitism, even before they started in Germany killing. 78 00:06:46,233 --> 00:06:51,266 In Romania it’s always been… none-Jewish, anti-Semitic. Very anti-Semitic. 79 00:06:51,267 --> 00:06:52,866 Jews were persecuted. 80 00:06:52,867 --> 00:06:57,799 But as it happened, where we lived, we didn’t suffer. 81 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,899 Nothing happened to us.. until 1940. 82 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:07,099 Now this is very important what I’m going to tell you, until 1940. 83 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:12,432 Because before the First World War, that part was Austrian-Hungarian. 84 00:07:12,433 --> 00:07:19,532 And it was taken away, when Romania got it after the First World War, the treaty of Versailles. 85 00:07:19,533 --> 00:07:23,532 The Romanians always claimed that they were cheated out. 86 00:07:23,533 --> 00:07:28,899 Because most of the population at that part, at that area, were still Hungarians. 87 00:07:28,900 --> 00:07:30,099 They spoke Hungarian. 88 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:42,632 So they said, look, because Hungary was part of the axis with Nazi Germany, they were fighting with the side of the Germans. 89 00:07:42,633 --> 00:07:49,832 So they - Hitler, more or less gave an ultimatum to Romania to see this back to Hungary. 90 00:07:49,833 --> 00:07:52,999 Because Hungary was an ally of Nazi Germany. 91 00:07:53,000 --> 00:08:00,199 Romania had no choice, you know, it’s.. So they, it, we became part of Hungary. 92 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,632 So in 1940 we became part of Hungary. 93 00:08:03,633 --> 00:08:08,032 No… I was born in Romania, now I’m Hungarian. 94 00:08:08,033 --> 00:08:15,066 So.. I went for, I think, two classes from 1940 to a Hungarian school. 95 00:08:15,067 --> 00:08:18,999 Then the Hungarians started to put pressure on the Jewish people. 96 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,366 Because they were part of the axis with Nazi Germany. 97 00:08:22,367 --> 00:08:25,999 But we were left alone. 98 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:32,999 Jews have persecuted in other parts. But in our village the, we were left alone. 99 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,232 We never felt.. 100 00:08:34,233 --> 00:08:43,366 But what this important thing is, we were so isolated in that part, it’s in the Carpathian Mountains. 101 00:08:43,367 --> 00:08:48,266 We were so isolated, we did not know what was going on in the world. 102 00:08:48,267 --> 00:08:55,699 We had no newspapers, no radio, no communication, we were living in a world of our own there. 103 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:57,499 We were left alone. 104 00:08:57,500 --> 00:09:03,399 We had a, personally ourselves we had a good life, because we were pretty wealthy people, you see. 105 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,566 But the rest of the people were very poor. 106 00:09:05,567 --> 00:09:07,666 People were generally very poor. 107 00:09:07,667 --> 00:09:13,466 But as far as our own family is concerned, I’m stressing - the family, we were alright. 108 00:09:13,467 --> 00:09:18,766 You know, we had a, we were missing nothing, we had everything. 109 00:09:18,767 --> 00:09:22,199 Everything, we had, produced our own food, our own clothing, everything. 110 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,832 But we were so isolated, we didn’t know what was going on the rest of the world. 111 00:09:26,833 --> 00:09:31,799 When the war started, Jews were already persecuted in Poland, in everywhere. 112 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:32,999 We didn’t even know. 113 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:40,432 We knew nothing what was going on, until 1944. 114 00:09:40,433 --> 00:09:46,099 Suddenly, nah, can you imagine how naive we were. 115 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:52,566 Suddenly in 1944 we saw troops coming into the village. 116 00:09:52,567 --> 00:09:59,832 German troops, because it was near the border, they were going to the Russian front, the German troops. 117 00:09:59,833 --> 00:10:02,399 That was the way going to the Russian front. 118 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:10,766 Suddenly the villages were invaded by Russian… by eh, German soldiers with cannons being pulled by mules. 119 00:10:10,767 --> 00:10:15,766 Because it’s, it’s very mountainous, they couldn’t use transport, so they used mules. 120 00:10:15,767 --> 00:10:21,832 Now we had a very big yard, as I said we had a big, big house. 121 00:10:21,833 --> 00:10:28,666 We were a large family but we had a very big house compared to other people’s houses because of our wealth. 