Audiotechniker: Just, Gerät läuft, eh.
Interviewer: Eh..Es ist heute Freitag der 18. Juli. Wir befinden uns in Weiden im Hotel Admira.
Und ich werde jetzt ein Interview führen mit Herrn William Nattel....Nattel?
Der heute in Kanada lebt, äh... Er wurde geboren am 20. Oktober 1928 in Krakau.
William Nattel: 26.
IV: 26. Schon? Schon falsch {lacht}. Am 26. September in Krakau.
Eh und während seiner Haftzeit war er zweimal im, kurz, im...Stammlager, im Hauptlager Flossenbürg.
Und im Außenlager in Hersbruck. Auf dem Todesmarsch wurde er befreit in Stamsried?
WN: Stams...
IV: Stamsried. Und, eh, wie gesagt, er lebt heute in Kanada ... Gut, und du, wir können.
IV: Dann. Ja, du sagst es einfach. Und Andy du hast die Uhr mal ein bisschen im Auge, nicht?
Also einfach nur wenn sozusagen von der Zeit, für, meine.
IV: Mmhh, mmhh... Gut, now. Let's start. Maybe just, eh, a little bit.
Let's talk a little bit about where you've born, about your family, how you grew up.
WN: Yeah. Both my parents were born in Galicja.
My father was born in Nowy Sącz, Neu Sandez. My mother in Gorlice.
My, eh, father was born to a very traditional family. I didn't know my grandfather.
I was born one week after he passed away, so I carry his name.
His name was Wolf, and, a, I am Wilhelm. Eh, my father was in hardware business.
Eh, he started before First World War. During the war he served in the K und K Armee.
IV: Armee.
WN: And, er, auf, he met my mother before the war. They got married.
And my older sister was born in 1912, the younger one in 1914.
I was sort of a...late child, 12 years after...
IV: Hmmm.
WN: Oh, my younger sister was born. Eh...My father between the wars, er, especially before the
The crisis, 1929 crisis, he travelled a lot.
To Germany, France and England. And imported merchandise, hardware merchandise.
After, eh..after the, after the war he also started a small manufacturing business, manufacturing saws.
For carpenters. And small tools. He also manufactured locks. Door locks.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: I started school when I was six years old. I went to a Hebrew school.
Not traditional but very modern. And..eh, everything was taught.... in Polish.
All the subjects, except religi, relig, religious subjects.
When the war broke out I just finished the first grade of high school, Gymnasium.
The war, my mother passed away in 1935.
I was nine years old at that time.
When the war broke out on 1st of September 1939.
I recall, five, at five in the morning, we heard planes.
And, went outside, and we saw the planes flying, they were silver in colour.
It was a beautiful day, and the sun was shining, at the plane.
The sight was beautiful, but, we heard noises.
And we thought that the bombs are falling.
They were not, it, eh, artillery in Kraków. Was shooting at the planes.
And, Kraków was, was occupied, with the best my memory, on the 9th of September.
And shortly after, problems started. First was food supply.
There were...eh, shortages of food. I was a young boy.
And I was, that's when the hunger started.
And it really lasted until the very end of the war.
The first... first things we felt: Our school was closed in December.
And that's when we had to wear armbands.
Eh...when I was walking to school, within town centre, I had to pass a Catholic seminary.
The Catholic seminary was occupied by SS, I believe, SS Offizier, young.
And I was walking to school, there was a problem.
If I was wearing a hat, I got kicked because I was wearing a hat.
If I took off the hat, I would be kicked because I took off the hat.
There was no right way to pass by without being abused.
And this was, eh, the beginning... Eh, mein Vater believed that, s..strangely.
That the war between Germany and Soviet Russia is imminent.
He was being laughed by all his friends. Because the relations were so good.
Russia was exporting... Benzin, oil, grains... And relations seemed to be excellent.
And my father very firm saying: "No, these are two, two opposite political systems.
And it's going, the war is coming." So, eh, March 1940. He insisted that we leave Kraków.
Because he remembered during First World War: Kraków was eh, strong point, eine Festung.
IV: Hmm.
WN: And he was very much afraid that Kraków will be destroyed in the war.
So we moved to a little town about hundred, hundred-twenty kilometres from Kraków.
Actually it was a village. And we lived in the village.
Conditions were very, very poor. We had no money.
And the only food we had was, my father would sell some clothing.
Or...uh.. He would sell, whatever we had.
He had a gold watch with gold chain, so he would sell a
tiny piece of, of gold chain and that's how we had something to eat.
At the age of fourteen I had to register for work.
With a work office, Arbeitsamt. And I was forced to work in a quarry, stone quarry.
There were... it was a stone quarry, also sand pit.
Eh... I was physically not very strong, but anyhow, I worked till 1942.
Uh, if you'll ask, where would the stone go, and the sand?
Eh, they were sold to a, to a German company.
IV: And was, the quarry, was it far away from the village?
You've been separated from your family or?
WN: No, no. It was... perhaps, eh, half a kilometer away.
The village uh, village was Gromnik. Near Cięż...Ciężkowice.
Life was, life was very difficult. I earned... złotys, for a weeks wages.
Perhaps we, we could get a piece of...eh, half a bread. Not even that.
My father at that time was in his late fifties.
And he eh, he had a heart attack a few years before the war.
So he was not capable of working. In 1941, towards fall of 1941,
the, we had, all Jews had to be transferred to small, to the closest, little towns.
The owners of the house we lived in, were Jewish farmers.
