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Audiotechniker: Just, Gerät läuft, eh.

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Interviewer: Eh..Es ist heute Freitag der 18. Juli.  Wir befinden uns in Weiden im Hotel Admira.

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Und ich werde jetzt ein Interview führen mit Herrn William Nattel....Nattel?

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Der heute in Kanada lebt, äh... Er wurde geboren am 20. Oktober 1928 in Krakau.

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William Nattel: 26.

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IV: 26. Schon? Schon falsch {lacht}. Am 26. September in Krakau.

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Eh und während seiner Haftzeit war er zweimal im, kurz, im...Stammlager, im Hauptlager Flossenbürg.

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Und im Außenlager in Hersbruck. Auf dem Todesmarsch wurde er befreit in Stamsried?

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WN: Stams...

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IV: Stamsried. Und, eh, wie gesagt, er lebt heute in Kanada ... Gut, und du, wir können.

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IV: Dann. Ja, du sagst es einfach. Und Andy du hast die Uhr mal ein bisschen im Auge, nicht?

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Also einfach nur wenn sozusagen von der Zeit, für, meine.

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IV: Mmhh, mmhh... Gut, now. Let's start. Maybe just, eh, a little bit.

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Let's talk a little bit about where you've born, about your family, how you grew up.

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WN: Yeah. Both my parents were born in Galicja.

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My father was born in Nowy Sącz, Neu Sandez. My mother in Gorlice.

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My, eh, father was born to a very traditional family. I didn't know my grandfather.

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I was born one week after he passed away, so I carry his name.

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His name was Wolf, and, a, I am Wilhelm. Eh, my father was in hardware business.

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Eh, he started before First World War. During the war he served in the K und K Armee.

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IV: Armee.

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WN: And, er, auf, he met my mother before the war. They got married.

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And my older sister was born in 1912, the younger one in 1914.

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I was sort of a...late child, 12 years after...

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IV: Hmmm.

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WN: Oh, my younger sister was born. Eh...My father between the wars, er, especially before the

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The crisis, 1929 crisis, he travelled a lot.

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To Germany, France and England. And imported merchandise, hardware merchandise.

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After, eh..after the, after the war he also started a small manufacturing business, manufacturing saws.

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For carpenters.  And small tools. He also manufactured locks. Door locks.

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IV: Mmhm.

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WN: I started school when I was six years old. I went to a Hebrew school.

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Not traditional but very modern. And..eh, everything was taught.... in Polish.

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All the subjects, except religi, relig, religious subjects.

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When the war broke out I just finished the first grade of high school, Gymnasium.

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The war, my mother passed away in 1935.

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I was nine years old at that time.

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When the war broke out on 1st of September 1939.

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I recall, five, at five in the morning, we heard planes.

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And, went outside, and we saw the planes flying, they were silver in colour.

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It was a beautiful day, and the sun was shining, at the plane.

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The sight was beautiful, but, we heard noises.

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And we thought that the bombs are falling.

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They were not, it, eh, artillery in Kraków. Was shooting at the planes.

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And, Kraków was, was occupied, with the best my memory, on the 9th of September.

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And shortly after, problems started. First was food supply.

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There were...eh, shortages of food. I was a young boy.

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And I was, that's when the hunger started.

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And it really lasted until the very end of the war.

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The first... first things we felt: Our school was closed in December.

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And that's when we had to wear armbands.

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Eh...when I was walking to school, within town centre, I had to pass a Catholic seminary.

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The Catholic seminary was occupied by SS, I believe, SS Offizier, young.

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And I was walking to school, there was a problem.

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If I was wearing a hat, I got kicked because I was wearing a hat.

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If I took off the hat, I would be kicked because I took off the hat.

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There was no right way to pass by without being abused.

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And this was, eh, the beginning... Eh, mein Vater believed that, s..strangely.

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That the war between Germany and Soviet Russia is imminent.

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He was being laughed by all his friends. Because the relations were so good.

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Russia was exporting... Benzin, oil, grains... And relations seemed to be excellent.

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And my father very firm saying:  "No, these are two, two opposite political systems.

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And it's going, the war is coming." So, eh, March 1940. He insisted that we leave Kraków.

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Because he remembered during First World War: Kraków was eh, strong point, eine Festung.

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IV: Hmm.

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WN: And he was very much afraid that Kraków will be destroyed in the war.

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So we moved to a little town about hundred, hundred-twenty kilometres from Kraków.

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Actually it was a village. And we lived in the village.

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Conditions were very, very poor. We had no money.

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And the only food we had was, my father would sell some clothing.

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Or...uh.. He would sell, whatever we had.

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He had a gold watch with gold chain, so he would sell a

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tiny piece of, of gold chain and that's how we had something to eat.

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At the age of fourteen I had to register for work.

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With a work office, Arbeitsamt. And I was forced to work in a quarry, stone quarry.

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There were... it was a stone quarry, also sand pit.

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Eh... I was physically not very strong, but anyhow, I worked till 1942.

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Uh, if you'll ask, where would the stone go, and the sand?

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Eh, they were sold to a, to a German company.

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IV: And was, the quarry, was it far away from the village?

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You've been separated from your family or?

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WN: No, no.  It was... perhaps, eh, half a kilometer away.

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The village uh, village was Gromnik. Near Cięż...Ciężkowice.

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Life was, life was very difficult.  I earned... złotys, for a weeks wages.

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Perhaps we, we could get a piece of...eh, half a bread. Not even that.

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My father at that time was in his late fifties.

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And he eh, he had a heart attack a few years before the war.

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So he was not capable of working. In 1941, towards fall of 1941,

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the, we had, all Jews had to be transferred to small, to the closest, little towns.

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The owners of the house we lived in, were Jewish farmers.

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And the family had to leave. My father had the, the emeriti...

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He asked the SS man who was in charge of the transfer.

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He stood in front of him and he saluted.

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And he said, "I was a soldier in K und K Armee.

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During First World War, four years. I beg you to leave us here."

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And he said, "OK, you can stay." So we stayed till July 1942.

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It was much better than moving to a small town where all the Jews were compacted.

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In July 1942 we were transferred to the ghetto in Zakliczyn...

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Uh, The town, aldermen - Älteste - had to supply 150 workers to the... to the Talsperre.

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Which was being built in Czchów. And naturally in situations like this,

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the people who were foreign, I mean, came from other villages or towns, they were picked.

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And I was picked, to Czchów. At that time it seemed like a disaster happening.

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Because all the, we all, heard about the workcamps.

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Conditions were very bad, hard work, no food. Very little food.

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So I started... I started in Czchów. I went home from Czchów to Zakliczyn.

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I got permission to go twice. Once I hurt my foot.

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So I had permission to go over Saturday afternoon.

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And be at work on Monday morning. Eh, eh, this.

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I was working there. Eh... we were digging ditches and building a waterline.

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And the pipes must have been ten inches in diameter.

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Which is 25 centimetres. Eh, after the ditches were dug,

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I and a friend of mine had to heat a length of pipe.

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I think it must have been ten meter long. Heat them.

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And then dip them in very heavy oil, molasses, like asphalt.

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Stores, so they were covered and they could keep them from corrosion.

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We heard rumours about liquidations taking place.

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My two sisters were living in Tarnów, at that time.

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Which was, uh, 20-odd kilometres away. And, there was no e-mail obviously.

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Ha, so we wrote cards or letters. And in, eh, June,

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My older sister was killed in Tarnów, during SS action.

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My younger sister was so completely terrified. She just wrote us, that she was killed.

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In September 1942 I heard that the action is planned in Zakliczyn.

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So I left the work and started walking to Zakliczyn.

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I wanted to be with my father... You, at that time, one was not allowed.

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Even the Poles were not allowed, to walk during the night.

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And in every village, there were people assigned. The Poles who were responsible

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that nothing, nothing happens. So we didn't have a watch.

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When I was walking I felt well it's about time I, I better have a little rest.

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Because I cannot come, during the night, to the ghetto...

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There, I, I found a barn. There was some straw in the barn.

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So I lay down, lay down to sleep. I slept. I woke up,

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and it, eh, the moon came out. And there is absolutely no external light,

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The moon is very bright and I thought, "Oh, the daylight is starting."

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So I started walking again. Instead of daylight,

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must have been four o'clock in the morning. I, I would,

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I didn't walk with the road, I walked with the path.

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That there was a path going among the fields, you had to know it.

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Suddenly, someone yells, "Halt! What is com.. what is going here?"

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And shining light into my eyes. These were two Poles.

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Who were responsible in the village. Someone walking at night, what's he doing?

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So they, eh, asked me questions. I didn't wear my armband.

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So, they..they told, they thought I am a Pole.

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My Polish was, very good, that was my mother's tongue.

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So I told them I'm walking to Siemiechów which was a village, still is,

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after Zakliczyn. So they said, "Oh, be careful.

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Because SS around and already at the ghetto."

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I, well if they surrounded the ghetto I, I was in a quandary.

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Should I walk ahead to the ghetto? I would..couldn't get in.

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Uh, there I would be shot. Right away.

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So I, I walked in the direction where I was supposed to go to Siemiechów.

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But then I, I turned around and I came, I came back to camp.

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And I got sick. I was very upset obviously.

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My father was there and I, I knew that they are going to take the town.

