WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.432 IV: Es ist Samstag, der 20. Juli 2013, wir sind im Moment in Weiden in der Oberpfalz im Hotel Admira. 2 00:00:09.433 --> 00:00:12.432 Mein Name ist Michael Aue von der Medienwerkstatt Franken 3 00:00:12.433 --> 00:00:16.366 und wir führen jetzt ein Gespräch mit Ruth Kogut, 4 00:00:16.367 --> 00:00:25.832 die in den USA heute lebt, die am 07.09.1928 in Polen als Tochter einer jüdischen Familie geboren wurde 5 00:00:25.833 --> 00:00:51.666 und später in einem Dresdner Außenlager ah inhaftiert war. 6 00:00:51.667 --> 00:00:55.832 So if we are talking now, it's not only about the time in the camp. 7 00:00:55.833 --> 00:01:00.432 We are also interested a little bit ah where you are born, how you grown up, 8 00:01:00.433 --> 00:01:04.466 about your family, ah sorry, 9 00:01:04.467 --> 00:01:05.532 RK: And my.. 10 00:01:05.533 --> 00:01:07.332 IV: Sorry, can we start again? 11 00:01:07.333 --> 00:01:13.932 RK: I was born in Lodz, my mother's family all my, all her sisters and brothers they were ten kids, 12 00:01:13.933 --> 00:01:23.432 they all live in the same city, ah I started school, when I was five or six I don't remember {laughing}. 13 00:01:23.433 --> 00:01:31.699 I remember that in 1939 I had the normal life, family life, very close to my grandfather, 14 00:01:31.700 --> 00:01:38.466 very close and he had lots of grandchildren, I was his favorite {laughing}. 15 00:01:38.467 --> 00:01:47.332 Ah I remember coming back 1939, we went away, always went away to the country for fresh air for the kids, 16 00:01:47.333 --> 00:01:54.399 the kids should have not in the city, should be summertime in the country and people were talking about war, 17 00:01:54.400 --> 00:02:00.499 coming war and everybody says: "No, it's not going to happen. It's absolut not gonna happen." 18 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:09.732 It happened, we came back in 1939 I was ten going on eleven, on my birthday, 19 00:02:09.733 --> 00:02:15.066 which is September 7th, the Germans were there already {breathing}. 20 00:02:15.067 --> 00:02:21.499 And my life changed for, for not for the better {laughing}, not for the better {laughing}. 21 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:28.466 Ah I think my father ran away, because I don't know why, all the men ran away from Lodz 22 00:02:28.467 --> 00:02:33.399 which is, was the best city, because it was called Litzmannstadt and belonged to the German.. 23 00:02:33.400 --> 00:02:42.032 And he went to Warsaw and was, the Warsaw was bombed completely, most of the men, were, ran away to Russia. 24 00:02:42.033 --> 00:02:47.199 My father said, "I am not going to Russia, I have a family home, that I am going back to Lodz." 25 00:02:47.200 --> 00:02:54.732 So he came back to Lodz about, I don't know how many months later, we had to give all the radios away, 26 00:02:54.733 --> 00:02:58.332 bring it to a certain, telephone, you are not allowed to have telephone. 27 00:02:58.333 --> 00:03:08.266 My whole life changed completely, changed and we were told to leave our apartments, go to the ghetto, 28 00:03:08.267 --> 00:03:16.532 find a place to live, luckily, {breathing} my mother had a sister living in that area 29 00:03:16.533 --> 00:03:20.932 and she took us in, she took my, my grandparents in 30 00:03:20.933 --> 00:03:26.666 and she took my father and me and my mother, she gave us the kitchen to live in. 31 00:03:26.667 --> 00:03:33.599 My grandparents had the bedroom and my aunt and her family had the rest of the apartment. 32 00:03:33.600 --> 00:03:45.232 {Coughing} And they told, everybody has to go to work, if you don't go to work, you don't get food. 33 00:03:45.233 --> 00:03:54.932 We used to go to a place get food for whole month and live on it made su.., my mother made sure that we have enough for the month, we, 34 00:03:54.933 --> 00:03:58.032 she made rations for every day, little bit, eat a little bit, 35 00:03:58.033 --> 00:04:00.632 so we have enough for food. 36 00:04:00.633 --> 00:04:05.832 My father, well I don't remember when he started working, but after a, yeah, I worked, 37 00:04:05.833 --> 00:04:19.832 I was then, in 1941, I remember I was twelve, thirteen and I had to work and I worked in the Schwachstrom bei Maika. 38 00:04:19.833 --> 00:04:25.032 I had to do Maika, you know that, how you do, I don't know how you call it. 39 00:04:25.033 --> 00:04:31.532 Maika has layers and you have to, to separate layers, ah whatever 40 00:04:31.533 --> 00:04:36.199 ah that, that ah, that resort closed. 41 00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:40.632 They sent me to Sattler resort. 42 00:04:40.633 --> 00:04:49.632 I was sitting on a horse sewing heavy leather, with a special two needles going in and out, I was, that closed, 43 00:04:49.633 --> 00:04:55.899 now they have to find me another job, found me a job in a taylor shop, 44 00:04:55.900 --> 00:05:06.166 taylor shop and I did not like taylor shop, because the people, they were talking nasty, they were not nice people, 45 00:05:06.167 --> 00:05:12.732 low class people and every time I went home, I was crying: "I don't wanna work there, I don't wonna work there." 46 00:05:12.733 --> 00:05:18.932 But my father worked in a Metall resort {breathing}, he was a Meister there. 47 00:05:18.933 --> 00:05:24.366 Pepek's father, Pepek, you know Pepek Salomonovic? 48 00:05:24.367 --> 00:05:31.899 And, and Misha, worked in the same place, his father was an engineer. 