And the family had to leave. My father had the, the emeriti...
He asked the SS man who was in charge of the transfer.
He stood in front of him and he saluted.
And he said, "I was a soldier in K und K Armee.
During First World War, four years. I beg you to leave us here."
And he said, "OK, you can stay." So we stayed till July 1942.
It was much better than moving to a small town where all the Jews were compacted.
In July 1942 we were transferred to the ghetto in Zakliczyn...
Uh, The town, aldermen - Älteste - had to supply 150 workers to the... to the Talsperre.
Which was being built in Czchów. And naturally in situations like this,
the people who were foreign, I mean, came from other villages or towns, they were picked.
And I was picked, to Czchów. At that time it seemed like a disaster happening.
Because all the, we all, heard about the workcamps.
Conditions were very bad, hard work, no food. Very little food.
So I started... I started in Czchów. I went home from Czchów to Zakliczyn.
I got permission to go twice. Once I hurt my foot.
So I had permission to go over Saturday afternoon.
And be at work on Monday morning. Eh, eh, this.
I was working there. Eh... we were digging ditches and building a waterline.
And the pipes must have been ten inches in diameter.
Which is 25 centimetres. Eh, after the ditches were dug,
I and a friend of mine had to heat a length of pipe.
I think it must have been ten meter long. Heat them.
And then dip them in very heavy oil, molasses, like asphalt.
Stores, so they were covered and they could keep them from corrosion.
We heard rumours about liquidations taking place.
My two sisters were living in Tarnów, at that time.
Which was, uh, 20-odd kilometres away. And, there was no e-mail obviously.
Ha, so we wrote cards or letters. And in, eh, June,
My older sister was killed in Tarnów, during SS action.
My younger sister was so completely terrified. She just wrote us, that she was killed.
In September 1942 I heard that the action is planned in Zakliczyn.
So I left the work and started walking to Zakliczyn.
I wanted to be with my father... You, at that time, one was not allowed.
Even the Poles were not allowed, to walk during the night.
And in every village, there were people assigned. The Poles who were responsible
that nothing, nothing happens. So we didn't have a watch.
When I was walking I felt well it's about time I, I better have a little rest.
Because I cannot come, during the night, to the ghetto...
There, I, I found a barn. There was some straw in the barn.
So I lay down, lay down to sleep. I slept. I woke up,
and it, eh, the moon came out. And there is absolutely no external light,
The moon is very bright and I thought, "Oh, the daylight is starting."
So I started walking again. Instead of daylight,
must have been four o'clock in the morning. I, I would,
I didn't walk with the road, I walked with the path.
That there was a path going among the fields, you had to know it.
Suddenly, someone yells, "Halt! What is com.. what is going here?"
And shining light into my eyes. These were two Poles.
Who were responsible in the village. Someone walking at night, what's he doing?
So they, eh, asked me questions. I didn't wear my armband.
So, they..they told, they thought I am a Pole.
My Polish was, very good, that was my mother's tongue.
So I told them I'm walking to Siemiechów which was a village, still is,
after Zakliczyn. So they said, "Oh, be careful.
Because SS around and already at the ghetto."
I, well if they surrounded the ghetto I, I was in a quandary.
Should I walk ahead to the ghetto? I would..couldn't get in.
Uh, there I would be shot. Right away.
So I, I walked in the direction where I was supposed to go to Siemiechów.
But then I, I turned around and I came, I came back to camp.
And I got sick. I was very upset obviously.
My father was there and I, I knew that they are going to take the town.
And I knew what's happening to the people they, they take away with the transport.
We knew that there they are killed right away.
I was sick a couple of days with high fever.
I was, they let me stay in the barrack.
Eh, it was a strange camp where we were building the Talsperre.
So that was a matter of digging very deeply till the rocks.
It was protected because it was in the place of the, of the, Dunajec river.
So there were steel pontoons dug into the ground.
Where they stopped the water, we were building.
Eventually there were the forms set up, wooden forms and the concrete was brought in.
I was, we had the, the camp was a civilian camp.
With a few German meisters leading the work.
With German, Herr Schneider, who was the top boss.
And Polish foremen and Polish workers and, and the Jewish workers.
We were, they were, were staying in two barracks.
And were not, were supposed to stay in the barracks after work.
So it was "stay in the barracks, go to work in the morning,
Come back to the barracks after, barracks after work."
At eh... we had a visit of SS. The company was a German company -
Beton- und Monierbau - and they hired the Jews from SS.
And they were paying, I dont know how much,
to the SS daily per man, so and so much.
The SS came in and they looked around.
And many of the Jewish boys, were... pipemakers.
They were work... I was working in the installation.
And eh, had relatively good jobs. And they, they got very upset.
And they started then yelling at the German Meister.
That the Jews had to be put "schwerste und dreckigste Arbeit."
So I was put in the cement and the concrete factory.
Where the cement was mixed with sand.
So when the, when the, the concrete was being poured 2-3 days for a section.
After the section was built, perhaps a day or two, we did something else.
So we had to carry the concrete sacks, empty them over a sieve.
A large sieve so no paper would get in.
And from there it would go, automatically mixed with sand and little stones.
And the proportion was water mixed and would go for pouring concrete.
This was very heavy work because we had to run with the sacks of cement.
Each sack of cement was 50 kilogram... I was... I was very fortunate.
I was fortunate many times... During... at one point there were an order to bring the concrete.
To pour into the wooden forms. There was a cable car.