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And I knew what's happening to the people they, they take away with the transport.

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We knew that there they are killed right away.

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I was sick a couple of days with high fever.

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I was, they let me stay in the barrack.

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Eh, it was a strange camp where we were building the Talsperre.

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So that was a matter of digging very deeply till the rocks.

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It was protected because it was in the place of the, of the, Dunajec river.

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So there were steel pontoons dug into the ground.

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Where they stopped the water, we were building.

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Eventually there were the forms set up, wooden forms and the concrete was brought in.

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I was, we had the, the camp was a civilian camp.

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With a few German meisters leading the work.

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With German, Herr Schneider, who was the top boss.

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And Polish foremen and Polish workers and, and the Jewish workers.

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We were, they were, were staying in two barracks.

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And were not, were supposed to stay in the barracks after work.

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So it was "stay in the barracks, go to work in the morning,

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Come back to the barracks after, barracks after work."

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At eh... we had a visit of SS. The company was a German company -

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Beton- und Monierbau - and they hired the Jews from SS.

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And they were paying, I dont know how much,

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to the SS daily per man, so and so much.

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The SS came in and they looked around.

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And many of the Jewish boys, were... pipemakers.

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They were work... I was working in the installation.

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And eh, had relatively good jobs. And they, they got very upset.

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And they started then yelling at the German Meister.

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That the Jews had to be put "schwerste und dreckigste Arbeit."

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So I was put in the cement and the concrete factory.

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Where the cement was mixed with sand.

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So when the, when the, the concrete was being poured 2-3 days for a section.

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After the section was built, perhaps a day or two, we did something else.

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So we had to carry the concrete sacks, empty them over a sieve.

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A large sieve so no paper would get in.

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And from there it would go, automatically mixed with sand and little stones.

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And the proportion was water mixed and would go for pouring concrete.

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This was very heavy work because we had to run with the sacks of cement.

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Each sack of cement was 50 kilogram... I was... I was very fortunate.

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I was fortunate many times... During... at one point there were an order to bring the concrete.

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To pour into the wooden forms. There was a cable car.

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Cable installation constru..., constructed so there two big towers on rails.

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And the towers were carrying the heavy cable across.

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The installation was perhaps three-, four hundred metres long.

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So there was a cable going over it and the cable carried buckets.

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Heavy buckets of concrete so there was a man standing down with a little, round...

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Frau Nattel: Flag.

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WN: Pardon.

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FN: Flag.

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WN: Not the flag. Ehm, like, like a small ping pong pallet.

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A lit.., a round pallet about this diameter, white with a red border on a little stick.

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And he would be directing the driver on the tower.

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Which was far away. Because he didn't see what was happening.

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When, when he was lowering the bucket of concrete.

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So the, what the first pouring started, the German Meister,

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His name was Herr Müller, came himself down to see how it's going.

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So a Pole was directing the, the little bucket of concrete.

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And he gave the wrong direction. Now the bucket of concrete,

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Was hanging 30m from the rail so it was swinging.

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So you have to direct... the driver, which was far away on, on the tower.

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To stop the swinging when you start lowering the bucket.

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Because if the bucket starts swinging it will destroy everything.

215
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IV: Mmhm, mmhm, mm. ...

216
00:29:46.600 --> 00:29:56.799
WN: Was very heavy. So he gave the wrong sign and the bucket hit the concrete.

217
00:29:56.800 --> 00:30:03.999
The installation where concrete was being poured and the concrete started running out.

218
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:09.899
It was, the instal, the concrete, the installation was perhaps two storeys high.

219
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:15.499
Because built up, storey upon storey, the concrete started pouring.

220
00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:21.466
It was a mess and Herr Müller got very upset.

221
00:30:21.467 --> 00:30:27.132
He started shouting at the poor Pole. I thought, he's going to hit him.

222
00:30:27.133 --> 00:30:32.232
I was standing by with the shovel because I had to clean up the concrete.

223
00:30:32.233 --> 00:30:36.366
So, he asked me, "Verstehen Sie Deutsch?"

224
00:30:36.367 --> 00:30:40.532
At that time I didn't speak German much but I understood.

225
00:30:40.533 --> 00:30:44.999
So I said, "Ja, ja, ich verstehe etwas", so he showed me:

226
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:51.066
"Look, this is up, this is down, this is to the forward.

227
00:30:51.067 --> 00:30:55.166
This is back, this is what you have to show. This is stop."

228
00:30:55.167 --> 00:31:01.032
So I said: "Ok". So from then on I was pouring the conc'

229
00:31:01.033 --> 00:31:05.999
I was standing there with the concrete being poured.

230
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.999
So I, I didn't, I was lucky I didn't have to do the hard job.

231
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:17.666
And this was very important because if someone had money you could buy some food.

232
00:31:17.667 --> 00:31:23.999
I had no money. I had a few hundred eh, złoty which my father gave me.

233
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.599
He took away from, from himself, this lasted four weeks.

234
00:31:28.600 --> 00:31:39.166
I, I bought a bread, I took a piece every day...

235
00:31:39.167 --> 00:31:48.799
There were several cases like this where simply, I was lucky.

236
00:31:48.800 --> 00:32:01.732
The first one, my sisters in 1940, when they moved from Kraków to Tarnów.

237
00:32:01.733 --> 00:32:05.266
And we lived in the village 20km away.

238
00:32:05.267 --> 00:32:08.932
They said: "What's going on with the boy?

239
00:32:08.933 --> 00:32:14.099
He's not going to school.  He has to learn something."

240
00:32:14.100 --> 00:32:19.832
One sister was, had then finished graph..., high graphic school.

241
00:32:19.833 --> 00:32:28.799
Another was studying at the Jagielloński university in Kraków.

242
00:32:28.800 --> 00:32:33.832
So that they said, they'll teach me.

243
00:32:33.833 --> 00:32:42.199
So I, I moved to Tarnów, and stayed with my sisters.

244
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:46.399
After, eh, they were teaching me for a month, six weeks.

245
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:53.499
Then they said, "Look, this, our teaching won't do you much good.

246
00:32:53.500 --> 00:33:01.899
You have to learn a trade." Under the German occupation you had to have a trade.

247
00:33:01.900 --> 00:33:10.999
Ehh, a degree, with a degree you could, you could show that.

248
00:33:11.000 --> 00:33:16.332
So they said, "Ok, you will learn Schlosserei."

249
00:33:16.333 --> 00:33:30.932
So they send me to a Jewish Schlosser and he was working in a, in a basement.

250
00:33:30.933 --> 00:33:36.532
Where there was, sometimes before, a brick floor.

251
00:33:36.533 --> 00:33:42.532
But the bricks with time turned into dust, so there was red dust on the floor.

252
00:33:42.533 --> 00:33:46.432
There were, he had no power, no electric power.

253
00:33:46.433 --> 00:33:51.999
So he had a coup.. few drills, hand drills and you turned.

254
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:58.666
He had eh, Smithy.  Smithy is, he was a... ein Schmied.

255
00:33:58.667 --> 00:34:00.399
IV: Schmied. Yeah.

256
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:04.732
WN: So I had to lift a 5 kilogramm hammer.

257
00:34:04.733 --> 00:34:09.966
When he was hitting with a little hammer, I had to hit with the big hammer.

258
00:34:09.967 --> 00:34:13.899
I barely was able, barely able to lift the hammer, never mind hit it.

259
00:34:13.900 --> 00:34:14.766
IV: Hm.

260
00:34:14.767 --> 00:34:22.766
WN: Eh... he showed me, I had to hit what he hit with his little hammer.

261
00:34:22.767 --> 00:34:33.399
Anyhow, at that time it, I, he was paying me a złoty, friday, Trinkgeld.

262
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:35.166
IV: Mmhmm.

263
00:34:35.167 --> 00:34:39.766
WN: Well I brough.., brought my first złoty, and I gave it to my sisters.

264
00:34:39.767 --> 00:34:46.232
It was my first earned money, I was very proud, my first złoty. You could...

265
00:34:46.233 --> 00:34:51.466
IV: Buy... anything.

266
00:34:51.467 --> 00:34:56.032
WN: Why was it, later it turned out important. I couldn't stay.

267
00:34:56.033 --> 00:35:02.966
I stayed with the sisters perhaps three months.

268
00:35:02.967 --> 00:35:15.832
I had to register also in Arbeitsamt, and, and then come once a month.

269
00:35:15.833 --> 00:35:27.866
So I came one month. I was assigned to unloading wagons, railway wagons.

270
00:35:27.867 --> 00:35:35.199
It was for the army, the army brought in barracks, barrack parts.

271
00:35:35.200 --> 00:35:40.566
The barrack parts were very heavy, and we had to unload the barrack.

272
00:35:40.567 --> 00:35:51.332
The, the parts, and carry them, maybe 100 metres, 200 metres and stack them up.

273
00:35:51.333 --> 00:35:55.732
And eight men were carrying the barracks.

274
00:35:55.733 --> 00:35:59.532
Now I was at that time nearly as tall as I am now.

275
00:35:59.533 --> 00:36:01.932
Probably taller because I shrunk a little with age.

276
00:36:01.933 --> 00:36:04.499
IV: Haha.