122 00:10:28,667 --> 00:10:34,699 We had a very big yard, oh, you could see as big as this. Very big yard. 123 00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:38,432 They pulled into the yard with the horses, with the cannons. 124 00:10:38,433 --> 00:10:47,166 They tied it up along the balcony and, showing you now, I’m going to tell you how naive, how we knew nothing about. 125 00:10:47,167 --> 00:10:48,799 We welcomed them. 126 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,499 We welcomed them, the troops. 127 00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:52,932 We didn’t know who they were. 128 00:10:52,933 --> 00:10:56,832 I, that was the first time in my life I ever saw a soldier. 129 00:10:56,833 --> 00:11:00,499 Never seen a soldier, I was, what, 12 years old. 130 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:03,266 It was something, a novelty to me. You know. 131 00:11:03,267 --> 00:11:07,099 So soldiers, we invited them into our house. 132 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:09,199 The soldiers. 133 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:17,832 Can you imagine, here, you got people who are murdering Jews all over Europe, we are inviting them into our home. 134 00:11:17,833 --> 00:11:21,999 We put out mattresses, because we had as I said a big house. 135 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,666 We put out mattresses, we fed them. 136 00:11:24,667 --> 00:11:29,966 You know, as if they’re friends of ours. 137 00:11:29,967 --> 00:11:37,532 They were there for a few days and they, they carried on to the Russian front. 138 00:11:37,533 --> 00:11:41,166 Nothing has happened. At that time they left, nothing. 139 00:11:41,167 --> 00:11:47,266 Now when the Hungarians took over in 1940, they set up a police station in the village. 140 00:11:47,267 --> 00:11:50,899 I will come afterwards, explain to you how big the village was. 141 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:54,199 And there were two or three policemen, Hungarian. 142 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:59,066 And I remember the Hungarian police with feathers in their, in their hats. 143 00:11:59,067 --> 00:12:03,132 They were there but we were left alone. 144 00:12:03,133 --> 00:12:06,599 And we still don’t know what goes on in Europe. 145 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,599 There were already the camps, Jews being murdered all over by the Nazis. 146 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,999 And as I said, we welcomed these soldiers into our home. Gave them food, gave medicine. 147 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:23,232 One day.. it’s on a Friday, that I remember distinctly. It was a Friday. 148 00:12:23,233 --> 00:12:30,332 I remember in the morning, we had so many properties, land fields, orchards and other things. 149 00:12:30,333 --> 00:12:35,032 I remember my parents sent me up to one of the fields. 150 00:12:35,033 --> 00:12:40,966 I used to know the way through the forest, you know, because I took an interest in what is going on. 151 00:12:40,967 --> 00:12:43,966 I rode up with a horse, we had horses, everything. 152 00:12:43,967 --> 00:12:50,599 I suppose it was about a kilometer, kilometer and a half from there. 153 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,166 Anyway, I come down, because I had to come down. 154 00:12:55,167 --> 00:12:59,366 You know, we were religious people, so Sabbath was coming in. 155 00:12:59,367 --> 00:13:03,232 Friday, so naturally I had to come down before Sabbath. 156 00:13:03,233 --> 00:13:05,599 I come down. 157 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,499 Nah, this is when I came down, that’s when I found the soldiers, the Germans in our place. 158 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:16,999 Anyway, when they left, we carried on as if nothing had happened. 159 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:24,699 Until one day, it’s on a Friday, again it was on a Friday.. 160 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,832 German soldiers came in again into the village. 161 00:13:27,833 --> 00:13:34,299 Now, now I know they were SS with Hungarian police. 162 00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:41,132 Nothing, as if it’s, they’re going to ask somebody, just started to round up the people. 163 00:13:41,133 --> 00:13:48,932 Now the village consisted.. it’s a long village. It’s one street. 164 00:13:48,933 --> 00:13:52,966 Primitive, you know, no roads. You know. Very primitive. 165 00:13:52,967 --> 00:13:59,866 One long street and houses on each side, and only Jewish people lived in the village. 