Cable installation constru..., constructed so there two big towers on rails.
And the towers were carrying the heavy cable across.
The installation was perhaps three-, four hundred metres long.
So there was a cable going over it and the cable carried buckets.
Heavy buckets of concrete so there was a man standing down with a little, round...
Frau Nattel: Flag.
WN: Pardon.
FN: Flag.
WN: Not the flag. Ehm, like, like a small ping pong pallet.
A lit.., a round pallet about this diameter, white with a red border on a little stick.
And he would be directing the driver on the tower.
Which was far away. Because he didn't see what was happening.
When, when he was lowering the bucket of concrete.
So the, what the first pouring started, the German Meister,
His name was Herr Müller, came himself down to see how it's going.
So a Pole was directing the, the little bucket of concrete.
And he gave the wrong direction. Now the bucket of concrete,
Was hanging 30m from the rail so it was swinging.
So you have to direct... the driver, which was far away on, on the tower.
To stop the swinging when you start lowering the bucket.
Because if the bucket starts swinging it will destroy everything.
IV: Mmhm, mmhm, mm. ...
WN: Was very heavy. So he gave the wrong sign and the bucket hit the concrete.
The installation where concrete was being poured and the concrete started running out.
It was, the instal, the concrete, the installation was perhaps two storeys high.
Because built up, storey upon storey, the concrete started pouring.
It was a mess and Herr Müller got very upset.
He started shouting at the poor Pole. I thought, he's going to hit him.
I was standing by with the shovel because I had to clean up the concrete.
So, he asked me, "Verstehen Sie Deutsch?"
At that time I didn't speak German much but I understood.
So I said, "Ja, ja, ich verstehe etwas", so he showed me:
"Look, this is up, this is down, this is to the forward.
This is back, this is what you have to show. This is stop."
So I said: "Ok". So from then on I was pouring the conc'
I was standing there with the concrete being poured.
So I, I didn't, I was lucky I didn't have to do the hard job.
And this was very important because if someone had money you could buy some food.
I had no money. I had a few hundred eh, złoty which my father gave me.
He took away from, from himself, this lasted four weeks.
I, I bought a bread, I took a piece every day...
There were several cases like this where simply, I was lucky.
The first one, my sisters in 1940, when they moved from Kraków to Tarnów.
And we lived in the village 20km away.
They said: "What's going on with the boy?
He's not going to school. He has to learn something."
One sister was, had then finished graph..., high graphic school.
Another was studying at the Jagielloński university in Kraków.
So that they said, they'll teach me.
So I, I moved to Tarnów, and stayed with my sisters.
After, eh, they were teaching me for a month, six weeks.
Then they said, "Look, this, our teaching won't do you much good.
You have to learn a trade." Under the German occupation you had to have a trade.
Ehh, a degree, with a degree you could, you could show that.
So they said, "Ok, you will learn Schlosserei."
So they send me to a Jewish Schlosser and he was working in a, in a basement.
Where there was, sometimes before, a brick floor.
But the bricks with time turned into dust, so there was red dust on the floor.
There were, he had no power, no electric power.
So he had a coup.. few drills, hand drills and you turned.
He had eh, Smithy. Smithy is, he was a... ein Schmied.
IV: Schmied. Yeah.
WN: So I had to lift a 5 kilogramm hammer.
When he was hitting with a little hammer, I had to hit with the big hammer.
I barely was able, barely able to lift the hammer, never mind hit it.
IV: Hm.
WN: Eh... he showed me, I had to hit what he hit with his little hammer.
Anyhow, at that time it, I, he was paying me a złoty, friday, Trinkgeld.
IV: Mmhmm.
WN: Well I brough.., brought my first złoty, and I gave it to my sisters.
It was my first earned money, I was very proud, my first złoty. You could...
IV: Buy... anything.
WN: Why was it, later it turned out important. I couldn't stay.
I stayed with the sisters perhaps three months.
I had to register also in Arbeitsamt, and, and then come once a month.
So I came one month. I was assigned to unloading wagons, railway wagons.
It was for the army, the army brought in barracks, barrack parts.
The barrack parts were very heavy, and we had to unload the barrack.
The, the parts, and carry them, maybe 100 metres, 200 metres and stack them up.
And eight men were carrying the barracks.
Now I was at that time nearly as tall as I am now.
Probably taller because I shrunk a little with age.
IV: Haha.
WN: So I carried. I was walking, I was carrying. Now the other boys were carrying like this.
Eh, there is a big difference between carrying like this and carrying like this.
And I, I carried probably a quarter of the weight.
I carried the parts all day long. They took my documents away in the morning.
A German soldier took it away in the morning.
And in the evening after work he gave me this back and he said: "Come back tomorrow morning."
I said: "Ok." I went back home to my sisters, they had one room.
We slept, two sisters and I in one room.
The next morning I tried to get off the bed, I couldn't.
All my muscles were completely stiff, I, I, I couldn't bend my leg, I couldn't get off the bed.
So I didn't go. Well, the, he gave me back my documents so nothing, nothing bad happened.
It took two, three days till I was able to walk.
Walk down from the bed and walk down the stairs.
But I, what happened, I had, I had to register with the police, police, Polish police.
I didn't, I had no right to move at that time from the village to town.
So the police started looking for me. So I was sleeping at some friends, sisters' friends.
But this was good, one night, two nights, three nights but eventually I had to come back to the village.
I, I jumped sort of in order to explain about how I, how I became a Schlosser.