277
00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:11.666
WN: So I carried. I was walking, I was carrying. Now the other boys were carrying like this.

278
00:36:11.667 --> 00:36:18.699
Eh, there is a big difference between carrying like this and carrying like this.

279
00:36:18.700 --> 00:36:23.332
And I, I carried probably a quarter of the weight.

280
00:36:23.333 --> 00:36:41.166
I carried the parts all day long. They took my documents away in the morning.

281
00:36:41.167 --> 00:36:44.766
A German soldier took it away in the morning.

282
00:36:44.767 --> 00:36:50.532
And in the evening after work he gave me this back and he said: "Come back tomorrow morning."

283
00:36:50.533 --> 00:36:57.999
I said: "Ok."  I went back home to my sisters, they had one room.

284
00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:04.066
We slept, two sisters and I in one room.

285
00:37:04.067 --> 00:37:09.366
The next morning I tried to get off the bed, I couldn't.

286
00:37:09.367 --> 00:37:20.732
All my muscles were completely stiff, I, I, I couldn't bend my leg, I couldn't get off the bed.

287
00:37:20.733 --> 00:37:32.499
So I didn't go.  Well, the, he gave me back my documents so nothing, nothing bad happened.

288
00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:35.999
It took two, three days till I was able to walk.

289
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:40.432
Walk down from the bed and walk down the stairs.

290
00:37:40.433 --> 00:37:51.132
But I, what happened, I had, I had to register with the police, police, Polish police.

291
00:37:51.133 --> 00:37:58.599
I didn't, I had no right to move at that time from the village to town.

292
00:37:58.600 --> 00:38:10.466
So the police started looking for me. So I was sleeping at some friends, sisters' friends.

293
00:38:10.467 --> 00:38:17.932
But this was good, one night, two nights, three nights but eventually I had to come back to the village.

294
00:38:17.933 --> 00:38:26.366
I, I jumped sort of in order to explain about how I, how I became a Schlosser.

295
00:38:26.367 --> 00:38:32.099
So then when I came to camp I registered, "what's your profession?"

296
00:38:32.100 --> 00:38:38.366
"Ich bin ein Schlosser." So this is why I worked at pipes.

297
00:38:38.367 --> 00:38:41.532
IV: Ehm.

298
00:38:41.533 --> 00:38:57.066
WN: Now we stayed in Czchów till October, to be exact October 18th 1943.

299
00:38:57.067 --> 00:39:04.766
We started in '42 in July, and we ended in October.

300
00:39:04.767 --> 00:39:22.866
And it... during late summer, 1943, I was corresponding with my sister.

301
00:39:22.867 --> 00:39:34.999
My sister somewhere obtained, Aryan papers, that she's an Aryan, a Pole.

302
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:48.566
And she was, she got the po.. position as a governess at the Polish lord.

303
00:39:48.567 --> 00:40:00.132
He had a large, eh, estate and he was, the children were taught by a governess.

304
00:40:00.133 --> 00:40:09.766
My sister was highly qualified, eh, she spoke German, she spoke English, she spoke Polish.

305
00:40:09.767 --> 00:40:16.999
So she was teaching the children for some time.

306
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:28.632
In, in the fall, must have been September, I'm again I'm thin.., going back.

307
00:40:28.633 --> 00:40:35.532
We were bring.. at one point we had to bring the cement from this station.

308
00:40:35.533 --> 00:40:49.332
And in Bochnia, if I'm not mistaken, to Czchów to the workplace.

309
00:40:49.333 --> 00:41:00.166
And we were a group of Jewish boys and two of them run away.

310
00:41:00.167 --> 00:41:05.766
Eh, to run away was, you could run away.

311
00:41:05.767 --> 00:41:10.432
But run away where? How are we doing timewise?

312
00:41:10.433 --> 00:41:16.066
IV: So now we are, we pass more than half of the time we have altogether.

313
00:41:16.067 --> 00:41:20.432
So, just, maybe just take a little. Take, drink, drink.

314
00:41:20.433 --> 00:41:22.999
FN: {??} Water.

315
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:24.499
IV: Ja.

316
00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:31.232
FN: Take.

317
00:41:31.233 --> 00:41:44.666
WN: They declared that should any, anyone who run away, ten will be killed...

318
00:41:44.667 --> 00:41:55.566
One evening someone was screaming, callling me, "Nattel, someone is looking for you!"

319
00:41:55.567 --> 00:42:01.966
So I run to the fence and there was a young man who introduced himself.

320
00:42:01.967 --> 00:42:09.732
Eh, he is a Pole and my sister sent him to bring me from the camp to her.

321
00:42:09.733 --> 00:42:15.132
I should just run away. He brought me a heavy jacket and a hat.

322
00:42:15.133 --> 00:42:20.232
So I could wear it and I'll go with him.

323
00:42:20.233 --> 00:42:23.099
And I was in a quandary, should I run away.

324
00:42:23.100 --> 00:42:33.066
And then people would be killed, or should I stay. I decided to stay.

325
00:42:33.067 --> 00:42:41.566
I, I couldn't bring it upon myself to have peop.. ten people on my conscience.

326
00:42:41.567 --> 00:42:49.366
So I send him away back to tell my sister that I cannot run away.

327
00:42:49.367 --> 00:42:54.566
By the time I got to the barracks the police was already looking for me.

328
00:42:54.567 --> 00:42:58.799
Someone already notified the police that he is a guy.

329
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:06.432
Ehm, who may run away because somebody came to him and is talking to him.

330
00:43:06.433 --> 00:43:11.166
So I got, they hit me a few times, though.

331
00:43:11.167 --> 00:43:18.532
Just for the sport of it and I stayed obviously.

332
00:43:18.533 --> 00:43:23.832
We stayed till October 18th 1943 in the morning.

333
00:43:23.833 --> 00:43:31.532
Were surrounded by SS, put on trucks and taken to Mielec.

334
00:43:31.533 --> 00:43:36.666
Eh, Mielec was a camp of three thousand people.

335
00:43:36.667 --> 00:43:42.866
The camp was attached to a Heinkel plane factory.

336
00:43:42.867 --> 00:43:58.399
Were making the parts for planes... We were next morning were all stood up.

337
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:03.232
And the German Meisters came and picked people to, for work.

338
00:44:03.233 --> 00:44:09.099
I was very thin, didn't look very strong.

339
00:44:09.100 --> 00:44:13.766
So they didn't pick me. Me and another young man.

340
00:44:13.767 --> 00:44:17.366
So we, the two of us were standing on, no one wanted us.

341
00:44:17.367 --> 00:44:22.032
So what, what do we, what do we do, what, what do we do, with these two guys?

342
00:44:22.033 --> 00:44:31.699
So they send us to a Polish Meister to learn, to work on a lathe.

343
00:44:31.700 --> 00:44:40.899
So I, I was standing at the lathe, and and I was making a tread back and forth.

344
00:44:40.900 --> 00:44:50.232
I was putting water, with oi.. mixed with oil on it with a brush.

345
00:44:50.233 --> 00:44:53.066
For 4 weeks. I didn't learn anything.

346
00:44:53.067 --> 00:45:00.532
But after 4 weeks it was decided that I mu.. must know something about Dreherei.

347
00:45:00.533 --> 00:45:07.532
And they put me on the Revolverbank, Revolverdrehbank, to operate, Revolverdrehbank.

348
00:45:07.533 --> 00:45:13.166
Which once you were shown what to do, you did it.

349
00:45:13.167 --> 00:45:21.532
It was a, you operated the cart, after a cart after cart.

350
00:45:21.533 --> 00:45:28.466
And it w.. the hole was drilled, I didn't change the tools.

351
00:45:28.467 --> 00:45:35.899
I was, and I worked on it making one part, the same part.

352
00:45:35.900 --> 00:45:39.366
Eventually I learned to set up the machine.

353
00:45:39.367 --> 00:45:41.999
There was a setup man, and he was setting it up.

354
00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:45.499
I saw it how he is setting up a few times.

355
00:45:45.500 --> 00:45:53.599
So I learned how to set up the machine, to operate it.

356
00:45:53.600 --> 00:46:04.832
The worst time we had in Mielec, the hygienic conditions were awful.

357
00:46:04.833 --> 00:46:09.966
There was no way to wash oneself. To the bathroom,

358
00:46:09.967 --> 00:46:25.832
there was a big barrel, which we were doing our business, pouring into it...

359
00:46:25.833 --> 00:46:39.499
Lice got into my clothing and they were eating, eating alive.  I had lice everywhere.

360
00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:48.132
And the problem was that I was working one week day shift, one week night shift.

361
00:46:48.133 --> 00:46:57.232
When I worked night shift, I worked from 7 till 6 in the morning.

362
00:46:57.233 --> 00:47:00.966
I work night shift, I came back into the barrack.

363
00:47:00.967 --> 00:47:03.366
I would lay down to sleep and then I,

364
00:47:03.367 --> 00:47:09.232
in an hour the Ordnungsdienst would come up, wake up to work.

365
00:47:09.233 --> 00:47:14.599
Why? Eh, the Germans needed people to clean the streets.

366
00:47:14.600 --> 00:47:19.199
In th.. in the German section of town. So they needed people.

367
00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:23.266
So they would take me, me and other people.

368
00:47:23.267 --> 00:47:27.366
And would us bring us back around 5 o'clock.

