1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,832
CM: Ok, rolling.

2
00:00:02,833 --> 00:00:06,032
IV 1: Today is Friday, April 25.

3
00:00:06,033 --> 00:00:12,099
We are in Weiden in Hotel Admira and are now conducting an interview with Mr. Shlomo Selinger. 

4
00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:18,032
He was born on May 31, 1928 in Poland in Jaworzno.

5
00:00:18,033 --> 00:00:18,999
ShS: Szczakowa-Jaworzno.

6
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:19,666
IV 1: Szczak..

7
00:00:19,667 --> 00:00:21,432
ShS: Szczakowa-Jaworzno.

8
00:00:21,433 --> 00:00:23,332
IV1: Szczaowa-Jaworzno?

9
00:00:23,333 --> 00:00:26,166
Thank you.

10
00:00:26,167 --> 00:00:34,432
Uh...and after an odyssey through many camps he arrived in Flossenbürg.

11
00:00:34,433 --> 00:00:36,799
CM: Yes, it's running

12
00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:44,532
IV2: Could we...could you tell us a bit about your birth, your childhood, your family.

13
00:00:44,533 --> 00:00:44,666
ShS: Yes.

14
00:00:44,667 --> 00:00:47,666
IV2:   From your education in Poland.

15
00:00:47,667 --> 00:00:55,099
ShS: Uh...I was born into a Jewish family in Poland.

16
00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:58,866
Uh.. in a city called Szczakowa.

17
00:00:58,867 --> 00:01:02,666
Today it is called Szczakowa-Jaworzno.

18
00:01:02,667 --> 00:01:09,999
Uh, in a relatively wealthy family.

19
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:31,132
Uh, the Jews in our city were not very wealthy, but my father (clears throat) worked in Katowice, in Kattowitz. 

20
00:01:31,133 --> 00:01:40,966
And every morning my father left by train, he needed 25 minutes to get to Katowice to his business.

21
00:01:40,967 --> 00:01:46,632
Uh, so I had quite a happy childhood.

22
00:01:46,633 --> 00:01:50,132
Uh, to give an impression: 

23
00:01:50,133 --> 00:01:55,566
on the holidays we drove to the mountains. 

24
00:01:55,567 --> 00:02:04,566
Um, as a child I went skiing and then we were in the mountains, in Lapka

25
00:02:04,567 --> 00:02:18,699
My family was not poor, in comparison to most of the Jews in this city.

26
00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:31,532
My father, uh, our city belonged to Austria before World War I.

27
00:02:31,533 --> 00:02:39,066
My great grandfather had 16 children and produced vodka.

28
00:02:39,067 --> 00:02:54,999
He received a medal from the kaiser because ten of his children fought in World War I. 

29
00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,732
I didn't learn this until after the war. 

30
00:02:58,733 --> 00:03:08,066
And, uh, when, uh, yes

31
00:03:08,067 --> 00:03:24,932
So I remember that I had blond hair and when I was around three years old, I remember I was taken to a barber and my hair was cut off. 

32
00:03:24,933 --> 00:03:45,332
And I began attending a Jewish school called "Chaider" where I started learning the alphabet, the Hebrew letters and the Jewish prayers.

33
00:03:45,333 --> 00:03:55,499
Uh, a bit later I began studying the Bible, the Torah.

34
00:03:55,500 --> 00:04:23,332
And since we spoke Polish at home and the Bible in the Jewish schools had been translated literally from Hebrew to Yiddish, I could recite languages that I didn't speak.

35
00:04:23,333 --> 00:04:29,332
And so I was not a good pupil. 

36
00:04:29,333 --> 00:04:36,199
And, uh, still, I made some progress. 

37
00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:43,299
We studied the Bible, then the translation, the interpretation of the Bible from Rashi. 

38
00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:56,966
And a little later, when I was around six and a half, we began to study the Mishnah, that means the beginning of the Talmud. 

39
00:04:56,967 --> 00:05:12,166
And with seven, that was the age when Polish children began to attend public school.

40
00:05:12,167 --> 00:05:16,666
So I went (clears throat) to the public school.

41
00:05:16,667 --> 00:05:42,099
And there...I had already gone to the Jewish school, although I was a poor pupil, in, uh, learning laws...what was in the Bible, the interpretation of the Bible. 

42
00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:48,432
And in the Polish school I began to learn "A,B,C" with the others.

43
00:05:48,433 --> 00:05:54,032
So there was a certain discrepancy between...

44
00:05:54,033 --> 00:06:05,832
But I was not an exceptional pupil in the Polish school, I was an average pupil. 

45
00:06:05,833 --> 00:06:18,432
And then I remember that I liked math and I'd always enjoyed history. 

46
00:06:18,433 --> 00:06:31,766
And, and I liked grammar, those were the things that I liked. 

47
00:06:31,767 --> 00:06:34,832
Uh, yes. 

48
00:06:34,833 --> 00:06:39,032
That was our childhood.

49
00:06:39,033 --> 00:06:41,299
We went away on the holidays. 

50
00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:44,299
Sometimes to my grandmother in Michów.

51
00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:50,032
And my...usually to the mountains.

52
00:06:50,033 --> 00:07:06,232
And when I was 11 years old, uh, in September, Poland was attacked by the German army. 

53
00:07:06,233 --> 00:07:14,599
And I was in Michów... at my grandmother's.

54
00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:20,232
Uh...the German troops arrived.

55
00:07:20,233 --> 00:07:31,299
The...tanks were parked on the market square. 

56
00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:43,366
And since then...it was also...It was exactly the Jewish celebration of Rosch ha-Shana, the Jewish new year. 

57
00:07:43,367 --> 00:07:55,099
And since the synagogue was already occupied, I don't know, with the cavalry or with horses. 

58
00:07:55,100 --> 00:08:05,699
The Jews had gathered to pray in private homes. 

59
00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:09,099
My father had taken me with him.

60
00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:17,266
And the soldiers arrived in the middle of prayer. 

61
00:08:17,267 --> 00:08:26,699
And they took us away in the middle of prayer. 

62
00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:31,399
My father was handed a broom. 

63
00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:42,999
At other places the people who were praying were given shovels.

64
00:08:43,000 --> 00:09:05,999
My father was with other Jews there...he had to sweep the market square.

65
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:16,632
And I knew that since my father did not have a beard, that he was not...

66
00:09:16,633 --> 00:09:25,266
there were no assaults...but some of the others who had beards, their beards were torn off. 

67
00:09:25,267 --> 00:09:46,932
And they gave these people shovels and after they had entertained themselves for a while by humiliating these religious Jews, they were led out of the city. 

68
00:09:46,933 --> 00:09:51,066
And they dug out their graves.

69
00:09:51,067 --> 00:09:52,666
And they were executed.

70
00:09:52,667 --> 00:10:05,766
That was my first contact with the, uh, Nazi regime.

71
00:10:05,767 --> 00:10:21,766
And that is why I, uh, after Poland was occupied, my family returned to my city in Szczakowa.

72
00:10:21,767 --> 00:10:32,199
And it was...our city was not very far from, ok, let's not speak of Auschwitz yet. 