166 00:13:59,867 --> 00:14:03,999 The non-Jewish people, which are Uk-, they’re Ukrainians, did not live in the village. 167 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,499 They lived in the fields. 168 00:14:05,500 --> 00:14:09,099 Either side of mountain there’s, they lived in the fields. 169 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:13,666 And they started rounding up people. Going from house to house to house. 170 00:14:13,667 --> 00:14:17,299 No, take nothing, just out of the village. 171 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,599 Now, the village had two synagogues. 172 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:28,099 Because it was a long road at one end of the village it was one synagogue, the other end of the village is the other. 173 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:32,399 We were at the sort of the top end of the village so we used that synagogue. 174 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:42,666 Now, because we were wealthy people, my father was a big a (???). it needed up keeping everything, so he, we paid for everything. 175 00:14:42,667 --> 00:14:44,566 For the upkeep of the synagogue. 176 00:14:44,567 --> 00:14:50,666 They rounded everybody up and they took us to an area near the synagogue. 177 00:14:50,667 --> 00:14:52,499 An open area near the synagogue. 178 00:14:52,500 --> 00:15:01,999 And some people had bundles and they put us, we were there actually before they rounded up the whole village. 179 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,732 We must have been there for hours. 180 00:15:03,733 --> 00:15:06,032 It depends who got there first. 181 00:15:06,033 --> 00:15:12,466 Because we were near the synagogue, so I presume we must have been one of the first ones who were rounded, rounded up. 182 00:15:12,467 --> 00:15:19,199 We waited there until they rounded up the whole village. And they started putting up people on horses carts. 183 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,232 Now, where they’re taking us? I don’t know. 184 00:15:22,233 --> 00:15:28,466 To me it’s still something, nothing, I don’t know what’s happening, I personally don’t know. 185 00:15:28,467 --> 00:15:34,399 I’ll come to that later, why I am surprised that they all the people didn't know. 186 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:40,699 I know, nobody had wireless or a newspaper. 187 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:44,999 They started driving us away on horse cart. Now - 188 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,599 IV: Eh, did they say anything? 189 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:46,799 MH: No. 190 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:47,999 IV: Did they have weapons? - 191 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,499 MH: They had weapons, yes, they went from house to house, getting people out. 192 00:15:52,500 --> 00:15:53,966 You see, of course they had weapons. 193 00:15:53,967 --> 00:15:57,199 Not only the Germans, there was the Hungarian Police. 194 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,199 Now, they started driving us. 195 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:05,799 They drove us for about two hours. Suddenly, we come through a little town. 196 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,832 The little town is called Vișeu. 197 00:16:08,833 --> 00:16:10,966 Now, I knew about the little town. 198 00:16:10,967 --> 00:16:12,499 I've never been there before. 199 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:15,899 I'd never been out of the village, in my life. 200 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:20,166 And to me, something was a novelty to go. Don't forget. 201 00:16:20,167 --> 00:16:23,199 It was so primitive, our place, we had no water. 202 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,366 You see, everything had to come from the well. 203 00:16:25,367 --> 00:16:28,699 Never seen electricity. You know. 204 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:34,066 So when we got there to this town, I say "Look, you can switch on, there's electricity." 205 00:16:34,067 --> 00:16:35,999 You know, it was something new to me. 206 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,632 I'd never seen it before. 207 00:16:37,633 --> 00:16:40,632 Anyway, I knew about the town. 208 00:16:40,633 --> 00:16:44,966 How? My father had a sister living in that town. 209 00:16:44,967 --> 00:16:47,766 So I knew always, they used to go to Vișeu. 