369
00:47:27.367 --> 00:47:31.599
And soon enough we would again go to work.

370
00:47:31.600 --> 00:47:37.666
And you, you, you have to sleep!  I learned to sit at

371
00:47:37.667 --> 00:47:42.932
I, I had a stool at the Revolverbank.

372
00:47:42.933 --> 00:47:47.099
So I was sitting on the stool like this and I was operating.

373
00:47:47.100 --> 00:47:53.399
When the drill would come to an end it would click.

374
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.499
So I would push it back and start again.

375
00:47:55.500 --> 00:48:00.666
Th.. it was clicking an empty hole, and I was sleeping.

376
00:48:00.667 --> 00:48:06.399
Th.. all the... Werkschutz where going.. my back was to the main aisle.

377
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:10.899
They were walking by passing by that no one sleeps.

378
00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:18.832
I was sitting there and sleeping for 30 seconds for the operation to take place.

379
00:48:18.833 --> 00:48:23.999
So I was sleeping an hour during the night. Or an hour and a half.

380
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:29.566
I still had to make my quantity and I did.

381
00:48:29.567 --> 00:48:39.299
But I was able to sleep with my, my back like this for 30 seconds at a time.

382
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:49.666
Food: we got a small piece of bread a day and a soup which was water.

383
00:48:49.667 --> 00:48:54.899
Or it was something green floating in it.

384
00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:57.632
IV: And.. so how long did you stay in Mielec, In the..

385
00:48:57.633 --> 00:48:58.499
WN: In Mielec?

386
00:48:58.500 --> 00:48:59.466
IV: Yes.

387
00:48:59.467 --> 00:49:13.532
WN: We stayed from October until July. Now in May there was a big change.

388
00:49:13.533 --> 00:49:20.299
Suddenly we became a subsidiary of the camp in Płaszów.

389
00:49:20.300 --> 00:49:23.899
So a few young men, Jewish boys came in.

390
00:49:23.900 --> 00:49:32.466
To te.. us, to teach us to... Hut auf.

391
00:49:32.467 --> 00:49:38.666
Hut ab, Hut, Hut, now a cap, how is cap Deutsch?

392
00:49:38.667 --> 00:49:39.332
IV: Mütze.

393
00:49:39.333 --> 00:49:39.766
WN: Cap.

394
00:49:39.767 --> 00:49:42.499
IV: Cap. Yeah, you can say Mütze, oder Hut.

395
00:49:42.500 --> 00:49:42.999
WN: Mütze, Mütze.

396
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:43.666
IV: Oder Kappe.

397
00:49:43.667 --> 00:49:44.066
WN: Mütze.

398
00:49:44.067 --> 00:49:44.966
IV: Mütze, yea.

399
00:49:44.967 --> 00:49:48.399
WN: Mütze auf, Mütze an, ich weiß nicht.

400
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:52.099
IV: Hmhm.

401
00:49:52.100 --> 00:49:55.766
WN: But there was an enormous change in food.

402
00:49:55.767 --> 00:50:00.699
Suddenly there was enough food. What it turned out,

403
00:50:00.700 --> 00:50:12.566
that the Oberscharführer would sell our food supply on the black market, until he was caught.

404
00:50:12.567 --> 00:50:13.899
IV: Mmhm.

405
00:50:13.900 --> 00:50:24.999
WN: So the new Oberscharführer, we got our, the food ration. Before that the Ordnungsdienst,

406
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.199
If they needed to work, just, oh, "You come with me."

407
00:50:29.200 --> 00:50:36.732
And if you didn't they would beat you. After that, volunteer.

408
00:50:36.733 --> 00:50:40.899
When the wagon with, with bread came for unloading,

409
00:50:40.900 --> 00:50:45.366
We had to volunteer. So wh.., why did we volunteer?

410
00:50:45.367 --> 00:50:49.166
Because you, you grabbed the bread, you put it under your jacket.

411
00:50:49.167 --> 00:50:55.666
And they w.. wouldn't say anything. Because they wanted you to unload the bread.

412
00:50:55.667 --> 00:51:03.466
So there was for two months there was enough, or nearly enough, food.

413
00:51:03.467 --> 00:51:09.199
So we had, I was not starving. In July we heard the rumours,

414
00:51:09.200 --> 00:51:13.332
That the Russian army is, is coming closer and closer.

415
00:51:13.333 --> 00:51:22.332
So we were expecting the evacuation. In, in mid July.

416
00:51:22.333 --> 00:51:36.999
I think it was shortly after eh, there was eh, the, Hitler, Atte.. Attentat.

417
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:37.932
IV: Hmmm mmm.

418
00:51:37.933 --> 00:51:44.666
WN: I think it was towards the end of July. The camp was evac..

419
00:51:44.667 --> 00:51:54.599
Evacuated from Kraków, from Mielec to Wieliczka. Which is very close to Płaszów, there was a small

420
00:51:54.600 --> 00:51:54.966
IV: Mmmm.

421
00:51:54.967 --> 00:52:02.166
WN: Camps there. And we were waiting there. We didn't work.

422
00:52:02.167 --> 00:52:06.966
We got some food and were on, were just

423
00:52:06.967 --> 00:52:10.466
sleeping all day for a week, ten days.

424
00:52:10.467 --> 00:52:19.799
And from Płaszów we were evacuated to Flossenbürg. And Flossenbürg,

425
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:26.532
It was already cool, it was end of August, I think.

426
00:52:26.533 --> 00:52:29.732
And in end of August, night was cool.

427
00:52:29.733 --> 00:52:35.932
We, at, at, at night we went to, into the bath.

428
00:52:35.933 --> 00:52:41.166
The big bath hall, and we had to give up..

429
00:52:41.167 --> 00:52:43.699
We had to part with all the clothes.

430
00:52:43.700 --> 00:52:47.932
My, all, my, all of my clothes was full of lice.

431
00:52:47.933 --> 00:52:54.499
So we, we ,we had a shower and we were cleaned up.

432
00:52:54.500 --> 00:53:03.466
We cleaned ourselves up and we got new wo.. underwear and striped clothes.

433
00:53:03.467 --> 00:53:15.466
And we were put, there were two barracks where, w.. w.. we had to stay.

434
00:53:15.467 --> 00:53:19.299
I think it was 21, 22, I'm not sure about the number.

435
00:53:19.300 --> 00:53:29.032
But they were down below. And, we stayed there for couple of weeks.

436
00:53:29.033 --> 00:53:36.932
No work... and we were picked to go for transports.

437
00:53:36.933 --> 00:53:37.199
IV: Maybe...

438
00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:38.466
WN: For Aussenkommandos.

439
00:53:38.467 --> 00:53:40.066
IV: Maybe you can tell a little bit about.

440
00:53:40.067 --> 00:53:43.432
The, uh, daily life, so you didn't have to work...

441
00:53:43.433 --> 00:53:44.266
WN: We didn't work.

442
00:53:44.267 --> 00:53:48.266
IV: Uh, what about the situation in the camp, was it very crowded, what about food?

443
00:53:48.267 --> 00:53:51.299
WN: No it wasn't, eh, oh, it was not terribly crowded.

444
00:53:51.300 --> 00:53:56.032
It was, it was very crowded but was not terribly crowded.

445
00:53:56.033 --> 00:54:01.099
Eh, we had to, eh, have an appell in the morning.

446
00:54:01.100 --> 00:54:04.732
Counted in the morning, counted in the evening.

447
00:54:04.733 --> 00:54:11.166
Eh, we got a piece of bread I think a quarter of a bread

448
00:54:11.167 --> 00:54:13.766
In the evening and a bowl of soup.

449
00:54:13.767 --> 00:54:20.066
That was it for the 24 hours.  But since we didn't do anything.

450
00:54:20.067 --> 00:54:23.566
Weath.. eh, weather was beautiful, weather was sunny.

451
00:54:23.567 --> 00:54:28.266
So were sleeping all day outside of the barracks.

452
00:54:28.267 --> 00:54:37.566
And were taken, kommandos were taken out so they started picking big guys, strong.

453
00:54:37.567 --> 00:54:41.866
And it's a very good Komman.. Außenkommando to Leitmeritz.

454
00:54:41.867 --> 00:54:42.999
IV: Mmmhm.

455
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:50.232
WN: It turned out it was very bad, I, I didn't meet anyone from, some survived from Leitmeritz,

456
00:54:50.233 --> 00:54:59.132
I, I, I, di.. di.. I never met anyone. I didn't push myself, I never volunteered.

457
00:54:59.133 --> 00:55:05.199
Some people we.. were pushing them, they wanted to go to, it's so, it's so good there.

458
00:55:05.200 --> 00:55:12.366
Eh, I was chosen to go to Hersbruck.

459
00:55:12.367 --> 00:55:19.766
Were taken by trucks I believe, to Hersbruck.

460
00:55:19.767 --> 00:55:28.466
And the condition Hersbruck were terrible. We were staying in Happurg in barracks.

461
00:55:28.467 --> 00:55:34.732
Were working at night, so at 5 o'clock we, they would be

462
00:55:34.733 --> 00:55:43.366
We would be woken up, einstellen, eh, Appell, counted, onto tru.. onto trucks.