So then when I came to camp I registered, "what's your profession?"
"Ich bin ein Schlosser." So this is why I worked at pipes.
IV: Ehm.
WN: Now we stayed in Czchów till October, to be exact October 18th 1943.
We started in '42 in July, and we ended in October.
And it... during late summer, 1943, I was corresponding with my sister.
My sister somewhere obtained, Aryan papers, that she's an Aryan, a Pole.
And she was, she got the po.. position as a governess at the Polish lord.
He had a large, eh, estate and he was, the children were taught by a governess.
My sister was highly qualified, eh, she spoke German, she spoke English, she spoke Polish.
So she was teaching the children for some time.
In, in the fall, must have been September, I'm again I'm thin.., going back.
We were bring.. at one point we had to bring the cement from this station.
And in Bochnia, if I'm not mistaken, to Czchów to the workplace.
And we were a group of Jewish boys and two of them run away.
Eh, to run away was, you could run away.
But run away where? How are we doing timewise?
IV: So now we are, we pass more than half of the time we have altogether.
So, just, maybe just take a little. Take, drink, drink.
FN: {??} Water.
IV: Ja.
FN: Take.
WN: They declared that should any, anyone who run away, ten will be killed...
One evening someone was screaming, callling me, "Nattel, someone is looking for you!"
So I run to the fence and there was a young man who introduced himself.
Eh, he is a Pole and my sister sent him to bring me from the camp to her.
I should just run away. He brought me a heavy jacket and a hat.
So I could wear it and I'll go with him.
And I was in a quandary, should I run away.
And then people would be killed, or should I stay. I decided to stay.
I, I couldn't bring it upon myself to have peop.. ten people on my conscience.
So I send him away back to tell my sister that I cannot run away.
By the time I got to the barracks the police was already looking for me.
Someone already notified the police that he is a guy.
Ehm, who may run away because somebody came to him and is talking to him.
So I got, they hit me a few times, though.
Just for the sport of it and I stayed obviously.
We stayed till October 18th 1943 in the morning.
Were surrounded by SS, put on trucks and taken to Mielec.
Eh, Mielec was a camp of three thousand people.
The camp was attached to a Heinkel plane factory.
Were making the parts for planes... We were next morning were all stood up.
And the German Meisters came and picked people to, for work.
I was very thin, didn't look very strong.
So they didn't pick me. Me and another young man.
So we, the two of us were standing on, no one wanted us.
So what, what do we, what do we do, what, what do we do, with these two guys?
So they send us to a Polish Meister to learn, to work on a lathe.
So I, I was standing at the lathe, and and I was making a tread back and forth.
I was putting water, with oi.. mixed with oil on it with a brush.
For 4 weeks. I didn't learn anything.
But after 4 weeks it was decided that I mu.. must know something about Dreherei.
And they put me on the Revolverbank, Revolverdrehbank, to operate, Revolverdrehbank.
Which once you were shown what to do, you did it.
It was a, you operated the cart, after a cart after cart.
And it w.. the hole was drilled, I didn't change the tools.
I was, and I worked on it making one part, the same part.
Eventually I learned to set up the machine.
There was a setup man, and he was setting it up.
I saw it how he is setting up a few times.
So I learned how to set up the machine, to operate it.
The worst time we had in Mielec, the hygienic conditions were awful.
There was no way to wash oneself. To the bathroom,
there was a big barrel, which we were doing our business, pouring into it...
Lice got into my clothing and they were eating, eating alive. I had lice everywhere.
And the problem was that I was working one week day shift, one week night shift.
When I worked night shift, I worked from 7 till 6 in the morning.
I work night shift, I came back into the barrack.
I would lay down to sleep and then I,
in an hour the Ordnungsdienst would come up, wake up to work.
Why? Eh, the Germans needed people to clean the streets.
In th.. in the German section of town. So they needed people.
So they would take me, me and other people.
And would us bring us back around 5 o'clock.
And soon enough we would again go to work.
And you, you, you have to sleep! I learned to sit at
I, I had a stool at the Revolverbank.
So I was sitting on the stool like this and I was operating.
When the drill would come to an end it would click.
So I would push it back and start again.
Th.. it was clicking an empty hole, and I was sleeping.
Th.. all the... Werkschutz where going.. my back was to the main aisle.
They were walking by passing by that no one sleeps.
I was sitting there and sleeping for 30 seconds for the operation to take place.
So I was sleeping an hour during the night. Or an hour and a half.
I still had to make my quantity and I did.
But I was able to sleep with my, my back like this for 30 seconds at a time.
Food: we got a small piece of bread a day and a soup which was water.
Or it was something green floating in it.
IV: And.. so how long did you stay in Mielec, In the..
WN: In Mielec?
IV: Yes.
WN: We stayed from October until July. Now in May there was a big change.
Suddenly we became a subsidiary of the camp in Płaszów.
So a few young men, Jewish boys came in.
To te.. us, to teach us to... Hut auf.
Hut ab, Hut, Hut, now a cap, how is cap Deutsch?
IV: Mütze.
WN: Cap.
IV: Cap. Yeah, you can say Mütze, oder Hut.
WN: Mütze, Mütze.
IV: Oder Kappe.
WN: Mütze.
IV: Mütze, yea.
WN: Mütze auf, Mütze an, ich weiß nicht.
IV: Hmhm.
WN: But there was an enormous change in food.