49 00:05:31.900 --> 00:05:39.499 And we still live in the kitchen, I don't know where Pepek lived, but my father found a place above the kitchen 50 00:05:39.500 --> 00:05:48.399 that was empty and he asked somebody could he use that place, he built two apartments, 51 00:05:48.400 --> 00:05:53.366 one for Misha and his, his parents, and I lived next door. 52 00:05:53.367 --> 00:05:58.966 So Misha was, ah Pepek was then five and I was, I was fifteen already {laughing}. 53 00:05:58.967 --> 00:06:05.032 So we had a place to live, we went out of the kitchen, everything was ok 54 00:06:05.033 --> 00:06:11.432 and life was to me, I was a young child, and I was, 55 00:06:11.433 --> 00:06:15.099 I was with my parents and I was well taken care of, 56 00:06:15.100 --> 00:06:19.266 I did not, didn't realize how bad it could get. 57 00:06:19.267 --> 00:06:23.599 It was like a normal life in the ghetto, we couldn't get out from the ghetto, 58 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:25.566 we didn't wanna go out of the ghetto {breathing}. 59 00:06:25.567 --> 00:06:33.499 Ah I worked, I was hungry, all the time I was hungry {breathing}. 60 00:06:33.500 --> 00:06:44.999 And then 19.., everything was actually alive and the ghetto was ah more or less..., we had, we had the calls to go out for the Appell 61 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.332 and they took away lot of people from, 62 00:06:48.333 --> 00:06:53.332 of to, to camps, but I had a cousin that, that, 63 00:06:53.333 --> 00:06:58.466 I don't know what he was tracking for somebody and he knew exactly when they're coming, 64 00:06:58.467 --> 00:07:05.132 so he told us to, to hide. 65 00:07:05.133 --> 00:07:05.332 So we hid a few times and we were saved. 66 00:07:05.333 --> 00:07:16.299 {Breathing} Then came closing of the ghetto, {breathing} and my mother, I lived by my mother's mantra, 67 00:07:16.300 --> 00:07:19.732 she was always saying "tomorrow will be better." 68 00:07:19.733 --> 00:07:46.532 And my whole life is {breathing} {crying} tomorrow will be better. 69 00:07:46.533 --> 00:07:50.166 Always tomorrow will be better, that's my life, tomorrow will be better. 70 00:07:50.167 --> 00:07:54.932 It was better, took a long while, got better, but this is my mantra, 71 00:07:54.933 --> 00:08:02.499 that's how I lived: "Tomorrow will, will be better." {laughing} Thank you {breathing}. 72 00:08:02.500 --> 00:08:09.366 And we were in Metall resort too and they kept the whole group, for, 73 00:08:09.367 --> 00:08:18.432 we knew that we were going to, to a factory, work in a factory, they gave us overalls, navy blue, beautiful new overalls, 74 00:08:18.433 --> 00:08:26.132 we put on the overalls and the group was with children, that younger than I am {coughing}. 75 00:08:26.133 --> 00:08:30.299 Pepek was five, six, there was still a younger child there. 76 00:08:30.300 --> 00:08:42.632 So we were lucky, we were, our husbands, brothers or whoever, we saw every day {breathing} under the, ah, the barbed wires. 77 00:08:42.633 --> 00:08:45.266 Every morning I saw my father. 78 00:08:45.267 --> 00:08:53.732 Ah, we had a, we had ah brand new barrack when we came from Lodz, brand new 79 00:08:53.733 --> 00:09:02.499 and the shavings were still on the floor and we had showers and everybody from my city, 80 00:09:02.500 --> 00:09:06.899 the whole group was still very clean, we used to go..., cold water, cold water. 81 00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:10.566 What was, September? September. 82 00:09:10.567 --> 00:09:14.799 Ah, we went and we showered, we cleaned up. 83 00:09:14.800 --> 00:09:19.032 Ah the women still had their period, they used the shavings, 84 00:09:19.033 --> 00:09:25.666 but and then they gave us something in coffee or whatever that, that stopped the menstruation. 85 00:09:25.667 --> 00:09:28.099 IV: But you didn't know that at this time? 86 00:09:28.100 --> 00:09:30.332 RK: No, we didn't, I just stopped, it stopped. 87 00:09:30.333 --> 00:09:38.399 Ah we had a long, long barrack and everybody slept on the floor 88 00:09:38.400 --> 00:09:50.399 and we, then they send us a group Hungarian peo.., women from, group from, they were longer in the concentration camp, 89 00:09:50.400 --> 00:09:53.166 they had lice, they had lice. 90 00:09:53.167 --> 00:09:55.732 And ah that spread all over the place. 91 00:09:55.733 --> 00:09:56.632 So we had lice. 92 00:09:56.633 --> 00:10:02.999 That way the funny thing is, we used to, four o' clock in the morning they, they had Appell, yes? 93 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:10.999 And we had to go, because they had to count, if any, anybody is missing, maybe somebody ran away {breathing}. 94 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.132 And we waited at four o'clock in the morning the stars was still out 95 00:10:15.133 --> 00:10:21.066 and we waited for the Commandant to come and count us, count us. 96 00:10:21.067 --> 00:10:28.266 Okay, so came maybe two hours later after we stood, cold, rain, whatever it was, 97 00:10:28.267 --> 00:10:33.332 I, for me it was like a, I don't know what it was, I had my mother, I was fine. 98 00:10:33.333 --> 00:10:35.632 I was absolutely fine. 99 00:10:35.633 --> 00:10:46.299 And then, we went for breakfast. Breakfast, we had sli.., a big slice of bread, this thick, coffee {breathing} 100 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:53.999 and we, nobody worked in that, in that camp, that we just waited for the factory to be ready to go to the factory. 101 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:55.999 IV: And may I just interrrupt you? 102 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:59.732 This camp was still close to Lodz? Or..? 103 00:10:59.733 --> 00:11:04.832 RK: No, no, because we were, Stutthof is on the Baltic Sea. 104 00:11:04.833 --> 00:11:06.432 IV: Ah this was Stutthof, we are talking about? 