463
00:55:43.367 --> 00:55:51.299
Taken to Hersbruck, down, counted again, and taken to work in the Sch.. in the Stollen.

464
00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:56.966
Eh, I was carrying, since I was a Schlosser,

465
00:55:56.967 --> 00:56:03.799
I was carrying, carrying rails, to build eh, smaller railway...

466
00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:03.866
IV: Mmhm

467
00:56:03.867 --> 00:56:04.666
WN: Into the Stollen.

468
00:56:04.667 --> 00:56:07.399
IV: Mmhm.

469
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:18.832
WN: We would work 12 hours, 11 hours, again in the morning, anstellen, till we counted.

470
00:56:18.833 --> 00:56:21.366
Th.. the trucks would take us till we got back.

471
00:56:21.367 --> 00:56:30.566
It was probably 9 o'clock. Eh, we got coffee to sleep.

472
00:56:30.567 --> 00:56:35.632
We would go to sleep, it was terribly hot in the barracks. Eh, summer.

473
00:56:35.633 --> 00:56:41.732
And it wasn't summer it was already fall but it was very hot.

474
00:56:41.733 --> 00:56:47.132
At 12 o'clock we would, would be woken up.  Bread and soup t..

475
00:56:47.133 --> 00:56:57.666
We would give our bowl of soup and bread and go back to sleep.

476
00:56:57.667 --> 00:57:03.366
Now you couldn't, we couldn't fall asleep, would be woken up at 5 o'clock again, again.

477
00:57:03.367 --> 00:57:11.232
So if I slept 2, 3 hours I was lucky.  Back to work, for..

478
00:57:11.233 --> 00:57:14.399
In, in 2 weeks I, I couldn't anymore.

479
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:19.666
I was physically, I was, I ca.. I couldn't carry anymore.

480
00:57:19.667 --> 00:57:21.232
IV: Hmm.

481
00:57:21.233 --> 00:57:28.399
WN: And then when we were in the Appell one morning they would calling numbers.

482
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:43.632
20 people, called my number, 15672, called up to go to Flossenbürg, I didn't know why.

483
00:57:43.633 --> 00:57:52.632
Why taken to Flossenbürg? It turned out that they needed a Dreher.

484
00:57:52.633 --> 00:57:57.032
Apparently I found out few years ago in Flossenbürg.

485
00:57:57.033 --> 00:58:07.632
That they got information from Berlin with my name, number and Beruf, Dreher.

486
00:58:07.633 --> 00:58:09.566
IV: Hmmm.

487
00:58:09.567 --> 00:58:15.999
WN: So I was put to work again in shifts, one week day shift.

488
00:58:16.000 --> 00:58:26.399
One week night shift, and I worked in a little workshop for the Steinbruch.

489
00:58:26.400 --> 00:58:27.532
IV: Hmmm.

490
00:58:27.533 --> 00:58:31.766
WN: If something broke at Steinbruch we had to repair it.

491
00:58:31.767 --> 00:58:41.866
I was working on a small lathe about that big...

492
00:58:41.867 --> 00:58:51.132
I learned how to sharpen a tool, how to mount it and how to cut.

493
00:58:51.133 --> 00:58:57.999
I learned to read a drawing, and I learned to measure.

494
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:04.132
So, I, I was, I did what was needed.

495
00:59:04.133 --> 00:59:12.599
And it was very strange because at night we were five people, a group of five.

496
00:59:12.600 --> 00:59:18.866
All on Drehbänke, there were, f.. there were five Dre..

497
00:59:18.867 --> 00:59:23.999
Five lathes.  Three big ones and two small ones.

498
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:35.566
And there were four SS guards and they were staying all night.

499
00:59:35.567 --> 00:59:41.432
Each one.. each 2 for two hours. And then they would go somewhere away.

500
00:59:41.433 --> 00:59:48.599
And another two more would come.  So there were four SS men.

501
00:59:48.600 --> 00:59:58.099
To k.. to guard us.  And they were people of 50, 55 maybe 60 years old.

502
00:59:58.100 --> 01:00:00.166
We did what we, what we had to do.

503
01:00:00.167 --> 01:00:07.466
And on, we had no problems with them.

504
01:00:07.467 --> 01:00:23.232
Eh, there as a matter of fact I was making Zigarettenspitzen, out of toothbrushes and aluminium.

505
01:00:23.233 --> 01:00:26.966
If I would make one I would give them to an SS man.

506
01:00:26.967 --> 01:00:32.866
I would get a piece of bread. And a piece of bread was some...

507
01:00:32.867 --> 01:00:46.032
Was something which kept you alive. We were, were getting an additional portion of bread.

508
01:00:46.033 --> 01:00:53.332
Because we were working. And this was a difference between staying alive,

509
01:00:53.333 --> 01:01:01.966
or becoming a Muselmann and being put into the those quarantine barracks.

510
01:01:01.967 --> 01:01:08.832
Where we stayed later became barracks for the Muselmann, the people who could no longer work.

511
01:01:08.833 --> 01:01:13.366
And there you lived 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and you, you died.

512
01:01:13.367 --> 01:01:20.466
IV: Hmmm. And you had a chance to recover a little bit from, compared to Hersbruck?

513
01:01:20.467 --> 01:01:26.032
Coming back to Flo.. Flossenbürg?  So the conditions were not as hard as...

514
01:01:26.033 --> 01:01:30.832
WN: No, they were not as hard because I didn't work physically.

515
01:01:30.833 --> 01:01:31.432
IV: Hmm.

516
01:01:31.433 --> 01:01:40.699
WN: I worked during the night from 7 I think till 6 in the morning.

517
01:01:40.700 --> 01:01:43.166
So I did my job. I stayed there I,

518
01:01:43.167 --> 01:01:47.166
I didn't have to carry any stones, I didn't have to.

519
01:01:47.167 --> 01:01:52.866
I was able to sleep, during the day or during the night.

520
01:01:52.867 --> 01:01:56.466
Say I could get my 8, 8 hours of sleep.

521
01:01:56.467 --> 01:02:05.632
And the food was, eh, just enough that you didn't die.

522
01:02:05.633 --> 01:02:12.999
We g.. we got one quarter of a bread, military bread, in the evening.

523
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:14.732
IV: Hmm, hmm.

524
01:02:14.733 --> 01:02:19.266
And a bowl of soup, no, one quarter of a bread in the evening.

525
01:02:19.267 --> 01:02:23.066
In the morning we had, eh, one sixth of a bread.

526
01:02:23.067 --> 01:02:36.166
With margarine, oder a piece of meat and at lunch a little soup.

527
01:02:36.167 --> 01:02:40.932
Eh, the German Mei.. The German Meister was also a prisoner.

528
01:02:40.933 --> 01:02:49.699
He was a professional, eh, Kassenbrecher, this is German...

529
01:02:49.700 --> 01:02:51.732
IV: Kassen...

530
01:02:51.733 --> 01:02:54.266
WN: He would break into...

531
01:02:54.267 --> 01:02:56.532
IV: So like bank robbery or... something.

532
01:02:56.533 --> 01:02:56.699
WN: Not.

533
01:02:56.700 --> 01:02:56.932
IV: Not enough.

534
01:02:56.933 --> 01:02:56.966
WN: Not.

535
01:02:56.967 --> 01:02:57.466
IV: Not Bank.

536
01:02:57.467 --> 01:03:00.066
WN: Bank but... err...

537
01:03:00.067 --> 01:03:00.999
FN: Safe.

538
01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:03.899
IV: Safe, ah ja. So, Safeknacker.

539
01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:08.166
WN: He was a professional and so he was put into concentration camp.

540
01:03:08.167 --> 01:03:13.166
Probably 1938 or 1939, I know, I don't know when.

541
01:03:13.167 --> 01:03:19.666
But he was a very strict, very fair, a very fair person.

542
01:03:19.667 --> 01:03:27.532
With the soup, always after he distributed the kettle of soup there would be little left.

543
01:03:27.533 --> 01:03:31.499
Then he would say, "You, you, you, come."

544
01:03:31.500 --> 01:03:36.966
And every, every time somebody else would get the soup and he would remember.

545
01:03:36.967 --> 01:03:42.166
So I got an additional bowl of soup maybe once or twice during, ja.

546
01:03:42.167 --> 01:03:50.032
Probably four times during the eight, nine months I was working there.

547
01:03:50.033 --> 01:03:53.499
At night, he was not there at night obviously.

548
01:03:53.500 --> 01:03:56.166
But you, you, you would during the daytime.

549
01:03:56.167 --> 01:04:01.932
We had I think an hour break, lunch.

550
01:04:01.933 --> 01:04:09.232
He would distribute the soup and then we would sit, maybe...

551
01:04:09.233 --> 01:04:09.466
IV: Hmmmm

552
01:04:09.467 --> 01:04:14.432
WN: Sit, rest, for half an hour, whatever was left.

553
01:04:14.433 --> 01:04:22.266
IV: So during this time at Flossenbürg something changed, eh, when the, you've been there nine months.

554
01:04:22.267 --> 01:04:22.299
WN: I was..

555
01:04:22.300 --> 01:04:25.232
IV: So it was all the time the same situation or...

556
01:04:25.233 --> 01:04:30.766
WN: It was the same, the same situation where the some, some people run away.

