1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,432 IV: Es ist Samstag, der 20. Juli 2013, wir sind im Moment in Weiden in der Oberpfalz im Hotel Admira. 2 00:00:09,433 --> 00:00:12,432 Mein Name ist Michael Aue von der Medienwerkstatt Franken 3 00:00:12,433 --> 00:00:16,366 und wir führen jetzt ein Gespräch mit Ruth Kogut, 4 00:00:16,367 --> 00:00:25,832 die in den USA heute lebt, die am 07.09.1928 in Polen als Tochter einer jüdischen Familie geboren wurde 5 00:00:25,833 --> 00:00:51,666 und später in einem Dresdner Außenlager ah inhaftiert war. 6 00:00:51,667 --> 00:00:55,832 So if we are talking now, it's not only about the time in the camp. 7 00:00:55,833 --> 00:01:00,432 We are also interested a little bit ah where you are born, how you grown up, 8 00:01:00,433 --> 00:01:04,466 about your family, ah sorry, 9 00:01:04,467 --> 00:01:05,532 RK: And my.. 10 00:01:05,533 --> 00:01:07,332 IV: Sorry, can we start again? 11 00:01:07,333 --> 00:01:13,932 RK: I was born in Lodz, my mother's family all my, all her sisters and brothers they were ten kids, 12 00:01:13,933 --> 00:01:23,432 they all live in the same city, ah I started school, when I was five or six I don't remember {laughing}. 13 00:01:23,433 --> 00:01:31,699 I remember that in 1939 I had the normal life, family life, very close to my grandfather, 14 00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:38,466 very close and he had lots of grandchildren, I was his favorite {laughing}. 15 00:01:38,467 --> 00:01:47,332 Ah I remember coming back 1939, we went away, always went away to the country for fresh air for the kids, 16 00:01:47,333 --> 00:01:54,399 the kids should have not in the city, should be summertime in the country and people were talking about war, 17 00:01:54,400 --> 00:02:00,499 coming war and everybody says: "No, it's not going to happen. It's absolut not gonna happen." 18 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:09,732 It happened, we came back in 1939 I was ten going on eleven, on my birthday, 19 00:02:09,733 --> 00:02:15,066 which is September 7th, the Germans were there already {breathing}. 20 00:02:15,067 --> 00:02:21,499 And my life changed for, for not for the better {laughing}, not for the better {laughing}. 21 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:28,466 Ah I think my father ran away, because I don't know why, all the men ran away from Lodz 22 00:02:28,467 --> 00:02:33,399 which is, was the best city, because it was called Litzmannstadt and belonged to the German.. 23 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:42,032 And he went to Warsaw and was, the Warsaw was bombed completely, most of the men, were, ran away to Russia. 24 00:02:42,033 --> 00:02:47,199 My father said, "I am not going to Russia, I have a family home, that I am going back to Lodz." 25 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:54,732 So he came back to Lodz about, I don't know how many months later, we had to give all the radios away, 26 00:02:54,733 --> 00:02:58,332 bring it to a certain, telephone, you are not allowed to have telephone. 27 00:02:58,333 --> 00:03:08,266 My whole life changed completely, changed and we were told to leave our apartments, go to the ghetto, 28 00:03:08,267 --> 00:03:16,532 find a place to live, luckily, {breathing} my mother had a sister living in that area 29 00:03:16,533 --> 00:03:20,932 and she took us in, she took my, my grandparents in 30 00:03:20,933 --> 00:03:26,666 and she took my father and me and my mother, she gave us the kitchen to live in. 31 00:03:26,667 --> 00:03:33,599 My grandparents had the bedroom and my aunt and her family had the rest of the apartment. 32 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:45,232 {Coughing} And they told, everybody has to go to work, if you don't go to work, you don't get food. 33 00:03:45,233 --> 00:03:54,932 We used to go to a place get food for whole month and live on it made su.., my mother made sure that we have enough for the month, we, 34 00:03:54,933 --> 00:03:58,032 she made rations for every day, little bit, eat a little bit, 35 00:03:58,033 --> 00:04:00,632 so we have enough for food. 36 00:04:00,633 --> 00:04:05,832 My father, well I don't remember when he started working, but after a, yeah, I worked, 37 00:04:05,833 --> 00:04:19,832 I was then, in 1941, I remember I was twelve, thirteen and I had to work and I worked in the Schwachstrom bei Maika. 38 00:04:19,833 --> 00:04:25,032 I had to do Maika, you know that, how you do, I don't know how you call it. 39 00:04:25,033 --> 00:04:31,532 Maika has layers and you have to, to separate layers, ah whatever 40 00:04:31,533 --> 00:04:36,199 ah that, that ah, that resort closed. 41 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,632 They sent me to Sattler resort. 42 00:04:40,633 --> 00:04:49,632 I was sitting on a horse sewing heavy leather, with a special two needles going in and out, I was, that closed, 43 00:04:49,633 --> 00:04:55,899 now they have to find me another job, found me a job in a taylor shop, 44 00:04:55,900 --> 00:05:06,166 taylor shop and I did not like taylor shop, because the people, they were talking nasty, they were not nice people, 45 00:05:06,167 --> 00:05:12,732 low class people and every time I went home, I was crying: "I don't wanna work there, I don't wonna work there." 46 00:05:12,733 --> 00:05:18,932 But my father worked in a Metall resort {breathing}, he was a Meister there. 47 00:05:18,933 --> 00:05:24,366 Pepek's father, Pepek, you know Pepek Salomonovic? 48 00:05:24,367 --> 00:05:31,899 And, and Misha, worked in the same place, his father was an engineer. 49 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:39,499 And we still live in the kitchen, I don't know where Pepek lived, but my father found a place above the kitchen 50 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:48,399 that was empty and he asked somebody could he use that place, he built two apartments, 51 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,366 one for Misha and his, his parents, and I lived next door. 52 00:05:53,367 --> 00:05:58,966 So Misha was, ah Pepek was then five and I was, I was fifteen already {laughing}. 