105 00:11:06.433 --> 00:11:07.999 RK: Stutthof, yeah. 106 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.332 IV: Maybe you can also tell how did you get there? 107 00:11:10.333 --> 00:11:11.666 RK: By train. 108 00:11:11.667 --> 00:11:12.332 IV: By train. 109 00:11:12.333 --> 00:11:17.366 RK: Yeah, from, from, from, Birkenau. 110 00:11:17.367 --> 00:11:22.299 We were in Birkenau the short while, just a short while. 111 00:11:22.300 --> 00:11:29.699 They shaved my hair, they didn't shave my mother's, because there came an order, this group is not to have their hair shaved. 112 00:11:29.700 --> 00:11:32.599 But I, I was first in the line, they shaved my hair. 113 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:41.066 That's so funny that you are asking me, because ah I didn't know how I look, when they took out, took me to the showers, 114 00:11:41.067 --> 00:11:46.032 there was a window that was half, and I could see myself, but I didn't know how I look like, 115 00:11:46.033 --> 00:11:51.399 so I had to wave my hand and I said: "Oh, what a nice bold hair" {laughing}. 116 00:11:51.400 --> 00:11:59.099 Then we saw, we went out of the shower, we met our, my father and my father was crying, 117 00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:02.299 he said: "Now, now I have a little boy." {laughing} 118 00:12:02.300 --> 00:12:05.132 I guess he always wanted a little boy {laughing}. 119 00:12:05.133 --> 00:12:13.099 Well, that was ah, then they took us, we stayed two weeks, because I told you, the 120 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:16.932 new barracks so they probably were not ready for us, so we stayed there. 121 00:12:16.933 --> 00:12:21.732 But the funny thing is, that after we had our coffee, {breathing} 122 00:12:21.733 --> 00:12:24.832 we were talking about what we gonna do after the war. 123 00:12:24.833 --> 00:12:32.366 Okay, but, also we had to take of our clothing to, to kill the lice, 124 00:12:32.367 --> 00:12:39.066 which was funny, because we talking about what we gonna eat after the war and how much food we gonna have 125 00:12:39.067 --> 00:12:45.866 and new clothing that, my mother was always ah, a positive lady. 126 00:12:45.867 --> 00:12:48.599 She wa.., everything was positive, tomorrow will be better. 127 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:56.999 That was the mantra she was telling me and that told, the whole group that was sitting near us. {breathing} 128 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:01.066 The problem was that some people were very hungry, more than others 129 00:13:01.067 --> 00:13:07.399 and I think they probably ate some gras or whatever, so they had diarrhea. 130 00:13:07.400 --> 00:13:14.866 We all slept on the floor, we had that long walk to come in, go to the showers, to the bathrooms. 131 00:13:14.867 --> 00:13:23.166 But at night, we had to use that to sleep on, we had sick women, with diarrhea, going to the, 132 00:13:23.167 --> 00:13:28.332 to the women's and messing up everybody with their diarrhea. 133 00:13:28.333 --> 00:13:29.832 That was awful. 134 00:13:29.833 --> 00:13:39.199 Then we have a Ukraine ah woman from Ukraine, that was a mad woman, she used to go with her belt with the buckle out 135 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:42.999 and hit everybody, she said: "Guilty or not guilty." 136 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:46.232 And hit everybody, just like that {laughing}, guilty, not guilty. 137 00:13:46.233 --> 00:13:51.332 She, one day she caught me, I, I didn't see my father one day. 138 00:13:51.333 --> 00:13:55.899 And I asked somebody: "Did you see my father? Is he okay?" 139 00:13:55.900 --> 00:14:01.366 And she caught me talking to him, she took me to her room and she beat me up with that buckle, 140 00:14:01.367 --> 00:14:08.232 because I dared to ask for my father {breathing}. 141 00:14:08.233 --> 00:14:15.132 {Laughing} There was..., also for, for lunch we got the soup, a soup, 142 00:14:15.133 --> 00:14:20.099 so with the soup, there was a problem, big problem we had with the soup. 143 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:25.166 We didn't know should we stay first in the line, maybe the soup will be too watery, 144 00:14:25.167 --> 00:14:28.232 if you.., maybe in the middle will be just right {laughing}. 145 00:14:28.233 --> 00:14:35.999 Maybe at the end will be nothing or very thick, that was the dilemma of the camp, okay? 146 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:45.999 Sometimes, there wa.., there was ah soup left over so that all the children come and get more soup, 147 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.966 but not through the door, you have to go through the window. 148 00:14:48.967 --> 00:14:51.932 I said: "I'm not going through the window." 149 00:14:51.933 --> 00:14:56.932 I said: "I cannot go through the door, I don't go through the window." {laughing} 150 00:14:56.933 --> 00:14:59.032 And I was hungry, okay. 151 00:14:59.033 --> 00:15:02.166 It was below me, I thought going through the window. 152 00:15:02.167 --> 00:15:09.866 And I didn't, my mother was angry with me, because she felt I need that extra soup. 153 00:15:09.867 --> 00:15:16.899 But she always, you know, we always managed to save one of, she had one bread 154 00:15:16.900 --> 00:15:25.266 and we took one bread that we have extra to, to throw over the barbed wires to my father, 155 00:15:25.267 --> 00:15:27.599 so he should have more. 156 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:31.466 But nobody caught us there, really, nobody. 