210 00:16:47,767 --> 00:16:51,799 You know, I'm bringing, when they came back, they brought some chocolate, you know, from the town. 211 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,999 Because the village, ourselves, we had a couple of shops but we didn't have a lot of things in the shop. 212 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,032 Most of the things that we needed was - everything was produced by ourselves. 213 00:17:02,033 --> 00:17:03,266 It was very little. 214 00:17:03,267 --> 00:17:06,632 Alright, you had to buy shoes when it's old, there were shops. 215 00:17:06,633 --> 00:17:12,266 Anyway, we were put - we arrived in this town Vișeu. 216 00:17:12,267 --> 00:17:15,199 Which I knew, I've never been there but I knew Vișeu. 217 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,799 You know, I've heard it so many times. 218 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,999 And as it happens, I don't know how it comes, pure coincidence. 219 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:29,299 How it happened that we finished up - and they put us in the house where my auntie was living, my brother's sister. 220 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:32,299 I don't know where, how it was planned until this day. 221 00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:36,732 We were there for a few weeks. 222 00:17:36,733 --> 00:17:45,699 Nah, suddenly, they were bringing more people into the Ghetto. They formed a Ghetto. Why. 223 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:50,799 All that area consisted mostly of villages. 224 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:56,932 There was this town, Vișeu, only about 10-12,000 people, a small town. 225 00:17:56,933 --> 00:18:00,032 Also in the mountains, the Carpathian Mountains. 226 00:18:00,033 --> 00:18:07,166 They were rounding up all the Jewish people because most of these villages around were consisting of Jewish people. 227 00:18:07,167 --> 00:18:11,599 Now, they were rounding them up and bringing them into the Ghetto in Vișeu. 228 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,366 Now I know why this was chosen as a Ghetto. 229 00:18:16,367 --> 00:18:21,666 We were there for a few weeks and it wasn't easy, in the few weeks. 230 00:18:21,667 --> 00:18:24,699 Very little - there was no more food, you know, it was hard. 231 00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:30,266 The reason why: Vișeu has a railway line. 232 00:18:30,267 --> 00:18:33,966 Vișeu has got a railway, a station there, a railway. 233 00:18:33,967 --> 00:18:38,932 When they rounded up all the people, their plan was obviously to send us to Auschwitz. 234 00:18:38,933 --> 00:18:42,266 Now, I know it. I've read all the history and everything what happened. 235 00:18:42,267 --> 00:18:44,066 Now I know, then, of course I didn't. 236 00:18:44,067 --> 00:18:47,332 It had a railway line, you see. 237 00:18:47,333 --> 00:18:52,032 And from that railway line, they could transport people. 238 00:18:52,033 --> 00:18:58,899 So all the villages surrounded from that area, put into this Ghetto. 239 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:04,832 And eventually, we were taken away by, what is it, wagons, you know, the open trucks. Now. 240 00:19:04,833 --> 00:19:08,666 May I (???), I've never been on a train in my life. 241 00:19:08,667 --> 00:19:13,999 You know, it was something, I'ver never seen, never seen a train, never been on a train. 242 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,632 They put us on these trains, now. 243 00:19:17,633 --> 00:19:23,132 The biggest town in that area is, as I say, the district was called Maramureș. 244 00:19:23,133 --> 00:19:26,032 There's a bigger town, I don't know whether you've heard of it. 245 00:19:26,033 --> 00:19:28,599 It's a well-known town, it's called Sighet. 246 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,699 Anyway.. 247 00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:37,899 Sighet - the train took us all along that route, I didn't know. 248 00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:42,032 But I've been back a few times and I know the route exactly. 249 00:19:42,033 --> 00:19:46,999 We stopped in that town and picked up more people. 250 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,599 Sighet. 251 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,699 And then, from there.. 252 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:56,266 How long we travelled, two days or something, I don't know. 253 00:19:56,267 --> 00:20:01,366 All of a sudden, we come through a place and the doors are open. 254 00:20:01,367 --> 00:20:05,666 And they're shouting "Raus! Raus from the waggonen!" 255 00:20:05,667 --> 00:20:08,899 And I see, full of soldiers, in front of us. 256 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:15,066 Now, for the day, two, three days that we travelled, it was terrible conditions inside the train. 