73
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:38,499
And between, uh, it was not far from Katowice. From Kattowitz.

74
00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:46,999
And there were... in our city, people who had gone to my school.

75
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,999
And I had a buddy who was German.

76
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,866
He was my friend. Initially. 

77
00:10:52,867 --> 00:10:54,999
One is, one is...

78
00:10:55,000 --> 00:11:12,366
But when I returned to Szczakowa, uh Lewko -- his name was Lewko - he was already wearing a uniform of the Hitler Youth. 

79
00:11:12,367 --> 00:11:16,799
He had a small bayonet here on the side. 

80
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:26,332
And, and he had forgotten our friendship. 

81
00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:29,966
He came with a knife and robbed me.

82
00:11:29,967 --> 00:11:32,432
He took things away from me.

83
00:11:32,433 --> 00:11:36,832
I had a precious box made out of I don't know what.

84
00:11:36,833 --> 00:11:44,766
I know that he came to our house that evening, maybe to give it back to me

85
00:11:44,767 --> 00:11:49,332
And his parents were a little ashamed of him.

86
00:11:49,333 --> 00:11:52,666
I assume..I want to believe this.

87
00:11:52,667 --> 00:12:00,099
That his parents...that is what I think now.

88
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:25,566
It was enough, enough just to put a child in a uniform, a uniform of the Hitler Youth, and he can march along in the marches. 

89
00:12:25,567 --> 00:12:35,332
I remember, uh, it was...I am not musical, but I remember the words: 

90
00:12:35,333 --> 00:12:47,966
The...The blood of Jews splashes on the knife, will be, will be good again. That will be something...like that.

91
00:12:47,967 --> 00:13:15,732
And the others began to march too...letting the children march, the groups on the fields... and brainwashing. 

92
00:13:15,733 --> 00:13:23,232
And then a group...because a group doesn't have a brain. 

93
00:13:23,233 --> 00:13:25,166
That is a horde. 

94
00:13:25,167 --> 00:13:32,032
It has no...a group has neither a brain nor a heart. 

95
00:13:32,033 --> 00:13:39,732
It marches like, like a horde. 

96
00:13:39,733 --> 00:13:58,966
And, and, and among the children, normal people, totally normal, with totally normal ethics. 

97
00:13:58,967 --> 00:14:10,566
Uh, they can become, no, I won't say animals because that would be insulting to animals.  

98
00:14:10,567 --> 00:14:18,832
become criminal.

99
00:14:18,833 --> 00:14:22,332
That is it. 

100
00:14:22,333 --> 00:14:38,399
I still recall, at the beginning we were not supposed to...we were to go out two or three hours daily, besides for work.

101
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:48,966
And I remember, um, there were...we were annexed like Alsace-Lorraine.

102
00:14:48,967 --> 00:14:52,832
And so the police was the German police.

103
00:14:52,833 --> 00:14:54,899
They were Schupos.

104
00:14:54,900 --> 00:15:03,132
And I still recall the names of three Schupos, one was Krieger, he had a big dog. 

105
00:15:03,133 --> 00:15:10,066
And there was Kuhn, a huge person, who

106
00:15:10,067 --> 00:15:13,499
And there was Linke, Linke. 

107
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:21,466
Linke had...I have never seen a Jew with a nose like that. 

108
00:15:21,467 --> 00:15:25,199
LInke had a nose like that.

109
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:32,766
And I think he hated Jews because of his nose. 

110
00:15:32,767 --> 00:15:41,999
I think, I think, it was not the Stürmer who... I think he was imitating the Stürmer.

111
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,832
That is how his nose was. 

112
00:15:46,833 --> 00:15:54,432
Now I recall, um, because when a German passed by, a Jew had to raise his hat.

113
00:15:54,433 --> 00:15:57,499
That was the rule. 

114
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:06,432
Uh, he goes into our house, I don't know how. 

115
00:16:06,433 --> 00:16:12,966
And he sees me in a corner, we were stunned, and he begins to slap me. 

116
00:16:12,967 --> 00:16:21,799
And my mother, who was standing next to me, began to scream. 

117
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,599
"But, but...he is just a child! He is just a child!"

118
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:34,366
Then he opened his eyes, the eyes of a calf.

119
00:16:34,367 --> 00:16:44,199
He looked at my mother, turned around and left, slamming the door. 

120
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:56,466
Uh, we had there...the small Jewish community was organized into a Jewish council. 

121
00:16:56,467 --> 00:17:05,066
And each time the Jewish council had to provide people, people to perform compulsory labor. 

122
00:17:05,067 --> 00:17:25,166
Often it was to, to...the work was to shovel snow...they went from the station of Szczakowa all the way to Jaworzno.

123
00:17:25,167 --> 00:17:29,932
That was about 5 kilometers. 

124
00:17:29,933 --> 00:17:43,366
But one day they told us...they ordered a group of people, I was among them, to shovel snow. 

125
00:17:43,367 --> 00:17:47,532
I think that was in 1940.

126
00:17:47,533 --> 00:17:57,832
Und shoveling snow between their barracks and the slaughterhouse where there were very large trees.

127
00:17:57,833 --> 00:18:13,666
And as the day darkened, trucks arrived, vans arrived. 

128
00:18:13,667 --> 00:18:38,132
Uh and people, plainclothed, some plainclothed and some in uniform, set up scaffolding and fastened ropes to the trees.

129
00:18:38,133 --> 00:18:44,999
And the entire city, around noon, everyone had to come.

130
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:55,666
And we, who...who cleaned the entire area...we had to stay at the site.

131
00:18:55,667 --> 00:19:01,499
I was maybe 12 years old. 

132
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:06,266
No, no yet...maybe...

133
00:19:06,267 --> 00:19:15,232
And I was there on the left side. 

134
00:19:15,233 --> 00:19:30,066
And on the tree across from me, I saw that they had brought my teacher from my youth there.  

135
00:19:30,067 --> 00:19:47,566
And, and, when they placed the rope around his neck, I heard him praying in Hebrew. 

136
00:19:47,567 --> 00:19:52,666
Schma Israel, A-donaj E-lohejnu, A-donaj Echad.

137
00:19:52,667 --> 00:19:59,366
And then the chair was pulled away. 

138
00:19:59,367 --> 00:20:11,799
By the way, we had, I don't know how, uh my wife Ruthy was able to get a copy of the photo of the hanging. 

139
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:22,799
Because all these trees...there were...I don't know who these people were who were hanged. 

140
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,499
Perhaps Polish intellectuals, perhaps Jews, but...

141
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:39,232
And the only, the only one that stayed in my memory, who, who uh...

142
00:20:39,233 --> 00:20:45,532
That was also the first time that I had ever seen a dead person. 

143
00:20:45,533 --> 00:20:54,066
Ok. Then I began working in a factory...

144
00:20:54,067 --> 00:21:04,766
And at a certain point they took us from the houses and created a kind of ghetto. 

145
00:21:04,767 --> 00:21:12,866
And that was a...ghetto...a small village next to Szczakowa.

146
00:21:12,867 --> 00:21:18,366
A village surrounded by the river Kozi Bród.