157 00:15:31.467 --> 00:15:39.599 Ah, I don't remember how long we stayed there, then we finally, finally we got to Dresden, 158 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:46.466 got to Dresden and they took us to En.., Entlausung place. 159 00:15:46.467 --> 00:15:55.966 They really killed everything, everything, they gave us everything brand new, new clothes and we went to the factory. 160 00:15:55.967 --> 00:16:01.366 Factory was really much better than the concentration camp. 161 00:16:01.367 --> 00:16:10.232 We had bunk beds, but we had to share one, one bed, bunk bed, was very narrow, 162 00:16:10.233 --> 00:16:18.499 two people, so my, my, my mother and I decided {coughing} she should take the day, day time, work day time 163 00:16:18.500 --> 00:16:21.999 and I work night time, so we had the bed. 164 00:16:22.000 --> 00:16:26.599 And we had Luftwaffe, Luftwaffe was taken care of us, not Nazi. 165 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:35.199 And we had one commander that used to, every morning he would come and say: "Good morning Damen und Herren." {laughing} 166 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:41.599 And was, was really, was decent, every, every Sunday we had an outing, 167 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:47.066 there was a little courtyard and I, I was able to see my father in the courtyard 168 00:16:47.067 --> 00:16:52.599 and ah my father looked like a bum on the Bowery. 169 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:58.732 He had a beret and he had an old coat and he was wearing a manaszka 170 00:16:58.733 --> 00:17:04.432 that, that, the thing where we had the soup in, and he was talking to me: 171 00:17:04.433 --> 00:17:10.132 "You know, after the war," he said to me "I'm gonna buy a car." 172 00:17:10.133 --> 00:17:12.099 A car? 173 00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:14.899 Talking about a car {laughing}? 174 00:17:14.900 --> 00:17:20.632 And after, after we left, I said to my mother: "Do you think my fa.., dad is okay? 175 00:17:20.633 --> 00:17:23.099 Is he a little bit off?" 176 00:17:23.100 --> 00:17:25.166 "No", she said, "he meant it. 177 00:17:25.167 --> 00:17:26.499 He's going to buy a car." 178 00:17:26.500 --> 00:17:29.699 And he really, he did buy a car after the war. 179 00:17:29.700 --> 00:17:35.399 The first thing he did, was buy the Opel I told you about in the car. {Breathing} 180 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:41.432 So I consider my life ah tragic, but also very lucky. 181 00:17:41.433 --> 00:17:48.632 I was with my parents, I remained with my parents and I still live with: "Tomorrow will be better." 182 00:17:48.633 --> 00:17:56.899 So anything that bad happened to me, I said it's temporary and tomorrow will be better. 183 00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:59.499 IV: But you should have been very strong, just to believe in this mantra and.. 184 00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:06.332 RK: {Breathing} Yes, and, and now I also, if something goes wrong, I said: "Well, tomorrow'll be better." 185 00:18:06.333 --> 00:18:12.532 But it's, it's getting short and there will be no tomorrow, not too many tomorrows to be better. 186 00:18:12.533 --> 00:18:21.632 But, was for me, {breathing} I was very lucky considering my Schicksal, it was fantastic. 187 00:18:21.633 --> 00:18:26.499 I don't know, if it was God or my destiny or whatever. 188 00:18:26.500 --> 00:18:31.299 IV: So, can you remember how long you did stay in Dresden? 189 00:18:31.300 --> 00:18:33.666 RK: Which, did you, how long what? 190 00:18:33.667 --> 00:18:37.032 IV: How long you've been staying in Dresden in the camp? 191 00:18:37.033 --> 00:18:50.499 RK: I, I was ah, all together I was nine months between ah, ah between Auschwitz and Stutthof and Dresden. 192 00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:55.799 Then when Dresden was bombed, terribly bombed 193 00:18:55.800 --> 00:19:00.332 we, they took us to a little camp near by Pirna, was it Pirna? 194 00:19:00.333 --> 00:19:06.832 I'm not, don't know, miserable camp, it was so bad, that again they gave us lice, 195 00:19:06.833 --> 00:19:10.466 and not only lice, but lice in, in your.., that's different, 196 00:19:10.467 --> 00:19:18.766 was awful, was, that was the worst thing, that we ever had and ah then we had to go again to Entlausung, 197 00:19:18.767 --> 00:19:25.199 we worked a little bit, we went back to the factory a little bit and then, when the Russians came close, 198 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.066 the Germans were running away with us. 199 00:19:28.067 --> 00:19:36.499 And they took us on the march, we marched, I think we stopped nearby Flossenbürg, probably. 200 00:19:36.500 --> 00:19:42.566 And we slept on the ground, was I think was March, was still freezing. 201 00:19:42.567 --> 00:19:49.232 Remember my, my eyebrows were icy, when I woke up, because we slept on the ground. 202 00:19:49.233 --> 00:19:59.666 And I probably there was not, no room anymore in Flossenbürg, so they took us with, took us as far as ah Theresienstadt {breathing} 203 00:19:59.667 --> 00:20:03.632 and many people died on the way. 204 00:20:03.633 --> 00:20:10.399 So that's ah, that's I, anything else you would you like to know? 205 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:11.999 IV: So, what about your grandparents? 