557
01:04:30.767 --> 01:04:33.366
Were caught and they were hung in public.

558
01:04:33.367 --> 01:04:38.299
And we had to witness this, witness it, and I remember this.

559
01:04:38.300 --> 01:04:42.966
And, eh, we stayed in the same barracks except as the time goes.

560
01:04:42.967 --> 01:04:47.532
Went on, peo.. new, more people were coming in.

561
01:04:47.533 --> 01:04:53.432
And at the beginning were sleeping two, in a, in a bed.

562
01:04:53.433 --> 01:04:55.499
IV: Hmmm.

563
01:04:55.500 --> 01:05:00.399
WN: Then we were sleeping three and four in a bed.

564
01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:09.032
But I'm staying in the same, in the same barrack with the same Blockälteste. Bloody Alois.

565
01:05:09.033 --> 01:05:12.499
IV: Hm.

566
01:05:12.500 --> 01:05:23.566
WN: We stayed, eh, cro.. was, were, we always knew what's happening in the Front.

567
01:05:23.567 --> 01:05:25.766
IV: Mmhm.

568
01:05:25.767 --> 01:05:30.132
WN: And, eh, it would be, usually be a day or two days later,

569
01:05:30.133 --> 01:05:32.899
Than it happened but we heard what's happening.

570
01:05:32.900 --> 01:05:40.866
And we knew about when the invasion started and we, we heard that the Russians are going.

571
01:05:40.867 --> 01:05:45.999
Coming closer, and then the Americans eh, and coming closer.

572
01:05:46.000 --> 01:05:49.099
And we knew that we, we are going to be evacuated.

573
01:05:49.100 --> 01:05:56.399
We expected it.  And because I was able to get a piece of bread

574
01:05:56.400 --> 01:06:01.832
f.. from the German guards once in a while and I was able,

575
01:06:01.833 --> 01:06:06.432
And I was getting a few cigarettes monthly.

576
01:06:06.433 --> 01:06:15.899
I don't know, two or three. I was not smoking so I changed.

577
01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:21.499
You al.. you could always buy clothing for food.

578
01:06:21.500 --> 01:06:26.299
So I, I, I got a jacket, a warm jacket.

579
01:06:26.300 --> 01:06:32.999
Long jacket 'til here, winter jacket with the hat.

580
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:36.632
I got a pair of shoes, leather shoes.

581
01:06:36.633 --> 01:06:40.699
Because we had, before, we'd , I, I had wooden shoes.

582
01:06:40.700 --> 01:06:44.166
I got a good pair of good leather shoes.

583
01:06:44.167 --> 01:06:52.466
And I got a sweater and a shirt. So I was getting ready for the evacuation.

584
01:06:52.467 --> 01:06:53.966
IV: Mmhm.

585
01:06:53.967 --> 01:07:01.999
WN: And we heard before the evacuation I had to, at one point I had to carry coffee.

586
01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:08.866
From the, from the Küche to the barrack, I guess it was two people.

587
01:07:08.867 --> 01:07:16.999
We heard heavy artillery, so we knew that Americans are not far away.

588
01:07:17.000 --> 01:07:25.332
And sure enough, the morning after or two mornings after: "Juden einstellen."

589
01:07:25.333 --> 01:07:30.566
Because we were to, in barracks together with all nations. It was...

590
01:07:30.567 --> 01:07:30.666
IV: Mm.

591
01:07:30.667 --> 01:07:45.999
WN: A mixture, all Europ..  We were with French, Italians, Dutch, Ukrainians, Russians, Croats, Serbs, Poles...

592
01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:47.099
IV: Mm.

593
01:07:47.100 --> 01:07:56.166
WN: And Jews. So we had to line up and after a while

594
01:07:56.167 --> 01:07:59.632
we walked down to the railway station in Flossenbürg.

595
01:07:59.633 --> 01:08:08.066
Were put into railway cars, and they were taken, we started the journey.

596
01:08:08.067 --> 01:08:15.632
The first Luftangriff was in Floss, and there was a bit of a confusion.

597
01:08:15.633 --> 01:08:22.499
Because the guards didn't, weren't prepared for it. So the guards run out.

598
01:08:22.500 --> 01:08:28.599
In every car there were a few SS guards, with guns.

599
01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:33.499
So they run out first, but the Americans were coming down.

600
01:08:33.500 --> 01:08:39.132
And strafing the, the train. So we run out.

601
01:08:39.133 --> 01:08:46.532
And some people started running away, eh. A man I knew..

602
01:08:46.533 --> 01:08:50.599
Was, there was a sound and he run into, there was a forest.

603
01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:53.466
Run into the forest and he got away with it.

604
01:08:53.467 --> 01:09:00.466
Then the guards started shooting so people came back. I didn't run away, I stayed.

605
01:09:00.467 --> 01:09:04.999
Ehh.. the attack lasted... I think they strafed us a couple of times.

606
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:08.166
Then they saw that its not a military train.

607
01:09:08.167 --> 01:09:12.966
But it's a prisoner train so they flew away.

608
01:09:12.967 --> 01:09:17.699
We went back into the train and the train went, left.

609
01:09:17.700 --> 01:09:23.299
And we went somewhere and then we heard.., no, the bridge was bombed.

610
01:09:23.300 --> 01:09:26.632
And it couldn't get, the train couldn't get through.

611
01:09:26.633 --> 01:09:30.632
And they went another way. And we change back and forth.

612
01:09:30.633 --> 01:09:41.899
We left on Monday morning and Wednesday morning we were in Schwarzenfeld.

613
01:09:41.900 --> 01:09:51.232
And again there was a Luftangriff and they strafed us, American flyers was shooting.

614
01:09:51.233 --> 01:09:55.866
I was with a friend of mine with whom I was in camp all those years.

615
01:09:55.867 --> 01:10:03.532
In all the camps. He, he was my best friend.

616
01:10:03.533 --> 01:10:08.232
And he ran and hid under the, under the cart.

617
01:10:08.233 --> 01:10:10.332
I laid on the floor of the cart.

618
01:10:10.333 --> 01:10:13.966
Somehow we thought that laying is better then standing.

619
01:10:13.967 --> 01:10:21.232
Because they will come down like this. Standing you were presenting larger target.

620
01:10:21.233 --> 01:10:23.732
A bullet, I were, I was laying down with my hand.

621
01:10:23.733 --> 01:10:27.532
A bullet came in into the wood and splinters cut into.

622
01:10:27.533 --> 01:10:29.332
I still have it here in this hand.

623
01:10:29.333 --> 01:10:30.099
IV: Mmmm.

624
01:10:30.100 --> 01:10:38.032
WN: Here I have a scar.  But my friend was shot, in his back.

625
01:10:38.033 --> 01:10:42.766
The k.. the bullet came in, in his behind, and came out.

626
01:10:42.767 --> 01:10:49.832
And he didn't even bleed. But I don't know whether the bone was shattered, he couldn't walk.

627
01:10:49.833 --> 01:10:51.999
IV: Couldn't walk.

628
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:54.566
WN: So after the Angriff I took him, I put him.

629
01:10:54.567 --> 01:10:58.332
There was an escarpment on the side of the, of the rails.

630
01:10:58.333 --> 01:11:04.599
So I put him there, against it. And, eh, we stayed outside.

631
01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:10.999
There was a big confusion. A number of people were wounded.

632
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:13.566
How many I don't know. I stayed with my friend.

633
01:11:13.567 --> 01:11:20.632
I got him a little water. But I couldn't support, wasn't much I could do.

634
01:11:20.633 --> 01:11:26.332
And then, an.. again, eintreten, we are going away.

635
01:11:26.333 --> 01:11:30.432
The one who cannot walk will be taken by truck.

636
01:11:30.433 --> 01:11:34.499
Well we knew very well that they will be taken by truck.

637
01:11:34.500 --> 01:11:39.466
They won't be taken anywhere but shot. So I still had, eh,

638
01:11:39.467 --> 01:11:50.832
I think a couple of cigarettes left, and I had two... Zigarettenspitzen.

639
01:11:50.833 --> 01:11:53.832
So I ga.. I left him one, and I left him one.

640
01:11:53.833 --> 01:11:59.199
One cigarette, that was the last I could do for him.

641
01:11:59.200 --> 01:12:08.866
I didn't have already, I lost my, my bowl, my aluminium bowl, I lost it.

642
01:12:08.867 --> 01:12:13.632
So he gave me his, he said, "Look, I don't need it anymore."

643
01:12:13.633 --> 01:12:16.199
He didn't think he would be getting any food.

644
01:12:16.200 --> 01:12:21.266
He knew he won't be getting any food.

645
01:12:21.267 --> 01:12:29.432
And I think that we got some bread before we left.

646
01:12:29.433 --> 01:12:36.599
And we started walking.  We were divided into groups of 200.

647
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:47.466
And we walked in path.. in forest... And we walked

648
01:12:47.467 --> 01:12:53.132
till midnight, till... The SS was walking with us.

649
01:12:53.133 --> 01:12:59.832
Till we were stopped somewhere, in a, in a field.

650
01:12:59.833 --> 01:13:06.166
In the forest and were allowed to lay down to sleep.

651
01:13:06.167 --> 01:13:17.299
And it was very cold, it was April. So we were sleeping one on top of the other.