257 00:20:15,067 --> 00:20:19,132 We had no water, no ventilation, people were just on top of us. 258 00:20:19,133 --> 00:20:25,132 So when we arrived, two people were already dead in the waggons. 259 00:20:25,133 --> 00:20:34,732 Anyway, we arriving, so I was with my father, my mother, one of the sisters. 260 00:20:34,733 --> 00:20:38,766 As I say, when he took two sisters to Romania but one sister was left in -- 261 00:20:38,767 --> 00:20:43,066 when he took them to Palastina, one sister was left in Romania. 262 00:20:43,067 --> 00:20:51,499 So, it was my father, mother, my sister and four brothers. 263 00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:54,166 Four brothers. I was the youngest in the family. 264 00:20:54,167 --> 00:20:55,766 I was the youngest. 265 00:20:55,767 --> 00:21:00,599 So when we got out, I see full of soldiers, with dogs. 266 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:06,966 And they started with - sort of pointing, nothing said, just pointing. 267 00:21:06,967 --> 00:21:08,999 This direction, this direction. 268 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,966 No, we were - the five men, they, women on one side and men on the other side. 269 00:21:14,967 --> 00:21:18,266 And we were together, the four brothers with my father. 270 00:21:18,267 --> 00:21:19,966 We were in one line. 271 00:21:19,967 --> 00:21:24,566 They took my father away and left the four brothers together. 272 00:21:24,567 --> 00:21:26,999 Again, I don't know what is happening. 273 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,099 I don't know this is Auschwitz, what is happening. 274 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:33,266 We're still naive, can you imagine this is going on. 275 00:21:33,267 --> 00:21:38,466 Now, from.. We're, we're talking about 1944, this has been going on for years. 276 00:21:38,467 --> 00:21:42,032 And we still don't know. 277 00:21:42,033 --> 00:21:47,599 Suddenly, they take us away and they take us - telling us to undress. 278 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,699 And then, we go into a room and they shaved me. 279 00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:55,832 And they put me into another room with showers. 280 00:21:55,833 --> 00:21:59,866 And when it's finished, they gave me uniform. 281 00:21:59,867 --> 00:22:02,066 A striped uniform. 282 00:22:02,067 --> 00:22:05,232 Where we are, I still don't know the name. 283 00:22:05,233 --> 00:22:06,466 I don't know. 284 00:22:06,467 --> 00:22:08,966 Now, we're told that we are in Auschwitz. 285 00:22:08,967 --> 00:22:11,466 But other people are already there. 286 00:22:11,467 --> 00:22:12,899 We're told we are in Auschwitz. 287 00:22:12,900 --> 00:22:15,366 Auschwitz, where's Auschwitz, I don't know. 288 00:22:15,367 --> 00:22:19,166 I've never seen maps, I don't know the places, Auschwitz. 289 00:22:19,167 --> 00:22:24,899 Anyway, they put us in barracks, but never saw my parents anymore. 290 00:22:24,900 --> 00:22:26,966 My father.. or my sister. 291 00:22:26,967 --> 00:22:28,966 Because she was taken to one side. 292 00:22:28,967 --> 00:22:33,466 Didn't see anybody. We had the four brothers, we were put into barracks. 293 00:22:33,467 --> 00:22:37,166 In Auschwitz. Auschwitz-Birkenau. 294 00:22:37,167 --> 00:22:44,166 We were there for two, three weeks, I can't remember, but don't forget: 295 00:22:44,167 --> 00:22:48,666 You don't know the time of the day, you don't know what day it is, or what month. 296 00:22:48,667 --> 00:22:51,599 You don't know nothing. You are completely in the dark. 297 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,466 We were there and all of a sudden - 298 00:22:53,467 --> 00:22:58,966 One day, they take us away and they are transporting us by train. 299 00:22:58,967 --> 00:23:01,932 We are still together, the four brothers. 300 00:23:01,933 --> 00:23:04,099 Transporting us by train. 301 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:07,832 Not very long. It only took a few hours. By train. 302 00:23:07,833 --> 00:23:11,132 They are taking us out and we are put in another camp. 303 00:23:11,133 --> 00:23:16,432 I don't know, I'm with - I see people for the first time in another camp. 304 00:23:16,433 --> 00:23:21,599 And we are told that this camp is called Dörnhau in Silesia. 305 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,999 We are told it's Dörnhau. 306 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,199 It's a slave labour camp, Arbeitslager. It's an Arbeitslager. 307 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,766 So we are there for months and months. 