206 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:12.999 Just have you been.. 207 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:17.999 RK: Oh, my grandparents, my fa.., my grandfather, I slept with him every night 208 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:24.499 and one night, I, I woke up and I see they are covering the mirrow 209 00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:26.899 and I couldn't understand why they are covering the mirrow, 210 00:20:26.900 --> 00:20:31.099 I didn't realize that Jewish people, when someone dies, they have to cover the mirrow, 211 00:20:31.100 --> 00:20:33.466 I don't know why and I didn't know that. 212 00:20:33.467 --> 00:20:39.166 So, I woke up middle of the night and then I saw that my grandfather died, 213 00:20:39.167 --> 00:20:41.366 my grandmother died before that. 214 00:20:41.367 --> 00:20:44.866 She died of hunger. 215 00:20:44.867 --> 00:20:47.266 IV: And your grandfather was sick or also..? 216 00:20:47.267 --> 00:20:58.066 RK: My grandfather he died in 1943, he died. 217 00:20:58.067 --> 00:21:03.266 IV: And do you remember what kind of work did you do in Dresden in the factory? 218 00:21:03.267 --> 00:21:04.666 You, your mother, your father? 219 00:21:04.667 --> 00:21:07.599 RK: I used that, a machine, well the machine was going by itself. 220 00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:15.132 We, we made ah those big ah, I don't know what you call them, bombs, 221 00:21:15.133 --> 00:21:21.332 but they were not bombs for, for, no but this big on, on I, I was working on, 222 00:21:21.333 --> 00:21:22.332 what, what do you call it? 223 00:21:22.333 --> 00:21:24.732 I don't know what you call it, the machine.. 224 00:21:24.733 --> 00:21:26.999 IV: Granaten, vielleicht waren es Granaten? 225 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:35.299 RK: Yes, I was just watching it, when, I knew when to stop it, when to start and ah what part to do 226 00:21:35.300 --> 00:21:46.666 and I worked, yes {breathing}. We had a woman there, there was.., in the group, 227 00:21:46.667 --> 00:21:49.832 that was pregnant and she gave birth to a baby there. 228 00:21:49.833 --> 00:21:55.899 And they let the baby live. 229 00:21:55.900 --> 00:21:57.099 IV: And the baby survived? 230 00:21:57.100 --> 00:22:02.832 RK: Yes, they, they went to Israel, they went to Israel. 231 00:22:02.833 --> 00:22:07.999 IV: So and how, how the people ah treated you there in the camp? 232 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:14.666 So, there were femal, female officers or male ones, soldiers they? 233 00:22:14.667 --> 00:22:20.566 RK: I, besides telling us to go out four o'clock in the morning, they didn't bother much, 234 00:22:20.567 --> 00:22:26.666 ah just the woman, that, that was taking care of us in the barracks, she was miserable, 235 00:22:26.667 --> 00:22:31.799 she was just a, just walking around, guilty or not guilty? 236 00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:33.332 Winna, czy nie winna? {speaking Polish} 237 00:22:33.333 --> 00:22:37.699 That's all what she was saying and hitting everybody with the buckle, with the buckle. 238 00:22:37.700 --> 00:22:47.799 {Breathing} Then I met my husband there in a Dresd.., in Theresienstadt, I met my husband and he had Typhoid, 239 00:22:47.800 --> 00:23:00.166 so I, I didn't know him, because he was from Warsaw and he was about six year older than I was. 240 00:23:00.167 --> 00:23:07.066 And that was a big difference then, and I was age 16, he was already 22. 241 00:23:07.067 --> 00:23:16.766 And when they, they closed Theresienstadt, they took us on a train and we.., supposedly we go to Israel. 242 00:23:16.767 --> 00:23:24.199 We're going to Israel, okay, go to Israel, but to go to Israel, we had to go first to Italy, 243 00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:33.799 stay in the camp in Italy, wait to go to Cyprus, Cyprus to go to Israel. 244 00:23:33.800 --> 00:23:41.866 Well, we come to Austria and there is an order, "there is no room for you in Italy", going back to Germany, 245 00:23:41.867 --> 00:23:52.732 put us in, in Schellenburg, no in ah, now I ah Landsberg, Landsberg {laughing}, 246 00:23:52.733 --> 00:23:55.099 Schellenberg was where the Hotel was. 247 00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:59.832 Landsberg am Lech and.. 248 00:23:59.833 --> 00:24:01.832 IV: It was a kind of DP-camp or? 249 00:24:01.833 --> 00:24:06.599 RK: Yeah, it's a DP-camp open, but free, you could co.., come and go, 250 00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:14.332 but they kept us together and my mot.., my mother took care of my husband then, 251 00:24:14.333 --> 00:24:17.599 because he was still very sick. 252 00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:22.399 And he left early, he had family in the United States, 253 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.032 and he was writing to my mother, he was very close with my mother. 254 00:24:27.033 --> 00:24:32.199 And she wrote a letter to him I think, we have to go to Israel, we have no place else to go. 255 00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:38.499 He says: "No, don't go to Israel." He sent the letter back, "don't go to Israel, because it's bad there, 256 00:24:38.500 --> 00:24:41.399 you cannot get a job, there're no apartments available. 257 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:46.899 I'll ask my", he said, "I'll ask my uncle, he'll sent papers for you." 258 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:53.466 That's what happened, he sent papers and we came and I married him {laughing}. 259 00:24:53.467 --> 00:24:54.366 IV: What year? 260 00:24:54.367 --> 00:24:54.666 RK: 1950.. 261 00:24:54.667 --> 00:24:58.332 IV: Maybe you tell just a little bit more, how you get to the States? 262 00:24:58.333 --> 00:24:59.532 RK: 1950. 263 00:24:59.533 --> 00:25:00.166 IV: 1950. 