IV: Well, so maybe you can tell me a little bit where you grew up.
MH: Yes.
IV: What happened then to the Jews, to you, to your family.
MH: I think the best thing is for me, it’s to start from beginning.
From where I was born right to where to, to where we are going to come right at the end.
So I'll start with my date of birth.
I was born, I have just found out now the record of my birth.
Because I did not know before for many years.
You see, when we were liberated and we were taken to England, we had no documents.
Nothing. So they just ask me for my name and date of birth, not my, my official date of birth, I was too young, I couldn’t.
So I just gave any date that came into my mind.
And from that day on all my documents, all my legal documents go on that date of birth that I gave.
For example my passport, my British passport, has the date that I originally gave. So.
But I knew that was not the correct date, cause I had no record.
So for many years I tried to find out my real date of birth.
I’ve went to the Romanian embassy for many years, I said: “Would you be so kind as to try and find my birth certificate?”
They said: “No, we can’t find it because there was war there, there was fighting and things were destroyed.”
Anyway, eventually they did find it.
So I found out my date of birth was different than the one that I gave. That my official documents.
But now, that I’ve seen, checked here, and I’ve seen my date of birth.
They have got the correct date of birth.
How they got it I don’t know, because when we were brought to Flossenbürg
I couldn’t remember... that, that I was interviewed for name.
I know one thing, I had the number.
I was given a number in Auschwitz.
I was given a number.
But here I got a number, the correct number.
Anyway, to go back to my original aim.
So I was born in a place called, the name of the village was called Ruskova.
Ruskova is in Transylvania, now Transylvania, eh, Romania is divided into counties.
Now that part is call- although it’s in Transylvania, but the area was called Maramureș.
The area is called Maramureș.
So I was born in a village called Maram, ehmm, Ruskova, in Maramureș, which is about 3-4 km from the border of the Ukraine.
But before the First World War all that area, it's very complicated, all that area was Austrian-Hungarian.
Before the First World War.
Now, the treaty of Versailles after the First World War was divided.
There was no more Austrian-Hungarian.
That part became Romania.
Although the people, most of the people living there were still Hungarians, Austrian-Hungarians.
But the country became Romania, so when I was born I was born Romanian.
My nationality was Romanian.
Although it was Romanian, I went to a Romanian school, but at home the Jewish people now at the area only spoke Yiddish at home.
Our language at home was only Yiddish.
In school, I went to a Romanian school, I spoke Romanian, but the.. the street language was Russ-, Ukrainian...
Although it was Romania, but the people who were living there were not Romanians.
The, right on the border, so they were Ukrainians.
So we had to speak three languages - Ukrainian, Romanian and Yiddish.
So in the morning I went to a Romanian school for half a day.
Lunch time, the school was very near where we lived, I came, had a meal, and the afternoon I went to a Jewish school.
So half was edu- my education was Romanian, half was Jewish.
Right.
Family, I’m coming to the family.
We were a family of eight children, and the parents.
We were 10. We were land - our family was landowners.
We were pretty big land owner. We had farms, hundreds of sheep and cattle. Very big.
In 1935 my father took part of the family to Palestine.
Not Israel, at that, in 1930s it was not Israel, it was Palestine.
My father took two of my brothers and two of my sisters to Palestine.
The whole idea was to go and see what the situation is, you know, settle down, because he was an idealist.
You know, a Jewish ide- idealist, about Palestine.
And they went there, they worked.
It was very hard, because at that time in Palestine for Jew, there was a very small Jewish com-, ah, community in Palestine at that time.
Only about 300,000 or 400,000.
It was very hard.
In 1938 he came back to Romania. Now it was still Romania in 1938.
He brought one of my brothers back, because the other brother and the two sisters, they were old enough to look after themselves.
They were grown up, they worked.
But the other brother was too young, he had nobody to leave him with, so he brought him back to Romania.
The whole idea was to come back to Romania, sell everything out and take the rest of the family to Palestine.
But then he had visas to go back.
The whole idea was to come and take the rest of the family to get visas, of course.
He started in 1938, couldn't go back to Palestine.
So we got stuck in Romania.
At that time, Romania in the 30's, there was a lot of anti-Semitism.
I don’t know if you know the history of the "Arhanghelul" party.
In Romania it was called (???) they were the leaders. The "Arhanghelul" party.
There was so much anti-Semitism, even before they started in Germany killing.
In Romania it’s always been… none-Jewish, anti-Semitic. Very anti-Semitic.
Jews were persecuted.
But as it happened, where we lived, we didn’t suffer.