652
01:13:17.300 --> 01:13:18.632
IV: Just to warm each other...

653
01:13:18.633 --> 01:13:21.866
WN: Just to keep warm, about it.  I don't know how many.

654
01:13:21.867 --> 01:13:26.599
Maybe 8, 10 guys were laying one on top of the other.

655
01:13:26.600 --> 01:13:31.099
Now the ones who were at the bottom were carrying a lot of weight.

656
01:13:31.100 --> 01:13:35.066
So eventually they would slip out and go on the top.

657
01:13:35.067 --> 01:13:35.532
IV: Mmhm.

658
01:13:35.533 --> 01:13:40.266
WN: So there was a n.. natural exchange, you know? The ones on the bottom...

659
01:13:40.267 --> 01:13:40.299
IV: Mmhm.

660
01:13:40.300 --> 01:13:44.232
WN:  Would, couldn't take it anymore, they'd get out, but we kept..

661
01:13:44.233 --> 01:13:49.332
We kept warm during the night, we didn't freeze.

662
01:13:49.333 --> 01:13:51.732
IV: I have to look a little bit on the time...

663
01:13:51.733 --> 01:13:53.832
WN: How much? {Inaubible}

664
01:13:53.833 --> 01:13:56.999
IV: So, Ten. Ten minutes, ten minutes more...

665
01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:58.799
FN: Where I looked it's ten minutes..

666
01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:00.199
IV: Haha

667
01:14:00.200 --> 01:14:02.032
FN: Won't take too long.

668
01:14:02.033 --> 01:14:12.732
WN: We walked till Friday. Friday was a big rain. Heavy rain.

669
01:14:12.733 --> 01:14:16.732
We got all wet, and people couldn't walk.

670
01:14:16.733 --> 01:14:23.866
Who couldn't walk, they were just, my friends, people I knew..

671
01:14:23.867 --> 01:14:30.232
Lay down on the road, "I can't walk anymore," and they were shot.

672
01:14:30.233 --> 01:14:36.666
We walked we came, to little, to Neunburg.

673
01:14:36.667 --> 01:14:44.366
We haven't eaten for two days. In Neunburg there was eine Feldküche.

674
01:14:44.367 --> 01:14:49.499
And the.. We each got a handful of potatoes, boiled potatoes, small ones.

675
01:14:49.500 --> 01:14:50.832
IV: Mmhm.

676
01:14:50.833 --> 01:14:56.966
WN: So I, I, I was holding my Hemd, I got put them in the Hemd.

677
01:14:56.967 --> 01:15:02.399
I put part in my pocket and the rest I, we walked I ate.

678
01:15:02.400 --> 01:15:09.166
And that night we walked in the rain till eh, early morning.

679
01:15:09.167 --> 01:15:21.732
Then again, die SS said, "Halt!"... We stopped in a little village.

680
01:15:21.733 --> 01:15:27.166
And were put in a barn, the barn was locked.

681
01:15:27.167 --> 01:15:32.432
The barn was full of straw, hay, so I dug into hay.

682
01:15:32.433 --> 01:15:36.599
I was all wet, but I was be.. because I had the clothing.

683
01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:41.499
I was wet from here down, my clothing was wet.

684
01:15:41.500 --> 01:15:44.232
But didn't go right through so I was dry.

685
01:15:44.233 --> 01:15:45.166
IV: Mmhm.

686
01:15:45.167 --> 01:15:53.166
WN: Here I was wet but far the, the upper body was dry.

687
01:15:53.167 --> 01:16:02.032
And we stayed there till Monday morning. Sunday, the Bäuerin, they let us out Sunday morning.

688
01:16:02.033 --> 01:16:10.199
The Bäuerin gave us each a piece of bread and a piece of vegetable. Something...

689
01:16:10.200 --> 01:16:11.332
FN: Kohlrabi.

690
01:16:11.333 --> 01:16:17.999
WN: Kohlrabi, or whatever, this kept us alive.  Eh, so again I ate the piece of bread.

691
01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:23.666
Put another piece of bread, for later. I have it, had it in the evening.

692
01:16:23.667 --> 01:16:31.666
Monday morning we started walking again, and we walked... we stayed...

693
01:16:31.667 --> 01:16:35.832
I, I wish I could find the farmers wife.

694
01:16:35.833 --> 01:16:38.699
I mean, the farmers where we stayed overnight.

695
01:16:38.700 --> 01:16:42.166
And thank them because this helped me to stay alive.

696
01:16:42.167 --> 01:16:47.666
Monday morning we started walking again and we walked through Stamsried.

697
01:16:47.667 --> 01:16:58.266
In Stamsried there was great confusion. The, the Ober.. the Obersturm, had, had (???).

698
01:16:58.267 --> 01:17:01.566
He eh, he c.. he came with a motor..

699
01:17:01.567 --> 01:17:06.666
On a motorcycle, he didn't know what to do.

700
01:17:06.667 --> 01:17:13.299
Other motorcycles came in with eh, with some news, we started walking.

701
01:17:13.300 --> 01:17:17.966
We walked into the forest. We walked down and into the forest.

702
01:17:17.967 --> 01:17:22.732
I still know where it is. I took my grandchildren and showed them,

703
01:17:22.733 --> 01:17:27.832
The place where we were liberated. And in the forest..

704
01:17:27.833 --> 01:17:32.432
Suddenly, we were in groups, each group walking seperately.

705
01:17:32.433 --> 01:17:37.632
The guards had a ehh, had a ehh, command to join the groups.

706
01:17:37.633 --> 01:17:48.599
So the groups were standing s.. perhaps a kilometer long. Suddenly the guards disappeared.

707
01:17:48.600 --> 01:17:53.799
Were standing there, no guards for the first time, nobody there.

708
01:17:53.800 --> 01:17:59.766
So somebody run into the forest, nothing has happening, no shooting.

709
01:17:59.767 --> 01:18:04.766
We run into the forest and there was a sm.. small plane circling.

710
01:18:04.767 --> 01:18:08.932
And we're very much afraid of planes, and these were,

711
01:18:08.933 --> 01:18:16.999
was small American plane giving directions to the tank column.

712
01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:17.532
IV: Mmhm.

713
01:18:17.533 --> 01:18:24.899
WN: And we g.. we got on the edge, we were on a hill, high hill.

714
01:18:24.900 --> 01:18:30.666
We got on the edge, we saw the road below, and we heard noises.

715
01:18:30.667 --> 01:18:35.432
And we saw little tanks, I mean from the distance, they were little.

716
01:18:35.433 --> 01:18:37.899
They had it, they had a star on it.

717
01:18:37.900 --> 01:18:42.832
Saw it, "Oh my god, the Russians are here, how can the Russians came?"

718
01:18:42.833 --> 01:18:46.999
Then somebody said, "No, that's not Russians, that's Americans."

719
01:18:47.000 --> 01:18:53.566
It was the 3rd American Army. The tanks came first.

720
01:18:53.567 --> 01:19:02.999
So we started walking slowly down into the village...

721
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:05.999
And there was a baker in the, in the village.

722
01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:15.299
So we had some bread and the Americans were throwing whole packs of food supplies.

723
01:19:15.300 --> 01:19:21.532
And some people there was chocolate in it and, eh, there were, eh,

724
01:19:21.533 --> 01:19:28.999
hard bread and they were eating a lot and they got sick.

725
01:19:29.000 --> 01:19:33.999
I, I was, I was careful, I didn't.

726
01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:39.999
And, eh, we, we stayed in Stamsried a few days.

727
01:19:40.000 --> 01:19:44.832
And then we moved over to a flour mill.

728
01:19:44.833 --> 01:19:53.899
Perhaps one, two kilometres, between Stamsried and Friedrichsried {Friedersried}.

729
01:19:53.900 --> 01:20:00.432
We spent the night, we spent the, in the barn it was in Friedrichsried {Friedersried}.

730
01:20:00.433 --> 01:20:07.699
We stayed in the barn and then we moved over to Großenzenried.

731
01:20:07.700 --> 01:20:10.399
You must know where it is. You don't know?

732
01:20:10.400 --> 01:20:13.332
IV: So I don't know, no. I'm not living in this region.

733
01:20:13.333 --> 01:20:16.866
WN: Großenz.. Two months, were helping the farmer.

734
01:20:16.867 --> 01:20:20.966
I, some friends of mine, were helping the farmer with the hay.

735
01:20:20.967 --> 01:20:27.599
It was hay season so we were gathering the hay with the farmers.

736
01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:40.932
And then I moved to Weiden.  And... in September, no, earlier, ja, in September I think.

737
01:20:40.933 --> 01:20:46.532
I, I met a, a, a boy who came from Czechoslovakia with a little sister.

738
01:20:46.533 --> 01:20:53.032
And we became very friendly. And eventually I started going with the, with his sister.

739
01:20:53.033 --> 01:20:58.532
That's the sister, she was 15 at the time. 15? 16?

740
01:20:58.533 --> 01:21:01.566
FN: 16.

741
01:21:01.567 --> 01:21:09.699
WN: So we, we got married, eh, we, st.. started, walking together.

742
01:21:09.700 --> 01:21:21.466
In, in, in the fall.  And... in May we got married, in Weiden.