53 00:05:58,967 --> 00:06:05,032 So we had a place to live, we went out of the kitchen, everything was ok 54 00:06:05,033 --> 00:06:11,432 and life was to me, I was a young child, and I was, 55 00:06:11,433 --> 00:06:15,099 I was with my parents and I was well taken care of, 56 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:19,266 I did not, didn't realize how bad it could get. 57 00:06:19,267 --> 00:06:23,599 It was like a normal life in the ghetto, we couldn't get out from the ghetto, 58 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:25,566 we didn't wanna go out of the ghetto {breathing}. 59 00:06:25,567 --> 00:06:33,499 Ah I worked, I was hungry, all the time I was hungry {breathing}. 60 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:44,999 And then 19.., everything was actually alive and the ghetto was ah more or less..., we had, we had the calls to go out for the Appell 61 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,332 and they took away lot of people from, 62 00:06:48,333 --> 00:06:53,332 of to, to camps, but I had a cousin that, that, 63 00:06:53,333 --> 00:06:58,466 I don't know what he was tracking for somebody and he knew exactly when they're coming, 64 00:06:58,467 --> 00:07:05,132 so he told us to, to hide. 65 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:05,332 So we hid a few times and we were saved. 66 00:07:05,333 --> 00:07:16,299 {Breathing} Then came closing of the ghetto, {breathing} and my mother, I lived by my mother's mantra, 67 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:19,732 she was always saying "tomorrow will be better." 68 00:07:19,733 --> 00:07:46,532 And my whole life is {breathing} {crying} tomorrow will be better. 69 00:07:46,533 --> 00:07:50,166 Always tomorrow will be better, that's my life, tomorrow will be better. 70 00:07:50,167 --> 00:07:54,932 It was better, took a long while, got better, but this is my mantra, 71 00:07:54,933 --> 00:08:02,499 that's how I lived: "Tomorrow will, will be better." {laughing} Thank you {breathing}. 72 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:09,366 And we were in Metall resort too and they kept the whole group, for, 73 00:08:09,367 --> 00:08:18,432 we knew that we were going to, to a factory, work in a factory, they gave us overalls, navy blue, beautiful new overalls, 74 00:08:18,433 --> 00:08:26,132 we put on the overalls and the group was with children, that younger than I am {coughing}. 75 00:08:26,133 --> 00:08:30,299 Pepek was five, six, there was still a younger child there. 76 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:42,632 So we were lucky, we were, our husbands, brothers or whoever, we saw every day {breathing} under the, ah, the barbed wires. 77 00:08:42,633 --> 00:08:45,266 Every morning I saw my father. 78 00:08:45,267 --> 00:08:53,732 Ah, we had a, we had ah brand new barrack when we came from Lodz, brand new 79 00:08:53,733 --> 00:09:02,499 and the shavings were still on the floor and we had showers and everybody from my city, 80 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:06,899 the whole group was still very clean, we used to go..., cold water, cold water. 81 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:10,566 What was, September? September. 82 00:09:10,567 --> 00:09:14,799 Ah, we went and we showered, we cleaned up. 83 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:19,032 Ah the women still had their period, they used the shavings, 84 00:09:19,033 --> 00:09:25,666 but and then they gave us something in coffee or whatever that, that stopped the menstruation. 85 00:09:25,667 --> 00:09:28,099 IV: But you didn't know that at this time? 86 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:30,332 RK: No, we didn't, I just stopped, it stopped. 87 00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:38,399 Ah we had a long, long barrack and everybody slept on the floor 88 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:50,399 and we, then they send us a group Hungarian peo.., women from, group from, they were longer in the concentration camp, 89 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,166 they had lice, they had lice. 90 00:09:53,167 --> 00:09:55,732 And ah that spread all over the place. 91 00:09:55,733 --> 00:09:56,632 So we had lice. 92 00:09:56,633 --> 00:10:02,999 That way the funny thing is, we used to, four o' clock in the morning they, they had Appell, yes? 93 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:10,999 And we had to go, because they had to count, if any, anybody is missing, maybe somebody ran away {breathing}. 94 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,132 And we waited at four o'clock in the morning the stars was still out 95 00:10:15,133 --> 00:10:21,066 and we waited for the Commandant to come and count us, count us. 96 00:10:21,067 --> 00:10:28,266 Okay, so came maybe two hours later after we stood, cold, rain, whatever it was, 97 00:10:28,267 --> 00:10:33,332 I, for me it was like a, I don't know what it was, I had my mother, I was fine. 98 00:10:33,333 --> 00:10:35,632 I was absolutely fine. 99 00:10:35,633 --> 00:10:46,299 And then, we went for breakfast. Breakfast, we had sli.., a big slice of bread, this thick, coffee {breathing} 100 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:53,999 and we, nobody worked in that, in that camp, that we just waited for the factory to be ready to go to the factory. 101 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,999 IV: And may I just interrrupt you? 102 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,732 This camp was still close to Lodz? Or..? 103 00:10:59,733 --> 00:11:04,832 RK: No, no, because we were, Stutthof is on the Baltic Sea. 104 00:11:04,833 --> 00:11:06,432 IV: Ah this was Stutthof, we are talking about? 