Suddenly there was enough food. What it turned out,
that the Oberscharführer would sell our food supply on the black market, until he was caught.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: So the new Oberscharführer, we got our, the food ration. Before that the Ordnungsdienst,
If they needed to work, just, oh, "You come with me."
And if you didn't they would beat you. After that, volunteer.
When the wagon with, with bread came for unloading,
We had to volunteer. So wh.., why did we volunteer?
Because you, you grabbed the bread, you put it under your jacket.
And they w.. wouldn't say anything. Because they wanted you to unload the bread.
So there was for two months there was enough, or nearly enough, food.
So we had, I was not starving. In July we heard the rumours,
That the Russian army is, is coming closer and closer.
So we were expecting the evacuation. In, in mid July.
I think it was shortly after eh, there was eh, the, Hitler, Atte.. Attentat.
IV: Hmmm mmm.
WN: I think it was towards the end of July. The camp was evac..
Evacuated from Kraków, from Mielec to Wieliczka. Which is very close to Płaszów, there was a small
IV: Mmmm.
WN: Camps there. And we were waiting there. We didn't work.
We got some food and were on, were just
sleeping all day for a week, ten days.
And from Płaszów we were evacuated to Flossenbürg. And Flossenbürg,
It was already cool, it was end of August, I think.
And in end of August, night was cool.
We, at, at, at night we went to, into the bath.
The big bath hall, and we had to give up..
We had to part with all the clothes.
My, all, my, all of my clothes was full of lice.
So we, we ,we had a shower and we were cleaned up.
We cleaned ourselves up and we got new wo.. underwear and striped clothes.
And we were put, there were two barracks where, w.. w.. we had to stay.
I think it was 21, 22, I'm not sure about the number.
But they were down below. And, we stayed there for couple of weeks.
No work... and we were picked to go for transports.
IV: Maybe...
WN: For Aussenkommandos.
IV: Maybe you can tell a little bit about.
The, uh, daily life, so you didn't have to work...
WN: We didn't work.
IV: Uh, what about the situation in the camp, was it very crowded, what about food?
WN: No it wasn't, eh, oh, it was not terribly crowded.
It was, it was very crowded but was not terribly crowded.
Eh, we had to, eh, have an appell in the morning.
Counted in the morning, counted in the evening.
Eh, we got a piece of bread I think a quarter of a bread
In the evening and a bowl of soup.
That was it for the 24 hours. But since we didn't do anything.
Weath.. eh, weather was beautiful, weather was sunny.
So were sleeping all day outside of the barracks.
And were taken, kommandos were taken out so they started picking big guys, strong.
And it's a very good Komman.. Außenkommando to Leitmeritz.
IV: Mmmhm.
WN: It turned out it was very bad, I, I didn't meet anyone from, some survived from Leitmeritz,
I, I, I, di.. di.. I never met anyone. I didn't push myself, I never volunteered.
Some people we.. were pushing them, they wanted to go to, it's so, it's so good there.
Eh, I was chosen to go to Hersbruck.
Were taken by trucks I believe, to Hersbruck.
And the condition Hersbruck were terrible. We were staying in Happurg in barracks.
Were working at night, so at 5 o'clock we, they would be
We would be woken up, einstellen, eh, Appell, counted, onto tru.. onto trucks.
Taken to Hersbruck, down, counted again, and taken to work in the Sch.. in the Stollen.
Eh, I was carrying, since I was a Schlosser,
I was carrying, carrying rails, to build eh, smaller railway...
IV: Mmhm
WN: Into the Stollen.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: We would work 12 hours, 11 hours, again in the morning, anstellen, till we counted.
Th.. the trucks would take us till we got back.
It was probably 9 o'clock. Eh, we got coffee to sleep.
We would go to sleep, it was terribly hot in the barracks. Eh, summer.
And it wasn't summer it was already fall but it was very hot.
At 12 o'clock we would, would be woken up. Bread and soup t..
We would give our bowl of soup and bread and go back to sleep.
Now you couldn't, we couldn't fall asleep, would be woken up at 5 o'clock again, again.
So if I slept 2, 3 hours I was lucky. Back to work, for..
In, in 2 weeks I, I couldn't anymore.
I was physically, I was, I ca.. I couldn't carry anymore.
IV: Hmm.
WN: And then when we were in the Appell one morning they would calling numbers.
20 people, called my number, 15672, called up to go to Flossenbürg, I didn't know why.
Why taken to Flossenbürg? It turned out that they needed a Dreher.
Apparently I found out few years ago in Flossenbürg.
That they got information from Berlin with my name, number and Beruf, Dreher.
IV: Hmmm.
WN: So I was put to work again in shifts, one week day shift.
One week night shift, and I worked in a little workshop for the Steinbruch.
IV: Hmmm.
WN: If something broke at Steinbruch we had to repair it.
I was working on a small lathe about that big...
I learned how to sharpen a tool, how to mount it and how to cut.
I learned to read a drawing, and I learned to measure.
So, I, I was, I did what was needed.
And it was very strange because at night we were five people, a group of five.
All on Drehbänke, there were, f.. there were five Dre..
Five lathes. Three big ones and two small ones.
And there were four SS guards and they were staying all night.
Each one.. each 2 for two hours. And then they would go somewhere away.
And another two more would come. So there were four SS men.
To k.. to guard us. And they were people of 50, 55 maybe 60 years old.
We did what we, what we had to do.
And on, we had no problems with them.
Eh, there as a matter of fact I was making Zigarettenspitzen, out of toothbrushes and aluminium.