743
01:21:21.467 --> 01:21:22.999
IV: May '46?

744
01:21:23.000 --> 01:21:23.399
WN: Six.

745
01:21:23.400 --> 01:21:23.399
IV: '46.

746
01:21:23.400 --> 01:21:24.632
WN: May '46.

747
01:21:24.633 --> 01:21:26.699
FN: May '46.

748
01:21:26.700 --> 01:21:32.332
IV: So maybe the last minutes, just you, you told us a lot of facts.

749
01:21:32.333 --> 01:21:35.266
So, but maybe my last question is, uh,

750
01:21:35.267 --> 01:21:41.332
What about your emotionally situation during all this years?

751
01:21:41.333 --> 01:21:42.932
FN: In, during?

752
01:21:42.933 --> 01:21:49.932
IV: During all these years before the, you got separated from your father, from your sisters.

753
01:21:49.933 --> 01:21:53.932
You made your way alone seeing lot of horrible things.

754
01:21:53.933 --> 01:21:54.266
WN: I was...

755
01:21:54.267 --> 01:21:54.999
IV: How you survived emotionally?

756
01:21:55.000 --> 01:22:11.332
WN: I was 15 and a half... A man can be stronger than steel...

757
01:22:11.333 --> 01:22:22.399
Emotionally, emotionally, become numb. You become numb. You know your family has been killed.

758
01:22:22.400 --> 01:22:30.999
You're going to be killed tomorrow, the day after, maybe next month.

759
01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:40.666
You, you know, you're, you are afraid, but being afraid, being scared.

760
01:22:40.667 --> 01:22:49.766
You are scared, but you, you are forced to work, you are occupied.

761
01:22:49.767 --> 01:22:55.866
You are thinking about, about food, you are hungry, you are starving.

762
01:22:55.867 --> 01:23:02.999
You are thinking about your parents, you are thinking about your sister.

763
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:17.766
There's nothing you can do about it. It's... You become emotionally dumb, emotionally numb.

764
01:23:17.767 --> 01:23:26.999
You can take only so much.  But it, it, it's a question. One cannot...

765
01:23:27.000 --> 01:23:31.866
FN: Well, but the will to live, was so strong.

766
01:23:31.867 --> 01:23:37.699
WN: Yes the will, the will to live. If not the will to live.

767
01:23:37.700 --> 01:23:42.566
Very strong will to live, one couldn't survive.

768
01:23:42.567 --> 01:23:48.666
It's, it's, it's human nature to strong will to live.

769
01:23:48.667 --> 01:23:49.999
FN: And we were saying we...

770
01:23:50.000 --> 01:24:01.666
WN: And you, eh, you know, if it wouldn't be, that I have time and time again

771
01:24:01.667 --> 01:24:16.699
I had, a fortune, to have easier work.

772
01:24:16.700 --> 01:24:24.766
If, if my sisters wouldn't send me to a Schlosser, I wouldn't be live.

773
01:24:24.767 --> 01:24:31.666
Eh, if, if not that I was able to,

774
01:24:31.667 --> 01:24:35.899
if I would that I was able to have little easier work.

775
01:24:35.900 --> 01:24:44.132
Because when the very heavy work was every, every few days, the heavy lift start.. started.

776
01:24:44.133 --> 01:24:54.332
I was standing outside, with the little pallet showing directions.

777
01:24:54.333 --> 01:25:09.599
I probably wouldn't... I was young, I was growing.  Was very little food, always hungry.

778
01:25:09.600 --> 01:25:13.499
Eh, when,when we were taken to Hersbruck.

779
01:25:13.500 --> 01:25:22.499
If I wouldn't be asked to come back to Flossenbürg, I wouldn't be alive.

780
01:25:22.500 --> 01:25:23.499
FN: There were many ifs...

781
01:25:23.500 --> 01:25:30.466
WN: Uh, eh, they were one, you know it's just like throwing dice.

782
01:25:30.467 --> 01:25:35.532
And you have to come up with a seven, eh, with a six every time.

783
01:25:35.533 --> 01:25:40.999
You throw down once, you get a six, again, you get a six.

784
01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:48.332
Again, you get a six, now when you get a five you are no longer here.

785
01:25:48.333 --> 01:25:59.366
There were 3 million Jews in Poland. Many went to Russia.

786
01:25:59.367 --> 01:26:05.699
They run, they run to, eh, got away to Russia before the occupation.

787
01:26:05.700 --> 01:26:13.432
But the rest, there was half a million left I don't think so.

788
01:26:13.433 --> 01:26:20.532
So one have, when the dice were thrown one had to come up six every time.

789
01:26:20.533 --> 01:26:23.666
I was sent away to the camp.

790
01:26:23.667 --> 01:26:28.666
150 people maybe out of 2000 were sent to the camp.

791
01:26:28.667 --> 01:26:32.799
I was very unhappy, my, my father was very unhappy.

792
01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:36.999
I was unhappy, so what, you know, it was hard work.

793
01:26:37.000 --> 01:26:41.166
But this, this saved my life, the rest went to Bełżec.

794
01:26:41.167 --> 01:26:44.932
All of them, not, not one survived.

795
01:26:44.933 --> 01:26:46.966
IV: Hmmm.

796
01:26:46.967 --> 01:26:49.499
WN: And again in camp I was fortunate, many times.

797
01:26:49.500 --> 01:26:55.866
Many times I, dice were thrown, I had a six.

798
01:26:55.867 --> 01:26:59.632
IV: So and then you married in May '46.

799
01:26:59.633 --> 01:27:04.732
And then starting a new life. You tried to forget.

800
01:27:04.733 --> 01:27:04.932
FN: You never forget.

801
01:27:04.933 --> 01:27:08.599
IV: All the things, or you try, I think you never can, but you tried or...

802
01:27:08.600 --> 01:27:08.999
WN: You never can forget....

803
01:27:09.000 --> 01:27:10.999
IV: You've been talking about that?

804
01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:20.399
WN: You never, never, never forget, but you try to lead as normal life as you can.

805
01:27:20.400 --> 01:27:24.632
And getting married young I think helped me a lot.

806
01:27:24.633 --> 01:27:29.299
Because we create slowly our own family.

807
01:27:29.300 --> 01:27:34.166
And I was fortunate because my wife had parents.

808
01:27:34.167 --> 01:27:36.132
FN: Who survived in camp...

809
01:27:36.133 --> 01:27:42.666
WN: One of the very few, who sur.. The family survived intact in camp.

810
01:27:42.667 --> 01:27:47.332
And the life was very hard after the war.

811
01:27:47.333 --> 01:27:59.932
I, I worked for many years as Dreher, as a profession, I studied.

812
01:27:59.933 --> 01:28:10.566
I got an engineering, mechanical engineering degree, I worked twelve years as an engineer.

813
01:28:10.567 --> 01:28:12.999
IV: Where?

814
01:28:13.000 --> 01:28:15.499
WN: In an, in an enterprise, Kanada.

815
01:28:15.500 --> 01:28:16.999
IV: In Canada, yeah.

816
01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:25.599
WN: And, eh, eventually I was placed in charge of an enterprise.

817
01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:37.132
And, eh, I was general manager. My, my boss believed in me.

818
01:28:37.133 --> 01:28:41.766
That I have ability to run a company.

819
01:28:41.767 --> 01:28:50.699
And I was running a company, really running a company for 25 years.

820
01:28:50.700 --> 01:29:00.499
Initially as general manager, then vice president and president. Company employing 350 people.

821
01:29:00.500 --> 01:29:07.966
When I took over the company, the company had 2.6 million dollar sales.

822
01:29:07.967 --> 01:29:13.799
After 25 years we have 50 million.

823
01:29:13.800 --> 01:29:22.966
I have to my name, 60-odd patents... American.

824
01:29:22.967 --> 01:29:25.466
FN: For, but for the company, not...

825
01:29:25.467 --> 01:29:27.099
WN: Patents.

826
01:29:27.100 --> 01:29:28.466
IV: What means patents?

827
01:29:28.467 --> 01:29:31.532
WN: Patents, When you have an invention...

828
01:29:31.533 --> 01:29:38.699
IV: Ah, Patent, Patenten, Patent, ah. Yeah, well.

829
01:29:38.700 --> 01:29:51.199
WN: I work very hard all my life. But... We have three children.

830
01:29:51.200 --> 01:29:58.066
They are wonderful children. My son is cardiologist.

831
01:29:58.067 --> 01:30:11.366
He's professor at the university, Université de Montréal. He has his own laboratory.

832
01:30:11.367 --> 01:30:19.899
Now he's in his early sixties, he's travelling all over the world, giving lectures.

833
01:30:19.900 --> 01:30:33.666
He's..., because of his discoveries, in basic heart operation.

834
01:30:33.667 --> 01:30:40.599
He, he's famous in his narrow field.

835
01:30:40.600 --> 01:30:42.999
FN: And ??

836
01:30:43.000 --> 01:30:53.666
WN: Works for the largest Canadian bank, as a director of the bank. Vice president.

837
01:30:53.667 --> 01:31:00.566
My other daughter is a writer, has published several books...

838
01:31:00.567 --> 01:31:01.066
FN: So..

839
01:31:01.067 --> 01:31:05.033
IV: So there are a lot of things you can... {Inaudible}