105 00:11:06,433 --> 00:11:07,999 RK: Stutthof, yeah. 106 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,332 IV: Maybe you can also tell how did you get there? 107 00:11:10,333 --> 00:11:11,666 RK: By train. 108 00:11:11,667 --> 00:11:12,332 IV: By train. 109 00:11:12,333 --> 00:11:17,366 RK: Yeah, from, from, from, Birkenau. 110 00:11:17,367 --> 00:11:22,299 We were in Birkenau the short while, just a short while. 111 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:29,699 They shaved my hair, they didn't shave my mother's, because there came an order, this group is not to have their hair shaved. 112 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,599 But I, I was first in the line, they shaved my hair. 113 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:41,066 That's so funny that you are asking me, because ah I didn't know how I look, when they took out, took me to the showers, 114 00:11:41,067 --> 00:11:46,032 there was a window that was half, and I could see myself, but I didn't know how I look like, 115 00:11:46,033 --> 00:11:51,399 so I had to wave my hand and I said: "Oh, what a nice bold hair" {laughing}. 116 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:59,099 Then we saw, we went out of the shower, we met our, my father and my father was crying, 117 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:02,299 he said: "Now, now I have a little boy." {laughing} 118 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:05,132 I guess he always wanted a little boy {laughing}. 119 00:12:05,133 --> 00:12:13,099 Well, that was ah, then they took us, we stayed two weeks, because I told you, the 120 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:16,932 new barracks so they probably were not ready for us, so we stayed there. 121 00:12:16,933 --> 00:12:21,732 But the funny thing is, that after we had our coffee, {breathing} 122 00:12:21,733 --> 00:12:24,832 we were talking about what we gonna do after the war. 123 00:12:24,833 --> 00:12:32,366 Okay, but, also we had to take of our clothing to, to kill the lice, 124 00:12:32,367 --> 00:12:39,066 which was funny, because we talking about what we gonna eat after the war and how much food we gonna have 125 00:12:39,067 --> 00:12:45,866 and new clothing that, my mother was always ah, a positive lady. 126 00:12:45,867 --> 00:12:48,599 She wa.., everything was positive, tomorrow will be better. 127 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:56,999 That was the mantra she was telling me and that told, the whole group that was sitting near us. {breathing} 128 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:01,066 The problem was that some people were very hungry, more than others 129 00:13:01,067 --> 00:13:07,399 and I think they probably ate some gras or whatever, so they had diarrhea. 130 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:14,866 We all slept on the floor, we had that long walk to come in, go to the showers, to the bathrooms. 131 00:13:14,867 --> 00:13:23,166 But at night, we had to use that to sleep on, we had sick women, with diarrhea, going to the, 132 00:13:23,167 --> 00:13:28,332 to the women's and messing up everybody with their diarrhea. 133 00:13:28,333 --> 00:13:29,832 That was awful. 134 00:13:29,833 --> 00:13:39,199 Then we have a Ukraine ah woman from Ukraine, that was a mad woman, she used to go with her belt with the buckle out 135 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,999 and hit everybody, she said: "Guilty or not guilty." 136 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,232 And hit everybody, just like that {laughing}, guilty, not guilty. 137 00:13:46,233 --> 00:13:51,332 She, one day she caught me, I, I didn't see my father one day. 138 00:13:51,333 --> 00:13:55,899 And I asked somebody: "Did you see my father? Is he okay?" 139 00:13:55,900 --> 00:14:01,366 And she caught me talking to him, she took me to her room and she beat me up with that buckle, 140 00:14:01,367 --> 00:14:08,232 because I dared to ask for my father {breathing}. 141 00:14:08,233 --> 00:14:15,132 {Laughing} There was..., also for, for lunch we got the soup, a soup, 142 00:14:15,133 --> 00:14:20,099 so with the soup, there was a problem, big problem we had with the soup. 143 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:25,166 We didn't know should we stay first in the line, maybe the soup will be too watery, 144 00:14:25,167 --> 00:14:28,232 if you.., maybe in the middle will be just right {laughing}. 145 00:14:28,233 --> 00:14:35,999 Maybe at the end will be nothing or very thick, that was the dilemma of the camp, okay? 146 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:45,999 Sometimes, there wa.., there was ah soup left over so that all the children come and get more soup, 147 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,966 but not through the door, you have to go through the window. 148 00:14:48,967 --> 00:14:51,932 I said: "I'm not going through the window." 149 00:14:51,933 --> 00:14:56,932 I said: "I cannot go through the door, I don't go through the window." {laughing} 150 00:14:56,933 --> 00:14:59,032 And I was hungry, okay. 151 00:14:59,033 --> 00:15:02,166 It was below me, I thought going through the window. 152 00:15:02,167 --> 00:15:09,866 And I didn't, my mother was angry with me, because she felt I need that extra soup. 153 00:15:09,867 --> 00:15:16,899 But she always, you know, we always managed to save one of, she had one bread 154 00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:25,266 and we took one bread that we have extra to, to throw over the barbed wires to my father, 155 00:15:25,267 --> 00:15:27,599 so he should have more. 156 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,466 But nobody caught us there, really, nobody. 