If I would make one I would give them to an SS man.
I would get a piece of bread. And a piece of bread was some...
Was something which kept you alive. We were, were getting an additional portion of bread.
Because we were working. And this was a difference between staying alive,
or becoming a Muselmann and being put into the those quarantine barracks.
Where we stayed later became barracks for the Muselmann, the people who could no longer work.
And there you lived 4 weeks, 6 weeks, and you, you died.
IV: Hmmm. And you had a chance to recover a little bit from, compared to Hersbruck?
Coming back to Flo.. Flossenbürg? So the conditions were not as hard as...
WN: No, they were not as hard because I didn't work physically.
IV: Hmm.
WN: I worked during the night from 7 I think till 6 in the morning.
So I did my job. I stayed there I,
I didn't have to carry any stones, I didn't have to.
I was able to sleep, during the day or during the night.
Say I could get my 8, 8 hours of sleep.
And the food was, eh, just enough that you didn't die.
We g.. we got one quarter of a bread, military bread, in the evening.
IV: Hmm, hmm.
And a bowl of soup, no, one quarter of a bread in the evening.
In the morning we had, eh, one sixth of a bread.
With margarine, oder a piece of meat and at lunch a little soup.
Eh, the German Mei.. The German Meister was also a prisoner.
He was a professional, eh, Kassenbrecher, this is German...
IV: Kassen...
WN: He would break into...
IV: So like bank robbery or... something.
WN: Not.
IV: Not enough.
WN: Not.
IV: Not Bank.
WN: Bank but... err...
FN: Safe.
IV: Safe, ah ja. So, Safeknacker.
WN: He was a professional and so he was put into concentration camp.
Probably 1938 or 1939, I know, I don't know when.
But he was a very strict, very fair, a very fair person.
With the soup, always after he distributed the kettle of soup there would be little left.
Then he would say, "You, you, you, come."
And every, every time somebody else would get the soup and he would remember.
So I got an additional bowl of soup maybe once or twice during, ja.
Probably four times during the eight, nine months I was working there.
At night, he was not there at night obviously.
But you, you, you would during the daytime.
We had I think an hour break, lunch.
He would distribute the soup and then we would sit, maybe...
IV: Hmmmm
WN: Sit, rest, for half an hour, whatever was left.
IV: So during this time at Flossenbürg something changed, eh, when the, you've been there nine months.
WN: I was..
IV: So it was all the time the same situation or...
WN: It was the same, the same situation where the some, some people run away.
Were caught and they were hung in public.
And we had to witness this, witness it, and I remember this.
And, eh, we stayed in the same barracks except as the time goes.
Went on, peo.. new, more people were coming in.
And at the beginning were sleeping two, in a, in a bed.
IV: Hmmm.
WN: Then we were sleeping three and four in a bed.
But I'm staying in the same, in the same barrack with the same Blockälteste. Bloody Alois.
IV: Hm.
WN: We stayed, eh, cro.. was, were, we always knew what's happening in the Front.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: And, eh, it would be, usually be a day or two days later,
Than it happened but we heard what's happening.
And we knew about when the invasion started and we, we heard that the Russians are going.
Coming closer, and then the Americans eh, and coming closer.
And we knew that we, we are going to be evacuated.
We expected it. And because I was able to get a piece of bread
f.. from the German guards once in a while and I was able,
And I was getting a few cigarettes monthly.
I don't know, two or three. I was not smoking so I changed.
You al.. you could always buy clothing for food.
So I, I, I got a jacket, a warm jacket.
Long jacket 'til here, winter jacket with the hat.
I got a pair of shoes, leather shoes.
Because we had, before, we'd , I, I had wooden shoes.
I got a good pair of good leather shoes.
And I got a sweater and a shirt. So I was getting ready for the evacuation.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: And we heard before the evacuation I had to, at one point I had to carry coffee.
From the, from the Küche to the barrack, I guess it was two people.
We heard heavy artillery, so we knew that Americans are not far away.
And sure enough, the morning after or two mornings after: "Juden einstellen."
Because we were to, in barracks together with all nations. It was...
IV: Mm.
WN: A mixture, all Europ.. We were with French, Italians, Dutch, Ukrainians, Russians, Croats, Serbs, Poles...
IV: Mm.
WN: And Jews. So we had to line up and after a while
we walked down to the railway station in Flossenbürg.
Were put into railway cars, and they were taken, we started the journey.
The first Luftangriff was in Floss, and there was a bit of a confusion.
Because the guards didn't, weren't prepared for it. So the guards run out.
In every car there were a few SS guards, with guns.
So they run out first, but the Americans were coming down.
And strafing the, the train. So we run out.
And some people started running away, eh. A man I knew..
Was, there was a sound and he run into, there was a forest.
Run into the forest and he got away with it.
Then the guards started shooting so people came back. I didn't run away, I stayed.
Ehh.. the attack lasted... I think they strafed us a couple of times.
Then they saw that its not a military train.
But it's a prisoner train so they flew away.
We went back into the train and the train went, left.
And we went somewhere and then we heard.., no, the bridge was bombed.
And it couldn't get, the train couldn't get through.
And they went another way. And we change back and forth.
We left on Monday morning and Wednesday morning we were in Schwarzenfeld.
And again there was a Luftangriff and they strafed us, American flyers was shooting.
I was with a friend of mine with whom I was in camp all those years.
In all the camps. He, he was my best friend.