147
00:21:18,367 --> 00:21:22,299
And a railroad ramp.

148
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:25,399
And to get in one had to go through a gate. 

149
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,899
So we were locked in a ghetto. 

150
00:21:29,900 --> 00:21:36,132
And I left this ghetto every day to go to the factory where I started working. 

151
00:21:36,133 --> 00:21:48,666
And in this ghetto, it was very ... quite a small village, there were only a few people in it, very few buildings.

152
00:21:48,667 --> 00:21:56,566
I think, in every room, there were four, four or five families, one after the next.

153
00:21:56,567 --> 00:21:59,599
But that didn't last long. 

154
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:12,166
Because...And then they gathered the Jews from all the surrounding villages. 

155
00:22:12,167 --> 00:22:15,866
They gathered them there. 

156
00:22:15,867 --> 00:22:37,499
And then, one day, early in the  morning, the sun had not yet risen, one heard that the SS had arrived. 

157
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:51,299
Since we lived next to Auschwitz, they gathered us there.

158
00:22:51,300 --> 00:22:58,799
And this time uh my father, my mother and my little sister were uh spared.

159
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,599
And we went to Chrzanów for a few months. 

160
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:09,366
That is around 5, 6 kilometers from Szczakowa.

161
00:23:09,367 --> 00:23:23,432
We only stayed there briefly, and selections took place there too. 

162
00:23:23,433 --> 00:23:25,832
The people, they went... uh, yes...

163
00:23:25,833 --> 00:23:33,232
Because at the first selection my oldest sister was sent to a labor camp in Germany. 

164
00:23:33,233 --> 00:23:41,999
And, and I don't know by what luck that some families came to Chrzanów.

165
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:49,332
The rest was...they went away to the labor camps in Germany. 

166
00:23:49,333 --> 00:23:57,032
And the rest went straight to Auschwitz into the gas chambers. 

167
00:23:57,033 --> 00:24:05,166
Uh we didn't know that there were gas chambers, even though it was so close.

168
00:24:05,167 --> 00:24:09,232
 One couldn't imagine something like that. 

169
00:24:09,233 --> 00:24:17,332
But there were rumors here and there that they were killing there. 

170
00:24:17,333 --> 00:24:24,499
But one couldn't imaging that it was "systematic killing." 

171
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,766
In quotation marks.

172
00:24:27,767 --> 00:24:36,066
And when I arrived in Chrzanów, I worked in a...

173
00:24:36,067 --> 00:24:51,266
there were German businesses, tailors, tailors...they made clothing. 

174
00:24:51,267 --> 00:25:04,232
They gathered together all the machines of the Jewish tailors and built a factory, to produce clothing. 

175
00:25:04,233 --> 00:25:17,599
I think there was also...clothing for the army was also made there.

176
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:23,999
And that lasted a few months. 

177
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:37,166
And then again, one morning at dawn, I was not awake yet, my...

178
00:25:37,167 --> 00:25:43,366
I didn't see my mother and my little sister again, they had reached safety.

179
00:25:43,367 --> 00:25:45,666
And I stayed with my father. 

180
00:25:45,667 --> 00:25:58,866
And they came to our yard and into our house and yelled: 

181
00:25:58,867 --> 00:26:00,332
"Hands up!"

182
00:26:00,333 --> 00:26:04,666
And everyone had to raise their hands and go outside. 

183
00:26:04,667 --> 00:26:08,532
And they brought us to the school. 

184
00:26:08,533 --> 00:26:11,666
To the school of Chrzanów.

185
00:26:11,667 --> 00:26:21,966
In the school of Chrzanów, once again we were very close to Auschwitz, selections were carried out from there. 

186
00:26:21,967 --> 00:26:29,666
And right away my father was separated from me. 

187
00:26:29,667 --> 00:26:38,799
And I went downstairs with my friends who were my age. 

188
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:43,866
And there were women there, old people, women with children. 

189
00:26:43,867 --> 00:26:48,599
And so...I didn't understand. 

190
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:56,499
But suddenly, something made me move toward the selections

191
00:26:56,500 --> 00:27:07,099
where the German police were were guarding the selection between those who ... the larger group that was below

192
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:22,599
and the few others, the healthy people and the young girls that ... were separated on the above levels. 

193
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:39,266
And there was...a policeman from the ghetto, Huber-Schönberg, a Jew, he saw me there on the side, near the selection.

194
00:27:39,267 --> 00:27:41,266
He started to yell. 

195
00:27:41,267 --> 00:27:42,832
I was thirteen years old.

196
00:27:42,833 --> 00:27:48,099
He began to yell: "What  are you doing here. You are 17 years old."

197
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:55,966
And the German police didn't have time to react and he pushed me back upstairs. 

198
00:27:55,967 --> 00:28:00,999
And so I was with my father. 

199
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:12,732
And with my father, they first sent us to Sosnowiec, a transit camp. 

200
00:28:12,733 --> 00:28:32,466
And from there to a, a camp in Germany, that was called Faulbrück and then to Gröditz, they were next to each other. 

201
00:28:32,467 --> 00:28:45,966
And Faulbrück, Faulbrück, in Faulbrück we went every morning... they had us...there was a former factory. 

202
00:28:45,967 --> 00:28:55,666
And there were beds set up. 

203
00:28:55,667 --> 00:29:05,099
And there were also fathers and sons among us. 

204
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:19,999
My father and... every morning we went to work, to Reichenbach, where we had to dig foundations. I think for Krupp. 

205
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,699
For the Krupp factories that were expanded here at extraordinary speed. 

206
00:29:24,700 --> 00:29:30,499
Ok, I'll return to my father. 

207
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:39,199
And, and, and, the dehumanization that took place.

208
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:48,799
They completely dehumanized us, by starving us, abusing us, beating us. 

209
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,166
Beating.

210
00:29:50,167 --> 00:30:01,332
My father, there were fathers...although it is said that the dehumanization was very effective. 

211
00:30:01,333 --> 00:30:07,966
We former deportees often hide this. 

212
00:30:07,967 --> 00:30:11,832
But I won't hide it.

213
00:30:11,833 --> 00:30:18,432
They dehumanized us ... it was very effective.

214
00:30:18,433 --> 00:30:30,232
And there were fathers and sons who fought over a little extra or a little less bread.

215
00:30:30,233 --> 00:30:37,499
When I speak to people about bread, they think I am talking about bread. 

216
00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:39,199
But it is not about bread.

217
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,999
It is about surviving one more day.

218
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,099
It is not...it is not a question of bread. 

219
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:48,799
It is a question of life. 

220
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:58,532
And it is difficult to explain this when I go to universities and speak to students about this. 

221
00:30:58,533 --> 00:31:01,532
I have to stress this. 

222
00:31:01,533 --> 00:31:15,899
And, and, and I was there with my father, and my father wanted me to have a somewhat larger piece of bread. 

223
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:22,032
That is why, uh, I didn't...I was a child. 

224
00:31:22,033 --> 00:31:28,666
And, and I wanted my father to have a bit more. 