157 00:15:31,467 --> 00:15:39,599 Ah, I don't remember how long we stayed there, then we finally, finally we got to Dresden, 158 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:46,466 got to Dresden and they took us to En.., Entlausung place. 159 00:15:46,467 --> 00:15:55,966 They really killed everything, everything, they gave us everything brand new, new clothes and we went to the factory. 160 00:15:55,967 --> 00:16:01,366 Factory was really much better than the concentration camp. 161 00:16:01,367 --> 00:16:10,232 We had bunk beds, but we had to share one, one bed, bunk bed, was very narrow, 162 00:16:10,233 --> 00:16:18,499 two people, so my, my, my mother and I decided {coughing} she should take the day, day time, work day time 163 00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:21,999 and I work night time, so we had the bed. 164 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,599 And we had Luftwaffe, Luftwaffe was taken care of us, not Nazi. 165 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:35,199 And we had one commander that used to, every morning he would come and say: "Good morning Damen und Herren." {laughing} 166 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:41,599 And was, was really, was decent, every, every Sunday we had an outing, 167 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:47,066 there was a little courtyard and I, I was able to see my father in the courtyard 168 00:16:47,067 --> 00:16:52,599 and ah my father looked like a bum on the Bowery. 169 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:58,732 He had a beret and he had an old coat and he was wearing a manaszka 170 00:16:58,733 --> 00:17:04,432 that, that, the thing where we had the soup in, and he was talking to me: 171 00:17:04,433 --> 00:17:10,132 "You know, after the war," he said to me "I'm gonna buy a car." 172 00:17:10,133 --> 00:17:12,099 A car? 173 00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:14,899 Talking about a car {laughing}? 174 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:20,632 And after, after we left, I said to my mother: "Do you think my fa.., dad is okay? 175 00:17:20,633 --> 00:17:23,099 Is he a little bit off?" 176 00:17:23,100 --> 00:17:25,166 "No", she said, "he meant it. 177 00:17:25,167 --> 00:17:26,499 He's going to buy a car." 178 00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:29,699 And he really, he did buy a car after the war. 179 00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:35,399 The first thing he did, was buy the Opel I told you about in the car. {Breathing} 180 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:41,432 So I consider my life ah tragic, but also very lucky. 181 00:17:41,433 --> 00:17:48,632 I was with my parents, I remained with my parents and I still live with: "Tomorrow will be better." 182 00:17:48,633 --> 00:17:56,899 So anything that bad happened to me, I said it's temporary and tomorrow will be better. 183 00:17:56,900 --> 00:17:59,499 IV: But you should have been very strong, just to believe in this mantra and.. 184 00:17:59,500 --> 00:18:06,332 RK: {Breathing} Yes, and, and now I also, if something goes wrong, I said: "Well, tomorrow'll be better." 185 00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:12,532 But it's, it's getting short and there will be no tomorrow, not too many tomorrows to be better. 186 00:18:12,533 --> 00:18:21,632 But, was for me, {breathing} I was very lucky considering my Schicksal, it was fantastic. 187 00:18:21,633 --> 00:18:26,499 I don't know, if it was God or my destiny or whatever. 188 00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:31,299 IV: So, can you remember how long you did stay in Dresden? 189 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:33,666 RK: Which, did you, how long what? 190 00:18:33,667 --> 00:18:37,032 IV: How long you've been staying in Dresden in the camp? 191 00:18:37,033 --> 00:18:50,499 RK: I, I was ah, all together I was nine months between ah, ah between Auschwitz and Stutthof and Dresden. 192 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:55,799 Then when Dresden was bombed, terribly bombed 193 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:00,332 we, they took us to a little camp near by Pirna, was it Pirna? 194 00:19:00,333 --> 00:19:06,832 I'm not, don't know, miserable camp, it was so bad, that again they gave us lice, 195 00:19:06,833 --> 00:19:10,466 and not only lice, but lice in, in your.., that's different, 196 00:19:10,467 --> 00:19:18,766 was awful, was, that was the worst thing, that we ever had and ah then we had to go again to Entlausung, 197 00:19:18,767 --> 00:19:25,199 we worked a little bit, we went back to the factory a little bit and then, when the Russians came close, 198 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,066 the Germans were running away with us. 199 00:19:28,067 --> 00:19:36,499 And they took us on the march, we marched, I think we stopped nearby Flossenbürg, probably. 200 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:42,566 And we slept on the ground, was I think was March, was still freezing. 201 00:19:42,567 --> 00:19:49,232 Remember my, my eyebrows were icy, when I woke up, because we slept on the ground. 202 00:19:49,233 --> 00:19:59,666 And I probably there was not, no room anymore in Flossenbürg, so they took us with, took us as far as ah Theresienstadt {breathing} 203 00:19:59,667 --> 00:20:03,632 and many people died on the way. 204 00:20:03,633 --> 00:20:10,399 So that's ah, that's I, anything else you would you like to know? 205 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:11,999 IV: So, what about your grandparents? 