308 00:23:30,767 --> 00:23:35,999 So, I'm working in a quarry, you know. 309 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,532 Every morning, they are taking us out from the barracks, working in a quarry. 310 00:23:40,533 --> 00:23:44,299 We are working - lucky enough, the four brothers, still together. 311 00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:49,566 And another thing, they are building a station on - in the mountain. 312 00:23:49,567 --> 00:23:55,332 Now, I have found out that the company who we were working for, 313 00:23:55,333 --> 00:23:58,199 I'll have to ask Anna, she knows name of it, 314 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,532 it's one of the biggest companies now in Germany. 315 00:24:01,533 --> 00:24:04,666 They have several engineers, they're building roads and everything. 316 00:24:04,667 --> 00:24:10,699 I found out, this is the company, we were working for in Silesia, in Dörnhau. 317 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:13,799 Anyway, I didn't know that but now, I've found out. 318 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,899 These are the people.. The company. 319 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:21,299 And they are the biggest now in Germany, they have several engineers, building roads, everything, bridges. 320 00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:24,099 So, let's go back to what happened. 321 00:24:24,100 --> 00:24:29,566 We are working there for a few months, one day, nah. 322 00:24:29,567 --> 00:24:34,366 I have to stop for the camp, it's very important. 323 00:24:34,367 --> 00:24:38,332 We are working, people are dying, like slaves. 324 00:24:38,333 --> 00:24:40,332 Everyday, people.. 325 00:24:40,333 --> 00:24:44,799 Hardly any food, working in the quarries, building railways. 326 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,266 People are dying out like skeletons, very little food. 327 00:24:48,267 --> 00:24:55,232 Everytime people are dying out, they were bringing more, replacing, because they needed the workers. 328 00:24:55,233 --> 00:24:58,499 They were replacing the labourers. 329 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:01,432 We four brothers are still together. 330 00:25:01,433 --> 00:25:04,299 Wasn't easy but we were surviving, you know. 331 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:08,632 You had to - in English you say - you had to be streetwise, you know. 332 00:25:08,633 --> 00:25:10,566 You had to use common sense. 333 00:25:10,567 --> 00:25:14,566 If you didn't and you just let yourself - you had no chance of surviving. 334 00:25:14,567 --> 00:25:19,566 You know, we were determined. I was young, I was only 13 years old at that time. 335 00:25:19,567 --> 00:25:21,732 I was the youngest. 336 00:25:21,733 --> 00:25:26,866 One day.. Some SS came into the camp. 337 00:25:26,867 --> 00:25:28,999 You know, we had Kapos. 338 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,299 You heard, you know about the Kapos who were running the camp inside. They were Jewish Kapos. 339 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:40,099 One day, SS - some high officers came into the camp. 340 00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:44,799 And they said, they have to make a selection to take away children 341 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:50,499 who they considered are not able to work, they're going to take them to a Kinderheim. 342 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,232 They're taken to a Kinderheim. 343 00:25:53,233 --> 00:25:58,266 So they selected, I don't know how many, two, three or four hundred, I don't know the number. 344 00:25:58,267 --> 00:26:07,332 And myself, I was the youngest, and my other brother, he lives in London, he was next in age, not the two older brothers. 345 00:26:07,333 --> 00:26:10,466 We are selected to go to this Kinderheim. 346 00:26:10,467 --> 00:26:15,032 They said nothing. 347 00:26:15,033 --> 00:26:21,199 I didn't know, to this day, I still don't know the answer why this has happened to me. 348 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:27,299 Suddenly, one of the Kapos - you see, they made up the number, they already had the number. 349 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:31,766 Suddenly, one of the Kapos comes and took us out. 350 00:26:31,767 --> 00:26:34,399 And I, myself and my brother, from that group. 351 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:40,466 Don't ask me, I don't know why or any- they just took us out from that group. 352 00:26:40,467 --> 00:26:45,999 Now, the number had been made up, so they had to replace two others. 