225
00:31:28,667 --> 00:31:37,366
And it was just a short period in which I got to know my father because in life I didn't know my father well. 

226
00:31:37,367 --> 00:31:39,332
He was always busy. 

227
00:31:39,333 --> 00:31:42,799
He went, uh, he went to work. 

228
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,766
He came home in the evening. 

229
00:31:44,767 --> 00:31:58,632
Saturdays, uh, that was a surprise for me because he arrived and made...he tested me on what I had learned in the Jewish school. 

230
00:31:58,633 --> 00:32:00,899
And I was no good. 

231
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:10,466
Incidently, I can still remember everything that I could not...what I could not answer to my father, I know that all by heart now. 

232
00:32:10,467 --> 00:32:11,766
That is very strange. 

233
00:32:11,767 --> 00:32:15,566
It is...how the brain works. 

234
00:32:15,567 --> 00:32:25,999
But...and in the camp he...my father never reproached me for anything.

235
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,666
But I learned a lesson for life. 

236
00:32:28,667 --> 00:32:31,432
from dignity...about dignity. 

237
00:32:31,433 --> 00:32:33,499
Through his example.

238
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:40,766
And even the other inmates respected him. 

239
00:32:40,767 --> 00:32:48,532
We were on the building site, and, and, the first time I...

240
00:32:48,533 --> 00:33:02,666
at the building site we came from excavation work and had to push a cart with steel pipes.

241
00:33:02,667 --> 00:33:06,232
And that was very hard, we pushed.

242
00:33:06,233 --> 00:33:15,499
And there was a foreman there, a civilian, he had it out for my father. 

243
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:32,099
He insulted him, he beat him and he began, uh..he didn't stop until his nose and mouth were covered in blood. 

244
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:55,332
Uh, and my father was not so much affected by the physical treatment as by the great.. the insults that the foreman could get away with.

245
00:33:55,333 --> 00:34:01,999
And he repeated... he told me that. He told me that. 

246
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:10,932
And, a bit later, my father became weak.

247
00:34:10,933 --> 00:34:23,266
And then, uh, they brought him to the barracks.

248
00:34:23,267 --> 00:34:34,399
And one day, they told me that they would take good care of my father.

249
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,499
That they would bring him to a "recuperation camp."

250
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:49,832
A recuperation camp, after the war I learned that my father was murdered in a shameful way. 

251
00:34:49,833 --> 00:35:00,199
They put a water hose in his mouth and let him burst from the inside. 

252
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:09,099
And there was, uh, someone who...saw him in the corner that was called Brande. Brande.

253
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:12,399
That was the so-called recuperation camp.

254
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:24,466
And one even came back from Gröditz.

255
00:35:24,467 --> 00:35:29,766
Someone uh came back from Brande. 

256
00:35:29,767 --> 00:35:35,099
And each time he wanted to speak to me about my father. 

257
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:41,532
And I, I knew that they had killed him. 

258
00:35:41,533 --> 00:35:45,332
But I didn't want them to tell me. 

259
00:35:45,333 --> 00:35:52,899
And I was...each time I went away, I didn't want, didn't want to know. 

260
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:56,799
I didn't want to know. 

261
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,666
That's how it was. 

262
00:36:01,667 --> 00:36:08,432
I also worked in Gröditz. 

263
00:36:08,433 --> 00:36:17,199
And from Gröditz, yes, And my father...I was 14 years old, about 14 years old. 

264
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:24,966
And I was left behind, without anyone, in the hell. 

265
00:36:24,967 --> 00:36:30,766
And slowly I made a friend. 

266
00:36:30,767 --> 00:36:32,899
Uh Rawer. 

267
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:48,399
And there was a place, that...there was...uh Gröditz is a place where there was a barbwire fence, but not electric.

268
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,699
But on the other side there were potatoes. 

269
00:36:52,700 --> 00:37:12,632
And since we were starving, at night Rawer and I...he kept look out and I, uh, as usual, I risked it. 

270
00:37:12,633 --> 00:37:23,532
I crossed the fence and filled up.. under my shirt, with potatoes. 

271
00:37:23,533 --> 00:37:34,899
And when leaving the light went on and a guard was there. 

272
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:39,032
He brought me to the guardroom. 

273
00:37:39,033 --> 00:37:42,666
First he took away the potatoes of course.

274
00:37:42,667 --> 00:37:47,032
My friend Rawer had disappeared. 

275
00:37:47,033 --> 00:37:57,466
And he made a deal with me. I give you ten beatings. 

276
00:37:57,467 --> 00:38:07,466
If you scream, uh, I'll report you. 

277
00:38:07,467 --> 00:38:12,799
And if you don't scream, I'll forget you. 

278
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:19,332
And I leaned over a stool. 

279
00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:31,699
And with all his strength, with a, uh thin, I don't know what it was, rubber or a cable. 

280
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:44,199
or a rubber cable with an electrical cord on the inside or so. 

281
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:54,366
I recall that I bit my teeth into the stool and and I didn't make a sound. 

282
00:38:54,367 --> 00:38:59,266
I stopped breathing.

283
00:38:59,267 --> 00:39:04,399
And so he forgot me. 

284
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:09,332
That's how it was. 

285
00:39:09,333 --> 00:39:26,799
From there uh...there was a transfer of a few inmates from uh from Gröditz to Markstädt

286
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:34,166
And I was among these inmates. 

287
00:39:34,167 --> 00:39:39,232
I was already in bad shape. 

288
00:39:39,233 --> 00:39:49,132
And in Markstädt I caught pneumonia.

289
00:39:49,133 --> 00:39:52,332
IV1: Excuse me.

290
00:39:52,333 --> 00:39:53,766
IV1: One moment.

291
00:39:53,767 --> 00:39:58,699
We have to...we only have a half hour. I think we have to speed up a bit so that we get to Flossenbürg. 

292
00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:00,799
ShS: Oh, i didn't yet...

293
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:01,366
IV1: Just, otherwise...

294
00:40:01,367 --> 00:40:08,399
I haven't spoken yet about a hanging in Faulbrück. I would like to tell this. 

295
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:08,732
V2: Oh, Ok.

296
00:40:08,733 --> 00:40:11,532
ShS: I'll go back again.

297
00:40:11,533 --> 00:40:14,332
IV2: Mr. Selinger, but then we have to...

298
00:40:14,333 --> 00:40:16,766
We still have a half hour. We have time. 

299
00:40:16,767 --> 00:40:23,132
But and then to Flossenbürg, we mustn't get too detailed, for example about Fünfteichen, ok? 

300
00:40:23,133 --> 00:40:23,466
ShS: Yes, I...

301
00:40:23,467 --> 00:40:23,932
IV2: So, you...

302
00:40:23,933 --> 00:40:31,232
ShS: I am going to tell about an important scene from Faulbrück, as my father was still there.

303
00:40:31,233 --> 00:40:33,366
IV2: He wants to continue speaking, from where he was but I told him that..

304
00:40:33,367 --> 00:40:35,366
IV2: After that we will try. 

305
00:40:35,367 --> 00:40:39,832
ShS: Yes. In Faulbrück. Uh. 