206 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:12,999 Just have you been.. 207 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,999 RK: Oh, my grandparents, my fa.., my grandfather, I slept with him every night 208 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:24,499 and one night, I, I woke up and I see they are covering the mirrow 209 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:26,899 and I couldn't understand why they are covering the mirrow, 210 00:20:26,900 --> 00:20:31,099 I didn't realize that Jewish people, when someone dies, they have to cover the mirrow, 211 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:33,466 I don't know why and I didn't know that. 212 00:20:33,467 --> 00:20:39,166 So, I woke up middle of the night and then I saw that my grandfather died, 213 00:20:39,167 --> 00:20:41,366 my grandmother died before that. 214 00:20:41,367 --> 00:20:44,866 She died of hunger. 215 00:20:44,867 --> 00:20:47,266 IV: And your grandfather was sick or also..? 216 00:20:47,267 --> 00:20:58,066 RK: My grandfather he died in 1943, he died. 217 00:20:58,067 --> 00:21:03,266 IV: And do you remember what kind of work did you do in Dresden in the factory? 218 00:21:03,267 --> 00:21:04,666 You, your mother, your father? 219 00:21:04,667 --> 00:21:07,599 RK: I used that, a machine, well the machine was going by itself. 220 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:15,132 We, we made ah those big ah, I don't know what you call them, bombs, 221 00:21:15,133 --> 00:21:21,332 but they were not bombs for, for, no but this big on, on I, I was working on, 222 00:21:21,333 --> 00:21:22,332 what, what do you call it? 223 00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:24,732 I don't know what you call it, the machine.. 224 00:21:24,733 --> 00:21:26,999 IV: Granaten, vielleicht waren es Granaten? 225 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:35,299 RK: Yes, I was just watching it, when, I knew when to stop it, when to start and ah what part to do 226 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:46,666 and I worked, yes {breathing}. We had a woman there, there was.., in the group, 227 00:21:46,667 --> 00:21:49,832 that was pregnant and she gave birth to a baby there. 228 00:21:49,833 --> 00:21:55,899 And they let the baby live. 229 00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:57,099 IV: And the baby survived? 230 00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:02,832 RK: Yes, they, they went to Israel, they went to Israel. 231 00:22:02,833 --> 00:22:07,999 IV: So and how, how the people ah treated you there in the camp? 232 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:14,666 So, there were femal, female officers or male ones, soldiers they? 233 00:22:14,667 --> 00:22:20,566 RK: I, besides telling us to go out four o'clock in the morning, they didn't bother much, 234 00:22:20,567 --> 00:22:26,666 ah just the woman, that, that was taking care of us in the barracks, she was miserable, 235 00:22:26,667 --> 00:22:31,799 she was just a, just walking around, guilty or not guilty? 236 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,332 Winna, czy nie winna? {speaking Polish} 237 00:22:33,333 --> 00:22:37,699 That's all what she was saying and hitting everybody with the buckle, with the buckle. 238 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:47,799 {Breathing} Then I met my husband there in a Dresd.., in Theresienstadt, I met my husband and he had Typhoid, 239 00:22:47,800 --> 00:23:00,166 so I, I didn't know him, because he was from Warsaw and he was about six year older than I was. 240 00:23:00,167 --> 00:23:07,066 And that was a big difference then, and I was age 16, he was already 22. 241 00:23:07,067 --> 00:23:16,766 And when they, they closed Theresienstadt, they took us on a train and we.., supposedly we go to Israel. 242 00:23:16,767 --> 00:23:24,199 We're going to Israel, okay, go to Israel, but to go to Israel, we had to go first to Italy, 243 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:33,799 stay in the camp in Italy, wait to go to Cyprus, Cyprus to go to Israel. 244 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:41,866 Well, we come to Austria and there is an order, "there is no room for you in Italy", going back to Germany, 245 00:23:41,867 --> 00:23:52,732 put us in, in Schellenburg, no in ah, now I ah Landsberg, Landsberg {laughing}, 246 00:23:52,733 --> 00:23:55,099 Schellenberg was where the Hotel was. 247 00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:59,832 Landsberg am Lech and.. 248 00:23:59,833 --> 00:24:01,832 IV: It was a kind of DP-camp or? 249 00:24:01,833 --> 00:24:06,599 RK: Yeah, it's a DP-camp open, but free, you could co.., come and go, 250 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:14,332 but they kept us together and my mot.., my mother took care of my husband then, 251 00:24:14,333 --> 00:24:17,599 because he was still very sick. 252 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,399 And he left early, he had family in the United States, 253 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,032 and he was writing to my mother, he was very close with my mother. 254 00:24:27,033 --> 00:24:32,199 And she wrote a letter to him I think, we have to go to Israel, we have no place else to go. 255 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:38,499 He says: "No, don't go to Israel." He sent the letter back, "don't go to Israel, because it's bad there, 256 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:41,399 you cannot get a job, there're no apartments available. 257 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,899 I'll ask my", he said, "I'll ask my uncle, he'll sent papers for you." 258 00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:53,466 That's what happened, he sent papers and we came and I married him {laughing}. 259 00:24:53,467 --> 00:24:54,366 IV: What year? 260 00:24:54,367 --> 00:24:54,666 RK: 1950.. 261 00:24:54,667 --> 00:24:58,332 IV: Maybe you tell just a little bit more, how you get to the States? 262 00:24:58,333 --> 00:24:59,532 RK: 1950. 263 00:24:59,533 --> 00:25:00,166 IV: 1950. 