Nothing happened to us.. until 1940.
Now this is very important what I’m going to tell you, until 1940.
Because before the First World War, that part was Austrian-Hungarian.
And it was taken away, when Romania got it after the First World War, the treaty of Versailles.
The Romanians always claimed that they were cheated out.
Because most of the population at that part, at that area, were still Hungarians.
They spoke Hungarian.
So they said, look, because Hungary was part of the axis with Nazi Germany, they were fighting with the side of the Germans.
So they - Hitler, more or less gave an ultimatum to Romania to see this back to Hungary.
Because Hungary was an ally of Nazi Germany.
Romania had no choice, you know, it’s.. So they, it, we became part of Hungary.
So in 1940 we became part of Hungary.
No… I was born in Romania, now I’m Hungarian.
So.. I went for, I think, two classes from 1940 to a Hungarian school.
Then the Hungarians started to put pressure on the Jewish people.
Because they were part of the axis with Nazi Germany.
But we were left alone.
Jews have persecuted in other parts. But in our village the, we were left alone.
We never felt..
But what this important thing is, we were so isolated in that part, it’s in the Carpathian Mountains.
We were so isolated, we did not know what was going on in the world.
We had no newspapers, no radio, no communication, we were living in a world of our own there.
We were left alone.
We had a, personally ourselves we had a good life, because we were pretty wealthy people, you see.
But the rest of the people were very poor.
People were generally very poor.
But as far as our own family is concerned, I’m stressing - the family, we were alright.
You know, we had a, we were missing nothing, we had everything.
Everything, we had, produced our own food, our own clothing, everything.
But we were so isolated, we didn’t know what was going on the rest of the world.
When the war started, Jews were already persecuted in Poland, in everywhere.
We didn’t even know.
We knew nothing what was going on, until 1944.
Suddenly, nah, can you imagine how naive we were.
Suddenly in 1944 we saw troops coming into the village.
German troops, because it was near the border, they were going to the Russian front, the German troops.
That was the way going to the Russian front.
Suddenly the villages were invaded by Russian… by eh, German soldiers with cannons being pulled by mules.
Because it’s, it’s very mountainous, they couldn’t use transport, so they used mules.
Now we had a very big yard, as I said we had a big, big house.
We were a large family but we had a very big house compared to other people’s houses because of our wealth.
We had a very big yard, oh, you could see as big as this. Very big yard.
They pulled into the yard with the horses, with the cannons.
They tied it up along the balcony and, showing you now, I’m going to tell you how naive, how we knew nothing about.
We welcomed them.
We welcomed them, the troops.
We didn’t know who they were.
I, that was the first time in my life I ever saw a soldier.
Never seen a soldier, I was, what, 12 years old.
It was something, a novelty to me. You know.
So soldiers, we invited them into our house.
The soldiers.
Can you imagine, here, you got people who are murdering Jews all over Europe, we are inviting them into our home.
We put out mattresses, because we had as I said a big house.
We put out mattresses, we fed them.
You know, as if they’re friends of ours.
They were there for a few days and they, they carried on to the Russian front.
Nothing has happened. At that time they left, nothing.
Now when the Hungarians took over in 1940, they set up a police station in the village.
I will come afterwards, explain to you how big the village was.
And there were two or three policemen, Hungarian.
And I remember the Hungarian police with feathers in their, in their hats.
They were there but we were left alone.
And we still don’t know what goes on in Europe.
There were already the camps, Jews being murdered all over by the Nazis.
And as I said, we welcomed these soldiers into our home. Gave them food, gave medicine.
One day.. it’s on a Friday, that I remember distinctly. It was a Friday.
I remember in the morning, we had so many properties, land fields, orchards and other things.
I remember my parents sent me up to one of the fields.
I used to know the way through the forest, you know, because I took an interest in what is going on.
I rode up with a horse, we had horses, everything.
I suppose it was about a kilometer, kilometer and a half from there.
Anyway, I come down, because I had to come down.
You know, we were religious people, so Sabbath was coming in.
Friday, so naturally I had to come down before Sabbath.
I come down.
Nah, this is when I came down, that’s when I found the soldiers, the Germans in our place.
Anyway, when they left, we carried on as if nothing had happened.
Until one day, it’s on a Friday, again it was on a Friday..
German soldiers came in again into the village.
Now, now I know they were SS with Hungarian police.
Nothing, as if it’s, they’re going to ask somebody, just started to round up the people.
Now the village consisted.. it’s a long village. It’s one street.