And he ran and hid under the, under the cart.
I laid on the floor of the cart.
Somehow we thought that laying is better then standing.
Because they will come down like this. Standing you were presenting larger target.
A bullet, I were, I was laying down with my hand.
A bullet came in into the wood and splinters cut into.
I still have it here in this hand.
IV: Mmmm.
WN: Here I have a scar. But my friend was shot, in his back.
The k.. the bullet came in, in his behind, and came out.
And he didn't even bleed. But I don't know whether the bone was shattered, he couldn't walk.
IV: Couldn't walk.
WN: So after the Angriff I took him, I put him.
There was an escarpment on the side of the, of the rails.
So I put him there, against it. And, eh, we stayed outside.
There was a big confusion. A number of people were wounded.
How many I don't know. I stayed with my friend.
I got him a little water. But I couldn't support, wasn't much I could do.
And then, an.. again, eintreten, we are going away.
The one who cannot walk will be taken by truck.
Well we knew very well that they will be taken by truck.
They won't be taken anywhere but shot. So I still had, eh,
I think a couple of cigarettes left, and I had two... Zigarettenspitzen.
So I ga.. I left him one, and I left him one.
One cigarette, that was the last I could do for him.
I didn't have already, I lost my, my bowl, my aluminium bowl, I lost it.
So he gave me his, he said, "Look, I don't need it anymore."
He didn't think he would be getting any food.
He knew he won't be getting any food.
And I think that we got some bread before we left.
And we started walking. We were divided into groups of 200.
And we walked in path.. in forest... And we walked
till midnight, till... The SS was walking with us.
Till we were stopped somewhere, in a, in a field.
In the forest and were allowed to lay down to sleep.
And it was very cold, it was April. So we were sleeping one on top of the other.
IV: Just to warm each other...
WN: Just to keep warm, about it. I don't know how many.
Maybe 8, 10 guys were laying one on top of the other.
Now the ones who were at the bottom were carrying a lot of weight.
So eventually they would slip out and go on the top.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: So there was a n.. natural exchange, you know? The ones on the bottom...
IV: Mmhm.
WN: Would, couldn't take it anymore, they'd get out, but we kept..
We kept warm during the night, we didn't freeze.
IV: I have to look a little bit on the time...
WN: How much? {Inaubible}
IV: So, Ten. Ten minutes, ten minutes more...
FN: Where I looked it's ten minutes..
IV: Haha
FN: Won't take too long.
WN: We walked till Friday. Friday was a big rain. Heavy rain.
We got all wet, and people couldn't walk.
Who couldn't walk, they were just, my friends, people I knew..
Lay down on the road, "I can't walk anymore," and they were shot.
We walked we came, to little, to Neunburg.
We haven't eaten for two days. In Neunburg there was eine Feldküche.
And the.. We each got a handful of potatoes, boiled potatoes, small ones.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: So I, I, I was holding my Hemd, I got put them in the Hemd.
I put part in my pocket and the rest I, we walked I ate.
And that night we walked in the rain till eh, early morning.
Then again, die SS said, "Halt!"... We stopped in a little village.
And were put in a barn, the barn was locked.
The barn was full of straw, hay, so I dug into hay.
I was all wet, but I was be.. because I had the clothing.
I was wet from here down, my clothing was wet.
But didn't go right through so I was dry.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: Here I was wet but far the, the upper body was dry.
And we stayed there till Monday morning. Sunday, the Bäuerin, they let us out Sunday morning.
The Bäuerin gave us each a piece of bread and a piece of vegetable. Something...
FN: Kohlrabi.
WN: Kohlrabi, or whatever, this kept us alive. Eh, so again I ate the piece of bread.
Put another piece of bread, for later. I have it, had it in the evening.
Monday morning we started walking again, and we walked... we stayed...
I, I wish I could find the farmers wife.
I mean, the farmers where we stayed overnight.
And thank them because this helped me to stay alive.
Monday morning we started walking again and we walked through Stamsried.
In Stamsried there was great confusion. The, the Ober.. the Obersturm, had, had (???).
He eh, he c.. he came with a motor..
On a motorcycle, he didn't know what to do.
Other motorcycles came in with eh, with some news, we started walking.
We walked into the forest. We walked down and into the forest.
I still know where it is. I took my grandchildren and showed them,
The place where we were liberated. And in the forest..
Suddenly, we were in groups, each group walking seperately.
The guards had a ehh, had a ehh, command to join the groups.
So the groups were standing s.. perhaps a kilometer long. Suddenly the guards disappeared.
Were standing there, no guards for the first time, nobody there.
So somebody run into the forest, nothing has happening, no shooting.
We run into the forest and there was a sm.. small plane circling.
And we're very much afraid of planes, and these were,
was small American plane giving directions to the tank column.
IV: Mmhm.
WN: And we g.. we got on the edge, we were on a hill, high hill.
We got on the edge, we saw the road below, and we heard noises.
And we saw little tanks, I mean from the distance, they were little.
They had it, they had a star on it.
Saw it, "Oh my god, the Russians are here, how can the Russians came?"
Then somebody said, "No, that's not Russians, that's Americans."
It was the 3rd American Army. The tanks came first.
So we started walking slowly down into the village...
And there was a baker in the, in the village.
So we had some bread and the Americans were throwing whole packs of food supplies.
And some people there was chocolate in it and, eh, there were, eh,
hard bread and they were eating a lot and they got sick.
I, I was, I was careful, I didn't.