353 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:52,432 They took us out, they took them away, to a Kinderheim, what the SS said, they're taken to a children's home. 354 00:26:52,433 --> 00:26:55,999 Because they're not able to work, they're too young. 355 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:01,166 When they went away, we were told they were taken to Auschwitz to be gassed. 356 00:27:01,167 --> 00:27:06,332 To be gassed. Now, can you imagine, here I am today 357 00:27:06,333 --> 00:27:10,399 because I was taken out from that group. 358 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,866 Why - I don't know. 359 00:27:12,867 --> 00:27:20,232 I think they felt sorry. I was so small, I think the Kapos just felt something for me. 360 00:27:20,233 --> 00:27:22,299 So they took me out and my brother. 361 00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:26,166 And the other two, older brothers were still in the camp. 362 00:27:26,167 --> 00:27:30,232 And they carried on, we were working there.. 363 00:27:30,233 --> 00:27:38,932 Date, I cannot eh, tell you, because we have no time, we have no - we didn't know what day it was or what month it was. 364 00:27:38,933 --> 00:27:42,366 We knew one thing, in the morning they got you out for Appell. 365 00:27:42,367 --> 00:27:48,499 And they give you - they say they'll give you coffee or something to eat, they just give you hot water. 366 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,966 And took you to work. Out from the camp. 367 00:27:51,967 --> 00:27:56,666 And when you returned in the evening, they said, this is your main food. 368 00:27:56,667 --> 00:28:01,932 So you got a slice of bread and soup, cabbage soup. They gave you. 369 00:28:01,933 --> 00:28:04,066 Hot water with a bit of cabbage. 370 00:28:04,067 --> 00:28:12,899 This is why people were dying all day, how you - how long can you carry on, working like a slave in the quarries, and no food. 371 00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:16,599 So people were dying and they kept replacing because they needed the workers. 372 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,066 Anyway, we were in that camp. 373 00:28:20,067 --> 00:28:26,466 One day, they started evacuating the camp. 374 00:28:26,467 --> 00:28:30,999 Why? I say, we didn't know that - about the front, the fighting. 375 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,332 So I've read all the records, I've read hundreds of books. What happened? 376 00:28:35,333 --> 00:28:38,299 The Russian army were advancing within Silesia. 377 00:28:38,300 --> 00:28:42,299 So naturally, they took us out from that camp, from Dörnhau. 378 00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:47,999 They took us out and they marched us, I think for one day or one half day, to another camp. 379 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,899 And that camp was called Schotterwerk. 380 00:28:50,900 --> 00:28:57,132 Jah, they.. when we arrived there, we were told this is the camp, the name of the camp. 381 00:28:57,133 --> 00:29:05,499 We were there.. only I think, two or three weeks, no longer than that. 382 00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:10,599 Suddenly, they took us out again from that camp and we started marching from Silesia. 383 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,132 That's when we started.. We marched for days or weeks. 384 00:29:16,133 --> 00:29:21,499 Until one day, they put us on trucks. Open trucks. 385 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:25,132 Again, don't forget, we don't know where we are. 386 00:29:25,133 --> 00:29:27,099 We have no idea where we are. 387 00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:32,599 Until one day, we hear planes coming over. 388 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,132 Started shooting up the train. Stopping the train. 389 00:29:37,133 --> 00:29:44,699 And one of the bullets came through because we were crowded like sardines inside in the open trucks, you see. 390 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:47,766 And It was bitter cold, it was terrible conditions. 391 00:29:47,767 --> 00:29:50,999 And one of the bullets came right through. 392 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:56,332 And the young chap, a young fellow next to me, it went right through his jaw. 393 00:29:56,333 --> 00:30:00,632 I saw blood, you know, - I was feeling myself, you know, if it's me. 394 00:30:00,633 --> 00:30:07,599 It's not. And this young boy whose - it went, the bullet went right through, he came from my village. 395 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,532 I knew him, I knew him. 396 00:30:09,533 --> 00:30:15,666 And funny enough, his brother, I found out after war that his brother survived and he was somewhere in Frankfurt. 