264 00:25:00,167 --> 00:25:08,499 RK: I came on a, on the boat, called General Hahn and this so just so happened, 265 00:25:08,500 --> 00:25:17,899 like my name Kogut means rooster, rooster, a rooster what is a "Hahn" in German, yes? 266 00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:22,699 I came on a Hahn to marry a Hahn. 267 00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:25,132 IV: {laughing} And your parents? 268 00:25:25,133 --> 00:25:29,432 RK: My par.., yes, they were with me all the time. 269 00:25:29,433 --> 00:25:43,166 And they died in 1990, nine months, nine months later, first my mother died, then nine months later my father died. 270 00:25:43,167 --> 00:25:47,266 They couldn't live without each other. 271 00:25:47,267 --> 00:25:52,932 But my mother kept everybody on the up {breathing}, everything was 272 00:25:52,933 --> 00:25:55,632 "Tomorrow will be better, tomorrow will be better." 273 00:25:55,633 --> 00:25:59,532 I used to ask her in, in Stutthof... 274 00:25:59,533 --> 00:26:06,166 I said: "When the war is over, how many rols you gonna give me for breakfast?" 275 00:26:06,167 --> 00:26:08,332 So she was say: "Well, I give you one." 276 00:26:08,333 --> 00:26:10,499 I said: "One? I need four." 277 00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,932 You know what, after the, after the war was over, I was never hungry anymore. 278 00:26:14,933 --> 00:26:17,666 There was food, that was enough for me. 279 00:26:17,667 --> 00:26:22,299 And some people ate too much and they got s.., very sick. 280 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:28,366 I stop eating: "Oh, there is enough food, wonderful, I don't need too much food." 281 00:26:28,367 --> 00:26:31,166 But I was bargaining with her, that "no, I don't want one role, 282 00:26:31,167 --> 00:26:37,166 I need at least four," I said to her. {breathing} 283 00:26:37,167 --> 00:26:40,999 IV: Going back in the, your thoughts to this time, what do you think, 284 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,999 what was the most terrible, the hardest thing, you had to go through? 285 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,099 During this last two, three years? 286 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:55,666 RK: The hardest thing was really that little, that little camp that I went to, 287 00:26:55,667 --> 00:27:02,666 because we put us to sleep in a silo, that we had to crawl into, and I thought that was the gas chamber. 288 00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:07,899 And I thought we'll never crawl out of there and that was such a miserable place. 289 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,366 That was like the most miserable place I was ever in. 290 00:27:11,367 --> 00:27:17,999 That was, I think, that was the hard, and, and I, I didn't, I took everything like for granted, 291 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,232 as has to be like this, has to be like this. 292 00:27:20,233 --> 00:27:24,766 And since I was with my mother that was so wonderful. 293 00:27:24,767 --> 00:27:29,999 I, I she, I knew she is gonna take care of me. 294 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:40,999 And my father I saw every day, every day or every Sunday in the, in the, in, in, in Dresden {breathing}. 295 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:46,232 IV: And did you know anything about ah the existence of gas chambers? 296 00:27:46,233 --> 00:27:52,199 RK: Oh, yes, oh, I, we, we heard it in the ghetto and nobody believed it, ach, 297 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:58,799 because I think they sent us some people from, from a concentration camp, I don't know how. 298 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:06,032 They were behind some place, not in the ghetto, but some place behind and they were telling us stories 299 00:28:06,033 --> 00:28:08,599 and we thought they were cra.., absolutely crazy. 300 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,032 And I couldn't, we couldn't believe it there is no such a thing, 301 00:28:12,033 --> 00:28:16,699 there is no such a thing as concentration camp, not, not, in the ghetto nobody believed. 302 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:22,166 But then in 1939 nobody believed there is gonna be a war. 303 00:28:22,167 --> 00:28:32,466 There was a war and my city wasn't bombed, because it was Litzmannstadt, it was German. {Breathing} 304 00:28:32,467 --> 00:28:40,166 So that was really, the, the worst, the worst point and I was just lucky that I, we had a group 305 00:28:40,167 --> 00:28:48,266 that they kept together with children, with wives and that was, that was very unusual, very unusual. 306 00:28:48,267 --> 00:28:53,766 So, God was good to me or whatever was good to me, whatever God or, 307 00:28:53,767 --> 00:28:57,966 or destiny or whatever you call it. 308 00:28:57,967 --> 00:29:03,999 IV: And af.., after starting this new life in the US, 309 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,566 ah did you think a lot of those things of the five past year? 310 00:29:08,567 --> 00:29:15,032 RK: No, I, I never, I never went, I, I wanted to I, I not that I wanted to forget, 311 00:29:15,033 --> 00:29:19,499 but I didn't delve on it, I just didn't, I just, it's a new life. 312 00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,399 I'm not gonna live with the past, I'm gonna live with the future. 313 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,166 But my husband, my husband was constantly thinking and, 314 00:29:26,167 --> 00:29:28,232 and reading and everything back.. 315 00:29:28,233 --> 00:29:31,899 I said: "Don't do that, don't do it to yourself, you make yourself miserable. 