And, eh, we, we stayed in Stamsried a few days.
And then we moved over to a flour mill.
Perhaps one, two kilometres, between Stamsried and Friedrichsried {Friedersried}.
We spent the night, we spent the, in the barn it was in Friedrichsried {Friedersried}.
We stayed in the barn and then we moved over to Großenzenried.
You must know where it is. You don't know?
IV: So I don't know, no. I'm not living in this region.
WN: Großenz.. Two months, were helping the farmer.
I, some friends of mine, were helping the farmer with the hay.
It was hay season so we were gathering the hay with the farmers.
And then I moved to Weiden. And... in September, no, earlier, ja, in September I think.
I, I met a, a, a boy who came from Czechoslovakia with a little sister.
And we became very friendly. And eventually I started going with the, with his sister.
That's the sister, she was 15 at the time. 15? 16?
FN: 16.
WN: So we, we got married, eh, we, st.. started, walking together.
In, in, in the fall. And... in May we got married, in Weiden.
IV: May '46?
WN: Six.
IV: '46.
WN: May '46.
FN: May '46.
IV: So maybe the last minutes, just you, you told us a lot of facts.
So, but maybe my last question is, uh,
What about your emotionally situation during all this years?
FN: In, during?
IV: During all these years before the, you got separated from your father, from your sisters.
You made your way alone seeing lot of horrible things.
WN: I was...
IV: How you survived emotionally?
WN: I was 15 and a half... A man can be stronger than steel...
Emotionally, emotionally, become numb. You become numb. You know your family has been killed.
You're going to be killed tomorrow, the day after, maybe next month.
You, you know, you're, you are afraid, but being afraid, being scared.
You are scared, but you, you are forced to work, you are occupied.
You are thinking about, about food, you are hungry, you are starving.
You are thinking about your parents, you are thinking about your sister.
There's nothing you can do about it. It's... You become emotionally dumb, emotionally numb.
You can take only so much. But it, it, it's a question. One cannot...
FN: Well, but the will to live, was so strong.
WN: Yes the will, the will to live. If not the will to live.
Very strong will to live, one couldn't survive.
It's, it's, it's human nature to strong will to live.
FN: And we were saying we...
WN: And you, eh, you know, if it wouldn't be, that I have time and time again
I had, a fortune, to have easier work.
If, if my sisters wouldn't send me to a Schlosser, I wouldn't be live.
Eh, if, if not that I was able to,
if I would that I was able to have little easier work.
Because when the very heavy work was every, every few days, the heavy lift start.. started.
I was standing outside, with the little pallet showing directions.
I probably wouldn't... I was young, I was growing. Was very little food, always hungry.
Eh, when,when we were taken to Hersbruck.
If I wouldn't be asked to come back to Flossenbürg, I wouldn't be alive.
FN: There were many ifs...
WN: Uh, eh, they were one, you know it's just like throwing dice.
And you have to come up with a seven, eh, with a six every time.
You throw down once, you get a six, again, you get a six.
Again, you get a six, now when you get a five you are no longer here.
There were 3 million Jews in Poland. Many went to Russia.
They run, they run to, eh, got away to Russia before the occupation.
But the rest, there was half a million left I don't think so.
So one have, when the dice were thrown one had to come up six every time.
I was sent away to the camp.
150 people maybe out of 2000 were sent to the camp.
I was very unhappy, my, my father was very unhappy.
I was unhappy, so what, you know, it was hard work.
But this, this saved my life, the rest went to Bełżec.
All of them, not, not one survived.
IV: Hmmm.
WN: And again in camp I was fortunate, many times.
Many times I, dice were thrown, I had a six.
IV: So and then you married in May '46.
And then starting a new life. You tried to forget.
FN: You never forget.
IV: All the things, or you try, I think you never can, but you tried or...
WN: You never can forget....
IV: You've been talking about that?
WN: You never, never, never forget, but you try to lead as normal life as you can.
And getting married young I think helped me a lot.
Because we create slowly our own family.
And I was fortunate because my wife had parents.
FN: Who survived in camp...
WN: One of the very few, who sur.. The family survived intact in camp.
And the life was very hard after the war.
I, I worked for many years as Dreher, as a profession, I studied.
I got an engineering, mechanical engineering degree, I worked twelve years as an engineer.
IV: Where?
WN: In an, in an enterprise, Kanada.
IV: In Canada, yeah.
WN: And, eh, eventually I was placed in charge of an enterprise.
And, eh, I was general manager. My, my boss believed in me.
That I have ability to run a company.
And I was running a company, really running a company for 25 years.
Initially as general manager, then vice president and president. Company employing 350 people.
When I took over the company, the company had 2.6 million dollar sales.
After 25 years we have 50 million.
I have to my name, 60-odd patents... American.
FN: For, but for the company, not...
WN: Patents.
IV: What means patents?
WN: Patents, When you have an invention...
IV: Ah, Patent, Patenten, Patent, ah. Yeah, well.
WN: I work very hard all my life. But... We have three children.
They are wonderful children. My son is cardiologist.
He's professor at the university, Université de Montréal. He has his own laboratory.
Now he's in his early sixties, he's travelling all over the world, giving lectures.
He's..., because of his discoveries, in basic heart operation.
He, he's famous in his narrow field.
FN: And ??
WN: Works for the largest Canadian bank, as a director of the bank. Vice president.
My other daughter is a writer, has published several books...
FN: So..
IV: So there are a lot of things you can... {Inaudible}