264 00:25:00.167 --> 00:25:08.499 RK: I came on a, on the boat, called General Hahn and this so just so happened, 265 00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:17.899 like my name Kogut means rooster, rooster, a rooster what is a "Hahn" in German, yes? 266 00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:22.699 I came on a Hahn to marry a Hahn. 267 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:25.132 IV: {laughing} And your parents? 268 00:25:25.133 --> 00:25:29.432 RK: My par.., yes, they were with me all the time. 269 00:25:29.433 --> 00:25:43.166 And they died in 1990, nine months, nine months later, first my mother died, then nine months later my father died. 270 00:25:43.167 --> 00:25:47.266 They couldn't live without each other. 271 00:25:47.267 --> 00:25:52.932 But my mother kept everybody on the up {breathing}, everything was 272 00:25:52.933 --> 00:25:55.632 "Tomorrow will be better, tomorrow will be better." 273 00:25:55.633 --> 00:25:59.532 I used to ask her in, in Stutthof... 274 00:25:59.533 --> 00:26:06.166 I said: "When the war is over, how many rols you gonna give me for breakfast?" 275 00:26:06.167 --> 00:26:08.332 So she was say: "Well, I give you one." 276 00:26:08.333 --> 00:26:10.499 I said: "One? I need four." 277 00:26:10.500 --> 00:26:14.932 You know what, after the, after the war was over, I was never hungry anymore. 278 00:26:14.933 --> 00:26:17.666 There was food, that was enough for me. 279 00:26:17.667 --> 00:26:22.299 And some people ate too much and they got s.., very sick. 280 00:26:22.300 --> 00:26:28.366 I stop eating: "Oh, there is enough food, wonderful, I don't need too much food." 281 00:26:28.367 --> 00:26:31.166 But I was bargaining with her, that "no, I don't want one role, 282 00:26:31.167 --> 00:26:37.166 I need at least four," I said to her. {breathing} 283 00:26:37.167 --> 00:26:40.999 IV: Going back in the, your thoughts to this time, what do you think, 284 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:46.999 what was the most terrible, the hardest thing, you had to go through? 285 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.099 During this last two, three years? 286 00:26:50.100 --> 00:26:55.666 RK: The hardest thing was really that little, that little camp that I went to, 287 00:26:55.667 --> 00:27:02.666 because we put us to sleep in a silo, that we had to crawl into, and I thought that was the gas chamber. 288 00:27:02.667 --> 00:27:07.899 And I thought we'll never crawl out of there and that was such a miserable place. 289 00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:11.366 That was like the most miserable place I was ever in. 290 00:27:11.367 --> 00:27:17.999 That was, I think, that was the hard, and, and I, I didn't, I took everything like for granted, 291 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.232 as has to be like this, has to be like this. 292 00:27:20.233 --> 00:27:24.766 And since I was with my mother that was so wonderful. 293 00:27:24.767 --> 00:27:29.999 I, I she, I knew she is gonna take care of me. 294 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:40.999 And my father I saw every day, every day or every Sunday in the, in the, in, in, in Dresden {breathing}. 295 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:46.232 IV: And did you know anything about ah the existence of gas chambers? 296 00:27:46.233 --> 00:27:52.199 RK: Oh, yes, oh, I, we, we heard it in the ghetto and nobody believed it, ach, 297 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:58.799 because I think they sent us some people from, from a concentration camp, I don't know how. 298 00:27:58.800 --> 00:28:06.032 They were behind some place, not in the ghetto, but some place behind and they were telling us stories 299 00:28:06.033 --> 00:28:08.599 and we thought they were cra.., absolutely crazy. 300 00:28:08.600 --> 00:28:12.032 And I couldn't, we couldn't believe it there is no such a thing, 301 00:28:12.033 --> 00:28:16.699 there is no such a thing as concentration camp, not, not, in the ghetto nobody believed. 302 00:28:16.700 --> 00:28:22.166 But then in 1939 nobody believed there is gonna be a war. 303 00:28:22.167 --> 00:28:32.466 There was a war and my city wasn't bombed, because it was Litzmannstadt, it was German. {Breathing} 304 00:28:32.467 --> 00:28:40.166 So that was really, the, the worst, the worst point and I was just lucky that I, we had a group 305 00:28:40.167 --> 00:28:48.266 that they kept together with children, with wives and that was, that was very unusual, very unusual. 306 00:28:48.267 --> 00:28:53.766 So, God was good to me or whatever was good to me, whatever God or, 307 00:28:53.767 --> 00:28:57.966 or destiny or whatever you call it. 308 00:28:57.967 --> 00:29:03.999 IV: And af.., after starting this new life in the US, 309 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.566 ah did you think a lot of those things of the five past year? 310 00:29:08.567 --> 00:29:15.032 RK: No, I, I never, I never went, I, I wanted to I, I not that I wanted to forget, 311 00:29:15.033 --> 00:29:19.499 but I didn't delve on it, I just didn't, I just, it's a new life. 312 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:22.399 I'm not gonna live with the past, I'm gonna live with the future. 313 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.166 But my husband, my husband was constantly thinking and, 314 00:29:26.167 --> 00:29:28.232 and reading and everything back.. 315 00:29:28.233 --> 00:29:31.899 I said: "Don't do that, don't do it to yourself, you make yourself miserable. 