306
00:40:39,833 --> 00:40:42,066
Is it ok? Can I...is it working?

307
00:40:42,067 --> 00:40:45,599
IV1: Yes.

308
00:40:45,600 --> 00:41:00,932
ShS: Uh, one morning, that means in the middle of the night, maybe at four o'clock, three, four o'clock, they woke us up much earlier.  

309
00:41:00,933 --> 00:41:08,066
And they gave us this soup, this, this soup, to call this soup, liquid. 

310
00:41:08,067 --> 00:41:14,132
And they brought us to a fenced-in area where there were trees. 

311
00:41:14,133 --> 00:41:18,999
And all these trees were...

312
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:25,632
Our comrades were hanging on all these trees.  

313
00:41:25,633 --> 00:41:31,332
I began to drink this soup and suddenly I saw feet. 

314
00:41:31,333 --> 00:41:47,632
This is how they showed us, uh, they typified uh, our purpose. 

315
00:41:47,633 --> 00:42:00,232
That we were definitely a part of uh that we were programmed not to exist. 

316
00:42:00,233 --> 00:42:06,099
In part by the immediate murder in the baths with gas. 

317
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:12,099
In part through this slogan "extermination through work."

318
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:16,032
So then I arrived in Markstädt.

319
00:42:16,033 --> 00:42:29,599
I became sick there and a kapo...the winter began. 

320
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:35,232
He extended my stay in the sick barrack. 

321
00:42:35,233 --> 00:42:40,866
And, and he gave me an extra soup. 

322
00:42:40,867 --> 00:42:46,466
And that is how I survived. 

323
00:42:46,467 --> 00:42:51,799
And in Markstädt I worked in excavation. 

324
00:42:51,800 --> 00:43:01,666
We always dug the foundations for the Krupp factory. 

325
00:43:01,667 --> 00:43:14,066
And one day, uh, next to the Markstädt, our camp, in Markstädt we were only Jews. 

326
00:43:14,067 --> 00:43:18,832
uh, it was a large camp, Fünfteichen. 

327
00:43:18,833 --> 00:43:28,866
It was not yet run by the police like our camp, but by the SS. 

328
00:43:28,867 --> 00:43:45,032
And, uh, they got us undressed, and we were brought before a commission of SS doctors. 

329
00:43:45,033 --> 00:43:55,399
And they gave us prisoner clothes, pyjamas. 

330
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:18,832
And we were given an identification number that we always had to say when we were...at roll calls. 

331
00:44:18,833 --> 00:44:34,432
And in Fünfteichen I was given 25 beatings on my behind 

332
00:44:34,433 --> 00:44:38,932
Elsewhere too. 

333
00:44:38,933 --> 00:44:56,232
And my comrades helped me to find work at the building site that was not too strenuous since I couldn't...at night I couldn't sleep on my back. 

334
00:44:56,233 --> 00:45:09,132
And, and Fünfteichen, uh a new prisoner transport was supposed to arrive. 

335
00:45:09,133 --> 00:45:13,266
They had us do sports. 

336
00:45:13,267 --> 00:45:17,632
That means: squats and jumps, so. 

337
00:45:17,633 --> 00:45:20,166
And the roll-call grounds.

338
00:45:20,167 --> 00:45:21,366
(someone coughs)

339
00:45:21,367 --> 00:45:28,666
ShS: And the roll-call grounds were filled with exhausted prisoners. 

340
00:45:28,667 --> 00:45:40,466
We, since we were already starving when we arrived, abused at the building site, we waited for this, this chance to get this small soup. 

341
00:45:40,467 --> 00:45:50,766
Uh and yes...I see too...Sundays. 

342
00:45:50,767 --> 00:46:02,632
On Sundays, from time to time they made us wear our jackets inside-out, with the buttons on the inside. 

343
00:46:02,633 --> 00:46:07,399
And we transported earth from one place and then from another place. 

344
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:15,966
And we endured the beatings of the SS and kapos. 

345
00:46:15,967 --> 00:46:25,866
And we were dependent on the large camp, uh the main camp, that was Gross-Rosen. 

346
00:46:25,867 --> 00:46:40,666
And Gross-Rosen was different than Buchenwald where the politicals had taken power. 

347
00:46:40,667 --> 00:46:46,832
Whereas with us, it was the green triangles, the criminals.

348
00:46:46,833 --> 00:46:57,099
And for them killing meant nothing. 

349
00:46:57,100 --> 00:47:10,866
And, and, and...the killing definitively continued.

350
00:47:10,867 --> 00:47:26,566
And every morning there was...the living and the dead who had died during the night were brought to the roll-call grounds.

351
00:47:26,567 --> 00:47:44,632
And we brought the people with us from the building site who couldn't survive the work or the beatings from the kapos at the building site. 

352
00:47:44,633 --> 00:47:55,732
But we went every morning...in front of the gate there was a prisoner orchestra. 

353
00:47:55,733 --> 00:48:04,966
And there were musicians among them, the greatest musicians of Europe, who played these idiotic marches. 

354
00:48:04,967 --> 00:48:14,032
And next to them the SS and kapos who counted and counted and couldn't stop counting, counting us. 

355
00:48:14,033 --> 00:48:21,199
And before evening, before returning, we lined up at the roll-call grounds between the blocks. 

356
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:37,932
and when the block leader arrived before the...block eldest, the block eldest gave the block eldest gave the order "caps off!" 

357
00:48:37,933 --> 00:48:39,732
So. We took off our caps. 

358
00:48:39,733 --> 00:48:43,032
Those were idiotic things. 

359
00:48:43,033 --> 00:49:01,966
And, and when you returned from the camp and arrived in the block...and if the bed had not been made very well, you were beaten. 

360
00:49:01,967 --> 00:49:19,399
And it was...uh...in Fünfteichen there was a kind of table that held the feet and someone put their head in and he was given 25 beatings. 

361
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:38,032
And if someone was beaten and started to scream...the....breathing stopped (he imitates the sound) and he couldn't scream anymore. 

362
00:49:38,033 --> 00:49:51,699
And one time it happened to me, when...why did they hit us -- because we didn't have enough strength to work very well. 

363
00:49:51,700 --> 00:50:11,032
Uh, because we were exhausted, we were uh...they recorded our number and, and beat us in the camp. 

364
00:50:11,033 --> 00:50:20,332
And yes, these long distances and the cold in our clothing that were very, very...

365
00:50:20,333 --> 00:50:27,266
We were clothed in pyjamas, very thin things.

366
00:50:27,267 --> 00:50:38,366
And, and, to protect ourselves from the cold...and since we were at the building site, we were able to find cement sacks and other things.

367
00:50:38,367 --> 00:50:51,999
And, and when..we hid them under our clothes, and and when they discovered it, uh then they were beaten to death. 

368
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,899
That is how it was. 

369
00:50:54,900 --> 00:51:00,332
IV2: And how did you come from Fa..uh Fünfteichen to Flossenbürg?

370
00:51:00,333 --> 00:51:03,899
Could you speak about your time in Flossenbürg?

371
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:07,232
ShS: After that, after that uh after that..