397 00:30:15,667 --> 00:30:17,932 So you know, you make inquiries. 398 00:30:17,933 --> 00:30:22,466 And I never told his brother what happened to him. 399 00:30:22,467 --> 00:30:30,499 Anyway, suddenly, as I see the planes came over, they were strafing, and they destroyed the locomotive. 400 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:31,766 It couldn't carry on. 401 00:30:31,767 --> 00:30:34,199 They took us all out from the trains. 402 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,732 There were people dying. 403 00:30:35,733 --> 00:30:41,666 The conditions were terrible. It was undescribable. 404 00:30:41,667 --> 00:30:46,599 They took us out and suddenly, they are starting making a selection again. 405 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:52,699 No - I'm sorry. This is very important. I missed the most important point. 406 00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:58,732 When they took us out from Schotterwerk, to start marching, we were together the four brothers. 407 00:30:58,733 --> 00:31:03,599 This is the most important thing which I missed. We were still together, the four brothers. 408 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,066 They marched us for two or three weeks. 409 00:31:07,067 --> 00:31:11,599 One day, all this - during the night, when they used to put us into forests. 410 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:17,966 Not for our benefit. I suppose the SS, they had to march as well, so they needed, they needed a rest. 411 00:31:17,967 --> 00:31:19,999 They put us in a forest one night. 412 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:29,499 In the morning, they lined us up, starting counting and they started making a selection again. 413 00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:30,666 A selection. 414 00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:38,566 Suddenly, I see, we are the four brothers still together, myself, my next brother and then the two older brothers. 415 00:31:38,567 --> 00:31:43,032 And suddenly, I see, they take - they took my two older brothers away from us. 416 00:31:43,033 --> 00:31:46,299 From myself and my brother. 417 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:48,266 And they lined up, they did the selection. 418 00:31:48,267 --> 00:31:54,032 They, they said that people couldn't march anymore. They couldn't carry on. 419 00:31:54,033 --> 00:31:59,999 Suddenly, we start marching but without the two brothers. 420 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,432 I don't think we marched more than half a kilometer. 421 00:32:04,433 --> 00:32:07,732 We heard shots. We heard shots. 422 00:32:07,733 --> 00:32:12,499 And we were told that older people who they picked out were shot. 423 00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:14,432 That's when I lost my two brothers. 424 00:32:14,433 --> 00:32:17,099 Now to this day, I don't know where it happened. 425 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:18,999 Because we didn't know where we were. 426 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,666 I would like to find out, where this - now I don't know how to find out. 427 00:32:23,667 --> 00:32:27,166 I don't know where they - my two brothers. 428 00:32:27,167 --> 00:32:30,532 Anyway, we carry on marching, marching. 429 00:32:30,533 --> 00:32:38,466 From there, it must - because that was Schwandorf, I don't know if it was Schwandorf. 430 00:32:38,467 --> 00:32:44,332 But one of the boys, he was a German boy, he's here, he's here. 431 00:32:44,333 --> 00:32:45,732 And he knew the names. 432 00:32:45,733 --> 00:32:50,566 So I asked where did this happen. So he says "In the town of Schwandorf." 433 00:32:50,567 --> 00:32:55,266 People are shot - right there. Because they were selected that they couldn't march. 434 00:32:55,267 --> 00:32:56,466 It was Schwandorf. Now. 435 00:32:56,467 --> 00:32:59,866 I don't know the distance from Schwandorf to Flossenbürg. 436 00:32:59,867 --> 00:33:04,999 I don't, I have no idea. What's the distance? 150 kilometres? I don't know the distance. 437 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,266 IV: Less, it's less. 438 00:33:06,267 --> 00:33:11,232 MH: It's less. Anyway, they marched us from Schwandorf to Flossenbürg. 439 00:33:11,233 --> 00:33:17,832 Now, those people that were left - because a lot of them had died already in the march from Silesia. 440 00:33:17,833 --> 00:33:21,999 Those who were left, anybody who fell out, couldn't march - so he was just shot. 441 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:29,000 So when we got here to Flossenbürg, from about 5,000 people, we only arrived -