Primitive, you know, no roads. You know. Very primitive.
One long street and houses on each side, and only Jewish people lived in the village.
The non-Jewish people, which are Uk-, they’re Ukrainians, did not live in the village.
They lived in the fields.
Either side of mountain there’s, they lived in the fields.
And they started rounding up people. Going from house to house to house.
No, take nothing, just out of the village.
Now, the village had two synagogues.
Because it was a long road at one end of the village it was one synagogue, the other end of the village is the other.
We were at the sort of the top end of the village so we used that synagogue.
Now, because we were wealthy people, my father was a big a (???). it needed up keeping everything, so he, we paid for everything.
For the upkeep of the synagogue.
They rounded everybody up and they took us to an area near the synagogue.
An open area near the synagogue.
And some people had bundles and they put us, we were there actually before they rounded up the whole village.
We must have been there for hours.
It depends who got there first.
Because we were near the synagogue, so I presume we must have been one of the first ones who were rounded, rounded up.
We waited there until they rounded up the whole village. And they started putting up people on horses carts.
Now, where they’re taking us? I don’t know.
To me it’s still something, nothing, I don’t know what’s happening, I personally don’t know.
I’ll come to that later, why I am surprised that they all the people didn't know.
I know, nobody had wireless or a newspaper.
They started driving us away on horse cart. Now -
IV: Eh, did they say anything?
MH: No.
IV: Did they have weapons? -
MH: They had weapons, yes, they went from house to house, getting people out.
You see, of course they had weapons.
Not only the Germans, there was the Hungarian Police.
Now, they started driving us.
They drove us for about two hours. Suddenly, we come through a little town.
The little town is called Vișeu.
Now, I knew about the little town.
I've never been there before.
I'd never been out of the village, in my life.
And to me, something was a novelty to go. Don't forget.
It was so primitive, our place, we had no water.
You see, everything had to come from the well.
Never seen electricity. You know.
So when we got there to this town, I say "Look, you can switch on, there's electricity."
You know, it was something new to me.
I'd never seen it before.
Anyway, I knew about the town.
How? My father had a sister living in that town.
So I knew always, they used to go to Vișeu.
You know, I'm bringing, when they came back, they brought some chocolate, you know, from the town.
Because the village, ourselves, we had a couple of shops but we didn't have a lot of things in the shop.
Most of the things that we needed was - everything was produced by ourselves.
It was very little.
Alright, you had to buy shoes when it's old, there were shops.
Anyway, we were put - we arrived in this town Vișeu.
Which I knew, I've never been there but I knew Vișeu.
You know, I've heard it so many times.
And as it happens, I don't know how it comes, pure coincidence.
How it happened that we finished up - and they put us in the house where my auntie was living, my brother's sister.
I don't know where, how it was planned until this day.
We were there for a few weeks.
Nah, suddenly, they were bringing more people into the Ghetto. They formed a Ghetto. Why.
All that area consisted mostly of villages.
There was this town, Vișeu, only about 10-12,000 people, a small town.
Also in the mountains, the Carpathian Mountains.
They were rounding up all the Jewish people because most of these villages around were consisting of Jewish people.
Now, they were rounding them up and bringing them into the Ghetto in Vișeu.
Now I know why this was chosen as a Ghetto.
We were there for a few weeks and it wasn't easy, in the few weeks.
Very little - there was no more food, you know, it was hard.
The reason why: Vișeu has a railway line.
Vișeu has got a railway, a station there, a railway.
When they rounded up all the people, their plan was obviously to send us to Auschwitz.
Now, I know it. I've read all the history and everything what happened.
Now I know, then, of course I didn't.
It had a railway line, you see.
And from that railway line, they could transport people.
So all the villages surrounded from that area, put into this Ghetto.
And eventually, we were taken away by, what is it, wagons, you know, the open trucks. Now.
May I (???), I've never been on a train in my life.
You know, it was something, I'ver never seen, never seen a train, never been on a train.
They put us on these trains, now.
The biggest town in that area is, as I say, the district was called Maramureș.
There's a bigger town, I don't know whether you've heard of it.
It's a well-known town, it's called Sighet.
Anyway..
Sighet - the train took us all along that route, I didn't know.
But I've been back a few times and I know the route exactly.
We stopped in that town and picked up more people.
Sighet.
And then, from there..
How long we travelled, two days or something, I don't know.
All of a sudden, we come through a place and the doors are open.
And they're shouting "Raus! Raus from the waggonen!"
And I see, full of soldiers, in front of us.