372
00:51:07,233 --> 00:51:32,832
(he clears his throat) Since we were dependent on Gross-Rossen, uh I think that the Soviets were slowly approaching, they evacuated the people onto the streets who were still of value and able to work.

373
00:51:32,833 --> 00:51:36,399
And that was my first death march. 

374
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:41,466
We walked through snow.

375
00:51:41,467 --> 00:52:02,866
And, and whenever someone couldn't continue, someone...an SS man shot him in the neck. 

376
00:52:02,867 --> 00:52:08,266
And he was left on the road. 

377
00:52:08,267 --> 00:52:21,332
And arrived...so we arrived in Gross-Rosen, and there were many people in Gross-Rosen. 

378
00:52:21,333 --> 00:52:25,199
There was no room in the barracks.

379
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:37,832
And we uh, our group, we were Russians, Poles, Czechs...because Fünfteichen, that was a very big, a very big camp. 

380
00:52:37,833 --> 00:52:40,999
And we were housed in a cave. 

381
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:45,099
And there was not room for everyone in this cave. 

382
00:52:45,100 --> 00:52:48,132
And so the kapo put one on top of the other. 

383
00:52:48,133 --> 00:52:51,499
With beatings. 

384
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:59,299
And the kapo hit me so hard that he broke my collar bone.

385
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:02,732
And so I went on.

386
00:53:02,733 --> 00:53:07,332
And, and during the night we slept on top of each other. 

387
00:53:07,333 --> 00:53:11,466
The dirt came out everywhere.

388
00:53:11,467 --> 00:53:15,032
And in, in Gross-Rosen it happened to me too. 

389
00:53:15,033 --> 00:53:22,532
In Gross-Rosen it just went on, life just went on, there were hanging ceremonies. 

390
00:53:22,533 --> 00:53:24,666
People who were punished. 

391
00:53:24,667 --> 00:53:36,766
But for the ceremony to be complete, uh the scaffoldings had to be full. 

392
00:53:36,767 --> 00:53:53,866
And I, I came from where I had washed myself a bit -- I always washed myself because the people who didn't wash, those were the ones who gave up.  

393
00:53:53,867 --> 00:53:57,466
And I always wanted to live, always. 

394
00:53:57,467 --> 00:54:00,599
I had a treasure inside me. 

395
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,866
A huge treasure, that was my parents' love. 

396
00:54:05,867 --> 00:54:17,732
I...they gave me this will...that I always thought that I would live. 

397
00:54:17,733 --> 00:54:21,432
And, and there, that was the end. 

398
00:54:21,433 --> 00:54:33,632
And the kapo grabbed me and tied my hands behind my back to complete the hanging ceremony. 

399
00:54:33,633 --> 00:54:37,932
And, and fear is something terrible. 

400
00:54:37,933 --> 00:54:40,899
That is not a normal fear. 

401
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:48,432
It turns your bowels inside out. 

402
00:54:48,433 --> 00:54:58,532
And, and, I...one can't hold it back uh... the diarrhea ran.

403
00:54:58,533 --> 00:55:06,266
And..but at the same time, when I..it is over, I die, I know it, it is over uh I said to myself: 

404
00:55:06,267 --> 00:55:15,099
I don't know the prayers, the, the, the from Aharon Diamant, that I saw in Szczackowa when he was hanged. 

405
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:17,899
I couldn't speak this prayer. 

406
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:28,066
Those are things...my,, my, my clothes were dirtied from the diarrhea. 

407
00:55:28,067 --> 00:55:38,299
And the thought that I, that I was going to die without prayer. 

408
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:44,232
But as I cameup to the scaffolding, the SS man said to him: 

409
00:55:44,233 --> 00:55:47,266
Uh we have enough!"

410
00:55:47,267 --> 00:55:51,899
And all the ropes were occupied. 

411
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:58,832
And instead of an actor I was a spectator. 

412
00:55:58,833 --> 00:56:02,366
And very quickly. 

413
00:56:02,367 --> 00:56:06,166
Ah, yes, another episode, uh...

414
00:56:06,167 --> 00:56:09,999
I met someone from my city. 

415
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,432
Uh uh a person that was looking for me. 

416
00:56:14,433 --> 00:56:20,066
Because he uh, he sensed that he couldn't go on. 

417
00:56:20,067 --> 00:56:23,666
And he gave me the soup. 

418
00:56:23,667 --> 00:56:25,232
His soup. 

419
00:56:25,233 --> 00:56:33,866
But I say he gave me his soup, and and no one understands what that means. The soup. 

420
00:56:33,867 --> 00:56:41,732
He gave me the chance to live a bit longer. 

421
00:56:41,733 --> 00:56:46,066
And i want to state his name: Janek Spierer. 

422
00:56:46,067 --> 00:56:50,066
Every time. Janek Spierer, that was...

423
00:56:50,067 --> 00:56:55,232
And the one in Szczakowa, who was hanged in front of me, that was Aharon Diamant. 

424
00:56:55,233 --> 00:56:58,066
The others, I don't know. 

425
00:56:58,067 --> 00:57:05,599
After that the evacuation began, from Gross-Rosen. 

426
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:09,432
They put us on a train. 

427
00:57:09,433 --> 00:57:14,799
And uh open. 

428
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:22,066
And the cold...in the cold. 

429
00:57:22,067 --> 00:57:24,499
The train runs slowly, makes stop. 

430
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:29,299
They gave us something to eat. 

431
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:33,999
There was nothing to drink, there was a bit of snow. 

432
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,066
We licked the snow a bit. 

433
00:57:36,067 --> 00:57:40,632
And I don't know how long we were traveling. 

434
00:57:40,633 --> 00:57:50,266
But I know that I uh, that I drank my own urine. 

435
00:57:50,267 --> 00:57:53,832
The thirst...the thirst was immense. 

436
00:57:53,833 --> 00:58:06,766
And upon arrival in, in Flossenbürg a part of the...a part of the train was still alive. 

437
00:58:06,767 --> 00:58:11,432
And I was among them, with Maniek. 

438
00:58:11,433 --> 00:58:26,766
Maniek Selinger, a distant relative, who kept an eye on me a bit, kept an eye on me a bit, helped me a bit. 

439
00:58:26,767 --> 00:58:30,632
And I was with him until the end. 

440
00:58:30,633 --> 00:58:41,699
And upon arrival 

441
00:58:41,700 --> 00:58:44,366
I thought it was very close. 

442
00:58:44,367 --> 00:58:50,632
I even thought uh that the train brought us into the camp. 

443
00:58:50,633 --> 00:59:09,166
And they took our clothes away uh because we stank and the SS was always afraid of contagious diseases. 

444
00:59:09,167 --> 00:59:13,199
And they took the clothes we had away from us. 

445
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:18,232
And they put us in a bath. 

446
00:59:18,233 --> 00:59:19,966
And that was a miracle. 

447
00:59:19,967 --> 00:59:26,832
It was...they thawed us. 

448
00:59:26,833 --> 00:59:38,632
And I remember that we were given new, not new, but different prisoner clothing. 

449
00:59:38,633 --> 00:59:42,499
And with a new number. 