316 00:29:31.900 --> 00:29:35.632 Live with, with your future, not with the past. 317 00:29:35.633 --> 00:29:39.199 No, no I, I didn't wanna go to the past, I wanted to go 318 00:29:39.200 --> 00:29:42.466 and have ah forget, no that I wanted to forget, 319 00:29:42.467 --> 00:29:45.166 or was ashamed to tell anybody I was in concen.., 320 00:29:45.167 --> 00:29:50.766 I just figured I have a new life, I was 21 when I came to this country. 321 00:29:50.767 --> 00:29:54.199 I wanted to have, have a brand new life. 322 00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:55.999 Because my mother said: "Tomorrow'll be better." 323 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.566 And that was better. 324 00:29:59.567 --> 00:30:05.799 So that's how I live, tomorrow will be better. 325 00:30:05.800 --> 00:30:08.599 IV: That's a good mantra. 326 00:30:08.600 --> 00:30:12.299 And I think ah it also fits with the United States. 327 00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:12.732 RK: Yes. 328 00:30:12.733 --> 00:30:13.399 IV: So I think that's.. 329 00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:19.999 RK: A wonderful country, absolutely the best country there is. 330 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:27.766 IV: So, you told me driving here with the car, your husband started to hold lectures 331 00:30:27.767 --> 00:30:32.799 and talk about this and teach children about this, his past and what he.. 332 00:30:32.800 --> 00:30:35.632 RK: My, my, my husband, yes, yes, he was.. 333 00:30:35.633 --> 00:30:37.166 IV: Maybe you tell a little bit about him..? 334 00:30:37.167 --> 00:30:44.232 RK: Ah, I'd, he was, I know that he went to school and the kids loved every story he tell them, 335 00:30:44.233 --> 00:30:52.599 every and they would send him "Thank You" letters, wrote letters to him and he loved to talk about it. 336 00:30:52.600 --> 00:30:56.066 He would really, lived with his past. 337 00:30:56.067 --> 00:31:05.366 And also he, he painted, he was a painter, he liked to copy all the good artists, 338 00:31:05.367 --> 00:31:14.532 we are, had, there was not one room, not, no room in my house that a painting wasn't hanging, 339 00:31:14.533 --> 00:31:17.866 so he went through a lot, he, my husband went through a lot. 340 00:31:17.867 --> 00:31:20.199 I was the lucky one. 341 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:23.032 He had a miserable life. 342 00:31:23.033 --> 00:31:32.832 He was in the Warsaw ghetto, he was in the, helping the Uprising, he ran out from, from a train 343 00:31:32.833 --> 00:31:38.132 train to Treblinka, which was, you didn't come out of that camp, 344 00:31:38.133 --> 00:31:44.799 that was a death camp, he managed to run out fro.., you know through the old little window and ah... 345 00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:48.299 yeah, he ran, he hadn't, he ran away. 346 00:31:48.300 --> 00:31:52.332 And he went back to Warsaw. 347 00:31:52.333 --> 00:31:57.599 My, is my ah interview a little too short? 348 00:31:57.600 --> 00:32:00.332 IV: Everyone is telling the story he wants to tell. 349 00:32:00.333 --> 00:32:04.599 RK: Ah just that I, I, I like to remember good, good stuff. 350 00:32:04.600 --> 00:32:12.566 But I know that the camp that I, we had to go, because after the, after the bombing in Dresden, 351 00:32:12.567 --> 00:32:16.932 that was the most horrible experience in my whole life. 352 00:32:16.933 --> 00:32:25.266 That was absolutely, {breathing} I don't even wanna think about that silo that I have to crawl into, 353 00:32:25.267 --> 00:32:32.832 that was and all the people filthy, filthy, miserable {breathing} what that was absolutely, 354 00:32:32.833 --> 00:32:41.999 because they kept us nice, they kept us, because they wanted men to work in that Metallfabrik. 355 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:48.499 IV: There are things ah as a child or a young woman seeing also a lot of people dying every day, 356 00:32:48.500 --> 00:32:48.932 I think that was a experience.. 357 00:32:48.933 --> 00:32:57.766 RK: Oh yes, yes they died, they died of different sicknesses I don't know, I told you about the women that had diarrhea 358 00:32:57.767 --> 00:33:03.999 that died of the diarrhea that, that, that was, that was bad, that was... 359 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:15.899 But, you know, I just at, I always thought about the good points not, not the miserable parts. 360 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:18.066 IV: So, optimistic kind of. 361 00:33:18.067 --> 00:33:18.666 RK: Mh, yeah. 362 00:33:18.667 --> 00:33:19.599 IV: Optimistic.. 363 00:33:19.600 --> 00:33:25.899 RK: Well, my, my mother I take after my mother and she was optimistic, she was.. 364 00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:36.999 She was ah, constantly, constantly telling everybody, "Don't worry, tomorrow, tomorrow." {laughing}, it was always a tomorrow. 365 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:40.066 IV: And then ah you got children in the United States? 366 00:33:40.067 --> 00:33:41.099 RK: Oh, yes, yes. 367 00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:42.032 IV: Can you just tell a little bit? 368 00:33:42.033 --> 00:33:50.066 RK: I have, I have, I have ah I have a son and a daughter and they gave me grandchildren, 369 00:33:50.067 --> 00:33:59.399 I have ah {breathing} I, my daughter gave me a, son also, a grandson and a granddaughter 370 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:06.166 and they in turn gave me some great-grandchildren, so I have three great-grandchildren, 371 00:34:06.167 --> 00:34:14.766 the oldest is seven, he is a boy, a little genius boy {laughing}, absolutely genius {laughing}. 