316 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:35,632 Live with, with your future, not with the past. 317 00:29:35,633 --> 00:29:39,199 No, no I, I didn't wanna go to the past, I wanted to go 318 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,466 and have ah forget, no that I wanted to forget, 319 00:29:42,467 --> 00:29:45,166 or was ashamed to tell anybody I was in concen.., 320 00:29:45,167 --> 00:29:50,766 I just figured I have a new life, I was 21 when I came to this country. 321 00:29:50,767 --> 00:29:54,199 I wanted to have, have a brand new life. 322 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,999 Because my mother said: "Tomorrow'll be better." 323 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,566 And that was better. 324 00:29:59,567 --> 00:30:05,799 So that's how I live, tomorrow will be better. 325 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,599 IV: That's a good mantra. 326 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,299 And I think ah it also fits with the United States. 327 00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:12,732 RK: Yes. 328 00:30:12,733 --> 00:30:13,399 IV: So I think that's.. 329 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:19,999 RK: A wonderful country, absolutely the best country there is. 330 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:27,766 IV: So, you told me driving here with the car, your husband started to hold lectures 331 00:30:27,767 --> 00:30:32,799 and talk about this and teach children about this, his past and what he.. 332 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,632 RK: My, my, my husband, yes, yes, he was.. 333 00:30:35,633 --> 00:30:37,166 IV: Maybe you tell a little bit about him..? 334 00:30:37,167 --> 00:30:44,232 RK: Ah, I'd, he was, I know that he went to school and the kids loved every story he tell them, 335 00:30:44,233 --> 00:30:52,599 every and they would send him "Thank You" letters, wrote letters to him and he loved to talk about it. 336 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,066 He would really, lived with his past. 337 00:30:56,067 --> 00:31:05,366 And also he, he painted, he was a painter, he liked to copy all the good artists, 338 00:31:05,367 --> 00:31:14,532 we are, had, there was not one room, not, no room in my house that a painting wasn't hanging, 339 00:31:14,533 --> 00:31:17,866 so he went through a lot, he, my husband went through a lot. 340 00:31:17,867 --> 00:31:20,199 I was the lucky one. 341 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,032 He had a miserable life. 342 00:31:23,033 --> 00:31:32,832 He was in the Warsaw ghetto, he was in the, helping the Uprising, he ran out from, from a train 343 00:31:32,833 --> 00:31:38,132 train to Treblinka, which was, you didn't come out of that camp, 344 00:31:38,133 --> 00:31:44,799 that was a death camp, he managed to run out fro.., you know through the old little window and ah... 345 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,299 yeah, he ran, he hadn't, he ran away. 346 00:31:48,300 --> 00:31:52,332 And he went back to Warsaw. 347 00:31:52,333 --> 00:31:57,599 My, is my ah interview a little too short? 348 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,332 IV: Everyone is telling the story he wants to tell. 349 00:32:00,333 --> 00:32:04,599 RK: Ah just that I, I, I like to remember good, good stuff. 350 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:12,566 But I know that the camp that I, we had to go, because after the, after the bombing in Dresden, 351 00:32:12,567 --> 00:32:16,932 that was the most horrible experience in my whole life. 352 00:32:16,933 --> 00:32:25,266 That was absolutely, {breathing} I don't even wanna think about that silo that I have to crawl into, 353 00:32:25,267 --> 00:32:32,832 that was and all the people filthy, filthy, miserable {breathing} what that was absolutely, 354 00:32:32,833 --> 00:32:41,999 because they kept us nice, they kept us, because they wanted men to work in that Metallfabrik. 355 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:48,499 IV: There are things ah as a child or a young woman seeing also a lot of people dying every day, 356 00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:48,932 I think that was a experience.. 357 00:32:48,933 --> 00:32:57,766 RK: Oh yes, yes they died, they died of different sicknesses I don't know, I told you about the women that had diarrhea 358 00:32:57,767 --> 00:33:03,999 that died of the diarrhea that, that, that was, that was bad, that was... 359 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:15,899 But, you know, I just at, I always thought about the good points not, not the miserable parts. 360 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:18,066 IV: So, optimistic kind of. 361 00:33:18,067 --> 00:33:18,666 RK: Mh, yeah. 362 00:33:18,667 --> 00:33:19,599 IV: Optimistic.. 363 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:25,899 RK: Well, my, my mother I take after my mother and she was optimistic, she was.. 364 00:33:25,900 --> 00:33:36,999 She was ah, constantly, constantly telling everybody, "Don't worry, tomorrow, tomorrow." {laughing}, it was always a tomorrow. 365 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,066 IV: And then ah you got children in the United States? 366 00:33:40,067 --> 00:33:41,099 RK: Oh, yes, yes. 367 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:42,032 IV: Can you just tell a little bit? 368 00:33:42,033 --> 00:33:50,066 RK: I have, I have, I have ah I have a son and a daughter and they gave me grandchildren, 369 00:33:50,067 --> 00:33:59,399 I have ah {breathing} I, my daughter gave me a, son also, a grandson and a granddaughter 370 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:06,166 and they in turn gave me some great-grandchildren, so I have three great-grandchildren, 371 00:34:06,167 --> 00:34:14,766 the oldest is seven, he is a boy, a little genius boy {laughing}, absolutely genius {laughing}. 