450
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:50,499
And in F..and in Gross-Rosen, Fünfteichen, I had a number that I can't remember.

451
00:59:50,500 --> 00:59:53,732
But, but I had a yellow triangle. 

452
00:59:53,733 --> 01:00:01,666
Whereas in Flossenbürg I was given a red triangle with a "P". 

453
01:00:01,667 --> 01:00:10,832
Poli...uh..polisch uh political

454
01:00:10,833 --> 01:00:14,866
prisoner I guess. 

455
01:00:14,867 --> 01:00:25,499
And we were put in the quarantine in Flossenbürg.

456
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:28,566
in the quarantine. 

457
01:00:28,567 --> 01:00:38,966
And the crematorium, the crematorium was next to it. 

458
01:00:38,967 --> 01:00:43,932
Where, where I breathed in that smell.

459
01:00:43,933 --> 01:00:57,799
And incidentally, this time when I went to the site of the crematorium, I know that there was no smell - I know it, I know it. 

460
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:05,132
but I had the feeling of smelling this smell that suffocated me. 

461
01:01:05,133 --> 01:01:08,932
there the day before yesterday. 

462
01:01:08,933 --> 01:01:11,366
(IV1 clears throat)

463
01:01:11,367 --> 01:01:20,199
ShS: OK. We were in the quarantine in Flossenbürg for a while. 

464
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:31,932
Then we were housed in a block from where I could determine exactly where it was. 

465
01:01:31,933 --> 01:01:37,766
It was the first block beyond the kitchen. 

466
01:01:37,767 --> 01:01:51,099
And Sonja, uh we went there with Sonja and located.. I could locate the site exactly. 

467
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:59,099
I went partway up the stairs that I went up everyday.  

468
01:01:59,100 --> 01:02:02,932
And...at that time, when I was there.

469
01:02:02,933 --> 01:02:13,132
And like uh, Gross-Rosen, Flossenbürg was also overcrowded with people.  

470
01:02:13,133 --> 01:02:22,099
We were uh squeezed together in the beds like sardines, one on top of the other. 

471
01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:49,666
And at night, when we were very poorly nourished, debilitated from the death marches and from hunger and from the beatings that we got from the kapos and SS alike.

472
01:02:49,667 --> 01:02:51,832
Just so, separate from punishment. 

473
01:02:51,833 --> 01:03:06,432
Uh for example an SS comes to you and says in friendly way: 

474
01:03:06,433 --> 01:03:08,466
"How old are you?"

475
01:03:08,467 --> 01:03:11,266
So I say: "I am 15 years old." 

476
01:03:11,267 --> 01:03:13,732
"15 years is long enough to have lived!" 

477
01:03:13,733 --> 01:03:15,966
And begins hitting.

478
01:03:15,967 --> 01:03:25,732
That is...and the kapos who practiced beating with their fists and elbows at the same time. 

479
01:03:25,733 --> 01:03:32,466
They just took any prisoner and trained. 

480
01:03:32,467 --> 01:03:36,432
Or, or, whatever. 

481
01:03:36,433 --> 01:03:48,866
Took a prisoner and dunked his head in a bucket of water and he drowned in this water bucket. 

482
01:03:48,867 --> 01:04:06,232
And, and, and the SS in Fünfteichen they practiced aiming by putting empty bottles on the heads of prisoners and aiming. 

483
01:04:06,233 --> 01:04:08,099
And sometimes they missed. 

484
01:04:08,100 --> 01:04:10,499
That didn't count. 

485
01:04:10,500 --> 01:04:22,366
In anycase at that time it was much harder for us Jews because...and also for the Russians. 

486
01:04:22,367 --> 01:04:32,532
Because we didn't get letters or packages. 

487
01:04:32,533 --> 01:04:38,532
The Poles received packages, the Czechs received packages and certainly the Germans too. 

488
01:04:38,533 --> 01:04:49,032
And, and, and, we were there, we no longer had any family, we didn't have anything anymore. 

489
01:04:49,033 --> 01:04:53,666
We already knew that our families had been exterminated. 

490
01:04:53,667 --> 01:04:56,832
We knew...it was...

491
01:04:56,833 --> 01:05:14,032
And we already knew that in Fünfteichen, uh in '44, that the Jews from Hungary were brought...were all exterminated.  

492
01:05:14,033 --> 01:05:20,366
And that the gas chambers in Auschwitz were not enough. 

493
01:05:20,367 --> 01:05:25,166
They threw the children directly into the fire. 

494
01:05:25,167 --> 01:05:38,332
And after the war I learned from my cousin that uh, when the train from Krakow arrived in Auschwitz with her nieces

495
01:05:38,333 --> 01:05:50,332
and one of the nieces was crying, an officer, an SS dressed in black tore the child away and kicked her head, in front of the parents. 

496
01:05:50,333 --> 01:05:56,466
And they were definitely before the gas chambers but uh.. 

497
01:05:56,467 --> 01:06:10,866
And, and I also had a friend, the poet, uh, the poet, Bruno Durocher, who was in Mauthausen-Gusen.

498
01:06:10,867 --> 01:06:25,866
And he told me that there was a small commando where the camp commandant fed his dog with the ...he tied the prisoners up and fed his dog the genitals of the prisoners.  

499
01:06:25,867 --> 01:06:29,666
You see, there were no limits. 

500
01:06:29,667 --> 01:06:33,232
Sadism knows no limits. 

501
01:06:33,233 --> 01:06:39,066
Oh yes, he also told me something that got me thinking. 

502
01:06:39,067 --> 01:06:57,032
That a man, a young man, a student of philosophy who came from Berlin, no doubt someone who was protected so that he didn't have to go to the front. 

503
01:06:57,033 --> 01:07:02,166
A young SS man who came to Mauthausen-Gusen. 

504
01:07:02,167 --> 01:07:09,799
And Bruno Durocher had direct contact with this SS man because he was in charge of the coal.

505
01:07:09,800 --> 01:07:17,399
And he said to him: How can people behave like this towards other people 

506
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:24,132
And six weeks, a month, six weeks later he murdered just like the others. 

507
01:07:24,133 --> 01:07:33,466
That means, humans are fragile, humans have to be monitored. 

508
01:07:33,467 --> 01:07:40,866
IV2: Mr. Selinger, to come back to Flossenbürg and take a look at the rest of your life...

509
01:07:40,867 --> 01:07:41,166
ShS: Ah, yes.

510
01:07:41,167 --> 01:07:42,366
IV2: Couild you tell us how...?

511
01:07:42,367 --> 01:07:48,766
ShS: From Flossenbürg, in the night of Flossenbürg, when someone turned black.

512
01:07:48,767 --> 01:07:58,566
They didn't turn black from the cold in the night because there wasns't enough space in the beds. 

513
01:07:58,567 --> 01:08:01,132
He was thrown on the floor. 

514
01:08:01,133 --> 01:08:09,932
So all night long one heard "bumm", a corpse, someone who had died, they threw him down.

515
01:08:09,933 --> 01:08:17,099
This smell "brumm", which haunts me in my nightmares.