Now, for the day, two, three days that we travelled, it was terrible conditions inside the train.
We had no water, no ventilation, people were just on top of us.
So when we arrived, two people were already dead in the waggons.
Anyway, we arriving, so I was with my father, my mother, one of the sisters.
As I say, when he took two sisters to Romania but one sister was left in --
when he took them to Palastina, one sister was left in Romania.
So, it was my father, mother, my sister and four brothers.
Four brothers. I was the youngest in the family.
I was the youngest.
So when we got out, I see full of soldiers, with dogs.
And they started with - sort of pointing, nothing said, just pointing.
This direction, this direction.
No, we were - the five men, they, women on one side and men on the other side.
And we were together, the four brothers with my father.
We were in one line.
They took my father away and left the four brothers together.
Again, I don't know what is happening.
I don't know this is Auschwitz, what is happening.
We're still naive, can you imagine this is going on.
Now, from.. We're, we're talking about 1944, this has been going on for years.
And we still don't know.
Suddenly, they take us away and they take us - telling us to undress.
And then, we go into a room and they shaved me.
And they put me into another room with showers.
And when it's finished, they gave me uniform.
A striped uniform.
Where we are, I still don't know the name.
I don't know.
Now, we're told that we are in Auschwitz.
But other people are already there.
We're told we are in Auschwitz.
Auschwitz, where's Auschwitz, I don't know.
I've never seen maps, I don't know the places, Auschwitz.
Anyway, they put us in barracks, but never saw my parents anymore.
My father.. or my sister.
Because she was taken to one side.
Didn't see anybody. We had the four brothers, we were put into barracks.
In Auschwitz. Auschwitz-Birkenau.
We were there for two, three weeks, I can't remember, but don't forget:
You don't know the time of the day, you don't know what day it is, or what month.
You don't know nothing. You are completely in the dark.
We were there and all of a sudden -
One day, they take us away and they are transporting us by train.
We are still together, the four brothers.
Transporting us by train.
Not very long. It only took a few hours. By train.
They are taking us out and we are put in another camp.
I don't know, I'm with - I see people for the first time in another camp.
And we are told that this camp is called Dörnhau in Silesia.
We are told it's Dörnhau.
It's a slave labour camp, Arbeitslager. It's an Arbeitslager.
So we are there for months and months.
So, I'm working in a quarry, you know.
Every morning, they are taking us out from the barracks, working in a quarry.
We are working - lucky enough, the four brothers, still together.
And another thing, they are building a station on - in the mountain.
Now, I have found out that the company who we were working for,
I'll have to ask Anna, she knows name of it,
it's one of the biggest companies now in Germany.
They have several engineers, they're building roads and everything.
I found out, this is the company, we were working for in Silesia, in Dörnhau.
Anyway, I didn't know that but now, I've found out.
These are the people.. The company.
And they are the biggest now in Germany, they have several engineers, building roads, everything, bridges.
So, let's go back to what happened.
We are working there for a few months, one day, nah.
I have to stop for the camp, it's very important.
We are working, people are dying, like slaves.
Everyday, people..
Hardly any food, working in the quarries, building railways.
People are dying out like skeletons, very little food.
Everytime people are dying out, they were bringing more, replacing, because they needed the workers.
They were replacing the labourers.
We four brothers are still together.
Wasn't easy but we were surviving, you know.
You had to - in English you say - you had to be streetwise, you know.
You had to use common sense.
If you didn't and you just let yourself - you had no chance of surviving.
You know, we were determined. I was young, I was only 13 years old at that time.
I was the youngest.
One day.. Some SS came into the camp.
You know, we had Kapos.
You heard, you know about the Kapos who were running the camp inside. They were Jewish Kapos.
One day, SS - some high officers came into the camp.
And they said, they have to make a selection to take away children
who they considered are not able to work, they're going to take them to a Kinderheim.
They're taken to a Kinderheim.
So they selected, I don't know how many, two, three or four hundred, I don't know the number.
And myself, I was the youngest, and my other brother, he lives in London, he was next in age, not the two older brothers.
We are selected to go to this Kinderheim.
They said nothing.
I didn't know, to this day, I still don't know the answer why this has happened to me.
Suddenly, one of the Kapos - you see, they made up the number, they already had the number.
Suddenly, one of the Kapos comes and took us out.
And I, myself and my brother, from that group.
Don't ask me, I don't know why or any- they just took us out from that group.
Now, the number had been made up, so they had to replace two others.
They took us out, they took them away, to a Kinderheim, what the SS said, they're taken to a children's home.