372 00:34:14,767 --> 00:34:22,899 And a little girl that's ah four and now my granddaughter has a little girl, 373 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:32,066 she is two, so I have three great-grandchildren and they, they doing, all doing well, 374 00:34:32,067 --> 00:34:37,899 they absolutely doing well, they, they thrive in the United States. 375 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:44,232 Because if it wasn't for the war, I would still be with, with the Polish people that hated the Jews 376 00:34:44,233 --> 00:34:48,632 constantly reminded us we should leave ah {breathing}.. 377 00:34:48,633 --> 00:34:54,599 IV: You, you really can remember this, how the Polish people treat you, maybe you just talk a little bit about this. 378 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,799 RK: That was unbelievable how they hated the Jews, they had signs on the wall, 379 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:06,199 we should leave {breathing}, we should leave, but there then they had signs: 380 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,799 "You Jews leave, but leave the beautiful Jewish women here." {laughing} 381 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,699 Signs, stupid signs, stupid signs, hateful. 382 00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:20,166 Ah, we had public schools and before the war, public schools, 383 00:35:20,167 --> 00:35:26,999 but they, they separated we, we went to a public school for Jewish children, 384 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,899 not Catholic children that mix with Jewish children. 385 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:39,432 And I think it was ah the priest, the church that taught them how to hate the Jews. 386 00:35:39,433 --> 00:35:47,632 Because naturally the Jews killed Jesus and the Jews killed the Christian children, 387 00:35:47,633 --> 00:35:53,032 because they needed blood for the Matze to make Matze with the blood. 388 00:35:53,033 --> 00:36:00,966 And blo.., blood is hateful for the Jews that's when we, they make kosher meat, 389 00:36:00,967 --> 00:36:07,866 they make sure that the blood runs out, that's why they make it kosher that the salt makes the blood run out. 390 00:36:07,867 --> 00:36:12,999 So there was all and those, all the lies where done by I im.., I imagine. 391 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:21,032 I would say that done by priests, the church did that, taught them how to hate the Jew, I don't know, 392 00:36:21,033 --> 00:36:24,999 Hitler managed to tell everybody to kill the Jew. 393 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:31,666 And the German people were very good to the Jewish people they, we, they were allowed to go to University, 394 00:36:31,667 --> 00:36:39,399 they were well educated till Hitler came and Poland was not, you couldn't go to University, 395 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:47,366 you had to go out of, to Austria, to France, to Germany, if you wanted to be educated that's where you had to go. 396 00:36:47,367 --> 00:36:54,166 Jew had no, no reason to be in University, they were ha.., hateful people, 397 00:36:54,167 --> 00:36:59,232 they still are, they still are, they may be a little quiet about it, 398 00:36:59,233 --> 00:37:06,532 but inwardly they really they hate, well everybody else hates, hates the Jews, so {laughing}. 399 00:37:06,533 --> 00:37:10,999 But we managed to survive, we managed to survive. 400 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,899 IV: And in the United States today how do you feel? 401 00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:20,032 RK: There is some, there is some people, I might, I don't know, but they, but they're not vocal about it, 402 00:37:20,033 --> 00:37:25,832 so it's not, they keep it to themselves. 403 00:37:25,833 --> 00:37:28,699 IV: And so you can feel fine? 404 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,132 RK: I had no problem being Jewish there at all, no, no. 405 00:37:32,133 --> 00:37:39,599 Well I lived in a community on the ocean where we had Italian and Irish and Jewish 406 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,399 and ah all different nationalities, we lived in harmony. 407 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:52,832 Oh by the way, I forgot to tell you, that we had a storm in 1912 {means: 2012} called Sandy, 408 00:37:52,833 --> 00:38:01,366 ah which broke my house, my house was destroyed by the storm, I lived right on top of the beach. 409 00:38:01,367 --> 00:38:10,732 And my whole living room wall was brick and glass, the whole stretch and it, the wall, 410 00:38:10,733 --> 00:38:19,632 the, the sea wall broke into my house and broke the whole, all the windows and all the walls to my living room, 411 00:38:19,633 --> 00:38:24,199 but every, everything else and I was there, I was in the house while it happened. 412 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:31,332 Some people, my neighbours broke the kitchen window, came upstairs to the bedroom, 413 00:38:31,333 --> 00:38:35,966 I was in the bedroom, I didn't think it was so terrible {laughing}. 414 00:38:35,967 --> 00:38:42,699 And they took me out, they took me out from the house. 415 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:49,532 So I survived something else and it, it, before that my husband died, he had a car accident. 416 00:38:49,533 --> 00:38:59,499 I was sick for three month after that car accident and he died, it was another "Tomorrow will be better". 417 00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:01,666 And that's how I live, tomorrow will be better. 418 00:39:01,667 --> 00:39:09,699 IV: Yeah, so, I hope you can say this mantra many years more, many more years, every day new. 419 00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:11,066 RK: Thank you. 420 00:39:11,067 --> 00:39:13,032 IV: Thank you for giving us the interview. 421 00:39:13,033 --> 00:39:13,832 RK: Thank you. 422 00:39:13,833 --> 00:39:23,833 IV: It was great meeting you, thank you.