372 00:34:14.767 --> 00:34:22.899 And a little girl that's ah four and now my granddaughter has a little girl, 373 00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:32.066 she is two, so I have three great-grandchildren and they, they doing, all doing well, 374 00:34:32.067 --> 00:34:37.899 they absolutely doing well, they, they thrive in the United States. 375 00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:44.232 Because if it wasn't for the war, I would still be with, with the Polish people that hated the Jews 376 00:34:44.233 --> 00:34:48.632 constantly reminded us we should leave ah {breathing}.. 377 00:34:48.633 --> 00:34:54.599 IV: You, you really can remember this, how the Polish people treat you, maybe you just talk a little bit about this. 378 00:34:54.600 --> 00:34:59.799 RK: That was unbelievable how they hated the Jews, they had signs on the wall, 379 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:06.199 we should leave {breathing}, we should leave, but there then they had signs: 380 00:35:06.200 --> 00:35:10.799 "You Jews leave, but leave the beautiful Jewish women here." {laughing} 381 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:15.699 Signs, stupid signs, stupid signs, hateful. 382 00:35:15.700 --> 00:35:20.166 Ah, we had public schools and before the war, public schools, 383 00:35:20.167 --> 00:35:26.999 but they, they separated we, we went to a public school for Jewish children, 384 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:31.899 not Catholic children that mix with Jewish children. 385 00:35:31.900 --> 00:35:39.432 And I think it was ah the priest, the church that taught them how to hate the Jews. 386 00:35:39.433 --> 00:35:47.632 Because naturally the Jews killed Jesus and the Jews killed the Christian children, 387 00:35:47.633 --> 00:35:53.032 because they needed blood for the Matze to make Matze with the blood. 388 00:35:53.033 --> 00:36:00.966 And blo.., blood is hateful for the Jews that's when we, they make kosher meat, 389 00:36:00.967 --> 00:36:07.866 they make sure that the blood runs out, that's why they make it kosher that the salt makes the blood run out. 390 00:36:07.867 --> 00:36:12.999 So there was all and those, all the lies where done by I im.., I imagine. 391 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:21.032 I would say that done by priests, the church did that, taught them how to hate the Jew, I don't know, 392 00:36:21.033 --> 00:36:24.999 Hitler managed to tell everybody to kill the Jew. 393 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:31.666 And the German people were very good to the Jewish people they, we, they were allowed to go to University, 394 00:36:31.667 --> 00:36:39.399 they were well educated till Hitler came and Poland was not, you couldn't go to University, 395 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:47.366 you had to go out of, to Austria, to France, to Germany, if you wanted to be educated that's where you had to go. 396 00:36:47.367 --> 00:36:54.166 Jew had no, no reason to be in University, they were ha.., hateful people, 397 00:36:54.167 --> 00:36:59.232 they still are, they still are, they may be a little quiet about it, 398 00:36:59.233 --> 00:37:06.532 but inwardly they really they hate, well everybody else hates, hates the Jews, so {laughing}. 399 00:37:06.533 --> 00:37:10.999 But we managed to survive, we managed to survive. 400 00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:13.899 IV: And in the United States today how do you feel? 401 00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:20.032 RK: There is some, there is some people, I might, I don't know, but they, but they're not vocal about it, 402 00:37:20.033 --> 00:37:25.832 so it's not, they keep it to themselves. 403 00:37:25.833 --> 00:37:28.699 IV: And so you can feel fine? 404 00:37:28.700 --> 00:37:32.132 RK: I had no problem being Jewish there at all, no, no. 405 00:37:32.133 --> 00:37:39.599 Well I lived in a community on the ocean where we had Italian and Irish and Jewish 406 00:37:39.600 --> 00:37:44.399 and ah all different nationalities, we lived in harmony. 407 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:52.832 Oh by the way, I forgot to tell you, that we had a storm in 1912 {means: 2012} called Sandy, 408 00:37:52.833 --> 00:38:01.366 ah which broke my house, my house was destroyed by the storm, I lived right on top of the beach. 409 00:38:01.367 --> 00:38:10.732 And my whole living room wall was brick and glass, the whole stretch and it, the wall, 410 00:38:10.733 --> 00:38:19.632 the, the sea wall broke into my house and broke the whole, all the windows and all the walls to my living room, 411 00:38:19.633 --> 00:38:24.199 but every, everything else and I was there, I was in the house while it happened. 412 00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:31.332 Some people, my neighbours broke the kitchen window, came upstairs to the bedroom, 413 00:38:31.333 --> 00:38:35.966 I was in the bedroom, I didn't think it was so terrible {laughing}. 414 00:38:35.967 --> 00:38:42.699 And they took me out, they took me out from the house. 415 00:38:42.700 --> 00:38:49.532 So I survived something else and it, it, before that my husband died, he had a car accident. 416 00:38:49.533 --> 00:38:59.499 I was sick for three month after that car accident and he died, it was another "Tomorrow will be better". 417 00:38:59.500 --> 00:39:01.666 And that's how I live, tomorrow will be better. 418 00:39:01.667 --> 00:39:09.699 IV: Yeah, so, I hope you can say this mantra many years more, many more years, every day new. 419 00:39:09.700 --> 00:39:11.066 RK: Thank you. 420 00:39:11.067 --> 00:39:13.032 IV: Thank you for giving us the interview. 421 00:39:13.033 --> 00:39:13.832 RK: Thank you. 422 00:39:13.833 --> 00:39:23.833 IV: It was great meeting you, thank you.