Because they're not able to work, they're too young.
When they went away, we were told they were taken to Auschwitz to be gassed.
To be gassed. Now, can you imagine, here I am today
because I was taken out from that group.
Why - I don't know.
I think they felt sorry. I was so small, I think the Kapos just felt something for me.
So they took me out and my brother.
And the other two, older brothers were still in the camp.
And they carried on, we were working there..
Date, I cannot eh, tell you, because we have no time, we have no - we didn't know what day it was or what month it was.
We knew one thing, in the morning they got you out for Appell.
And they give you - they say they'll give you coffee or something to eat, they just give you hot water.
And took you to work. Out from the camp.
And when you returned in the evening, they said, this is your main food.
So you got a slice of bread and soup, cabbage soup. They gave you.
Hot water with a bit of cabbage.
This is why people were dying all day, how you - how long can you carry on, working like a slave in the quarries, and no food.
So people were dying and they kept replacing because they needed the workers.
Anyway, we were in that camp.
One day, they started evacuating the camp.
Why? I say, we didn't know that - about the front, the fighting.
So I've read all the records, I've read hundreds of books. What happened?
The Russian army were advancing within Silesia.
So naturally, they took us out from that camp, from Dörnhau.
They took us out and they marched us, I think for one day or one half day, to another camp.
And that camp was called Schotterwerk.
Jah, they.. when we arrived there, we were told this is the camp, the name of the camp.
We were there.. only I think, two or three weeks, no longer than that.
Suddenly, they took us out again from that camp and we started marching from Silesia.
That's when we started.. We marched for days or weeks.
Until one day, they put us on trucks. Open trucks.
Again, don't forget, we don't know where we are.
We have no idea where we are.
Until one day, we hear planes coming over.
Started shooting up the train. Stopping the train.
And one of the bullets came through because we were crowded like sardines inside in the open trucks, you see.
And It was bitter cold, it was terrible conditions.
And one of the bullets came right through.
And the young chap, a young fellow next to me, it went right through his jaw.
I saw blood, you know, - I was feeling myself, you know, if it's me.
It's not. And this young boy whose - it went, the bullet went right through, he came from my village.
I knew him, I knew him.
And funny enough, his brother, I found out after war that his brother survived and he was somewhere in Frankfurt.
So you know, you make inquiries.
And I never told his brother what happened to him.
Anyway, suddenly, as I see the planes came over, they were strafing, and they destroyed the locomotive.
It couldn't carry on.
They took us all out from the trains.
There were people dying.
The conditions were terrible. It was undescribable.
They took us out and suddenly, they are starting making a selection again.
No - I'm sorry. This is very important. I missed the most important point.
When they took us out from Schotterwerk, to start marching, we were together the four brothers.
This is the most important thing which I missed. We were still together, the four brothers.
They marched us for two or three weeks.
One day, all this - during the night, when they used to put us into forests.
Not for our benefit. I suppose the SS, they had to march as well, so they needed, they needed a rest.
They put us in a forest one night.
In the morning, they lined us up, starting counting and they started making a selection again.
A selection.
Suddenly, I see, we are the four brothers still together, myself, my next brother and then the two older brothers.
And suddenly, I see, they take - they took my two older brothers away from us.
From myself and my brother.
And they lined up, they did the selection.
They, they said that people couldn't march anymore. They couldn't carry on.
Suddenly, we start marching but without the two brothers.
I don't think we marched more than half a kilometer.
We heard shots. We heard shots.
And we were told that older people who they picked out were shot.
That's when I lost my two brothers.
Now to this day, I don't know where it happened.
Because we didn't know where we were.
I would like to find out, where this - now I don't know how to find out.
I don't know where they - my two brothers.
Anyway, we carry on marching, marching.
From there, it must - because that was Schwandorf, I don't know if it was Schwandorf.
But one of the boys, he was a German boy, he's here, he's here.
And he knew the names.
So I asked where did this happen. So he says "In the town of Schwandorf."
People are shot - right there. Because they were selected that they couldn't march.
It was Schwandorf. Now.
I don't know the distance from Schwandorf to Flossenbürg.
I don't, I have no idea. What's the distance? 150 kilometres? I don't know the distance.
IV: Less, it's less.
MH: It's less. Anyway, they marched us from Schwandorf to Flossenbürg.
Now, those people that were left - because a lot of them had died already in the march from Silesia.
Those who were left, anybody who fell out, couldn't march - so he was just shot.
So when we got here to Flossenbürg, from about 5,000 people, we only arrived -