516
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:19,832
IV2: How long were you in Flossenbürg?

517
01:08:19,833 --> 01:08:21,499
And where did you go after that?

518
01:08:21,500 --> 01:08:26,466
RS (his wife): Schlomo. The view. The beauty. 

519
01:08:26,467 --> 01:08:34,166
ShS. Ah yes. Flossenbürg, that was an unusual place. 

520
01:08:34,167 --> 01:08:38,799
Beautiful. The landscape all around. 

521
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,299
And that was also true in Gross-Rosen. 

522
01:08:42,300 --> 01:08:45,032
That was something that affected me deeply. 

523
01:08:45,033 --> 01:08:46,932
I endured..I hated this beauty. 

524
01:08:46,933 --> 01:09:06,299
This beauty...the filth, the torture, the vermin that ate us up, the hunger that emptied us out, that was my life. 

525
01:09:06,300 --> 01:09:11,999
But the beauty, I could not bear it. 

526
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:17,032
It was an insult for, for..

527
01:09:17,033 --> 01:09:21,866
That beauty continued to exist.

528
01:09:21,867 --> 01:09:35,032
And it was the same in the night when I took the buc..when I went out with the urine container to.. 

529
01:09:35,033 --> 01:09:41,999
Because we urinated in the night...The prisoners went out, they urinated...they were not allowed to go out.

530
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,599
And we...and it filled up very very quickly.

531
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:47,266
And there were people who had to go out. 

532
01:09:47,267 --> 01:10:02,532
I went out to dump out the urine and I raised my head and there was the moon and there were the stars. 

533
01:10:02,533 --> 01:10:04,266
That was beauty. 

534
01:10:04,267 --> 01:10:10,566
And it was something that was unbearable. 

535
01:10:10,567 --> 01:10:14,832
It was...I couldn't bear it. 

536
01:10:14,833 --> 01:10:23,332
Perhaps because I.. I had no artistic inclination in my childhood. 

537
01:10:23,333 --> 01:10:33,332
But perhaps I had somewhere the sensibility which led me later to become a sculptor. 

538
01:10:33,333 --> 01:10:36,166
And illustrator. 

539
01:10:36,167 --> 01:10:44,266
The beauty, the beauty was unbearable. 

540
01:10:44,267 --> 01:10:54,366
And only after the war, when I arrived in Palestine with an illegal boat.

541
01:10:54,367 --> 01:11:09,766
and, and I arrived in a kibbuz on the bank of the Dead Sea, where we washed the earth, since there was 17% earth..salt there. 

542
01:11:09,767 --> 01:11:21,599
And there was a woman, a wonderful woman, who led me back to life and to poetry. 

543
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:31,566
And helped me to raise my eyes and to see the beauty of the desert of Judea.

544
01:11:31,567 --> 01:11:37,132
Then I was born, reborn in the desert of Judea. 

545
01:11:37,133 --> 01:11:39,532
Fine,, I'll return now to FLossenbürg. 

546
01:11:39,533 --> 01:11:52,399
We were sent from Flossenbürg in a commando to Dresden. Dresden had already been destroyed. 

547
01:11:52,400 --> 01:12:00,032
And I worked with a master, repairing railroad tracks. 

548
01:12:00,033 --> 01:12:08,066
And I recall that I found a head of cabbage there that was already a bit floppy. 

549
01:12:08,067 --> 01:12:11,999
And, and and I ate it. 

550
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:19,266
It was perhaps not poisonous. 

551
01:12:19,267 --> 01:12:26,799
And a bit of time passed, we worked there. 

552
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:30,566
A few of us prisoners...pardon?

553
01:12:30,567 --> 01:12:31,766
RS: The potatoes.

554
01:12:31,767 --> 01:12:33,432
Shs. Oh, yes. 

555
01:12:33,433 --> 01:12:40,199
There were people who peeled potatoes for the SS. 

556
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:46,966
I went passed, snatched them and ate the raw potato.

557
01:12:46,967 --> 01:13:01,766
And I knew, had the intuition uh, knew which weed to pluck, which I ate and the weed which I didn't touch.  

558
01:13:01,767 --> 01:13:06,366
An insect, which I took and ate without hesitating. 

559
01:13:06,367 --> 01:13:08,499
And others that I didn't touch. 

560
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:13,332
I became a small animal. 

561
01:13:13,333 --> 01:13:20,866
And there in Dresden the front was slowly coming closer. 

562
01:13:20,867 --> 01:13:28,899
And we go, we carry, we went away on the second death march. 

563
01:13:28,900 --> 01:13:33,166
And we walked along small mountain trails. 

564
01:13:33,167 --> 01:13:42,366
And if someone could not go on, he was not killed there. 

565
01:13:42,367 --> 01:13:46,699
A cord was wrapped around his neck and he was pulled a bit. 

566
01:13:46,700 --> 01:13:48,932
And thrown to the side. 

567
01:13:48,933 --> 01:13:52,232
And it went on like that. 

568
01:13:52,233 --> 01:13:55,999
And, yes, a personal episode. 

569
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:58,599
Also a lesson. 

570
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,232
Uh, we went there.

571
01:14:01,233 --> 01:14:02,932
It was already spring. 

572
01:14:02,933 --> 01:14:09,899
It was not as hard as my first death march in the middle of winter. 

573
01:14:09,900 --> 01:14:19,766
And an SS bit into an apple and threw it away. 

574
01:14:19,767 --> 01:14:26,666
Intuitively I thought to pounce on it. 

575
01:14:26,667 --> 01:14:30,232
And a man walked next to me. 

576
01:14:30,233 --> 01:14:38,432
Uh, he.. was a Hungarian rabbi, I don't know who. 

577
01:14:38,433 --> 01:14:41,332
I can't recall his face. 

578
01:14:41,333 --> 01:14:44,232
but I remember his eyes well. 

579
01:14:44,233 --> 01:14:46,266
Still today he looks at me. 

580
01:14:46,267 --> 01:14:50,432
He grabs me and I wanted to tear myself away so that I..

581
01:14:50,433 --> 01:14:54,799
And he still had the strength to slap me.

582
01:14:54,800 --> 01:15:01,532
And he said: "Look, this is what they have turned us into.

583
01:15:01,533 --> 01:15:06,066
Like dogs that pounce on a bone.

584
01:15:06,067 --> 01:15:08,032
You, you will live.

585
01:15:08,033 --> 01:15:11,999
But do not touch that."

586
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:15,066
Another lesson. 

587
01:15:15,067 --> 01:15:19,266
I was, I was a child. 

588
01:15:19,267 --> 01:15:20,999
I knew nothing. 

589
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:22,999
And that had an affect on my life. 

590
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:28,099
That was a lesson about dignity. 

591
01:15:28,100 --> 01:15:35,999
And so we arrived in Leitmeritz. 

592
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,032
Leitmeritz, a very large camp. 

593
01:15:39,033 --> 01:15:53,232
And my red triangle protected me from the special treatment. 

594
01:15:53,233 --> 01:16:00,399
But I was very, very weak. 

595
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:06,932
And I recall someone said to me: 

596
01:16:06,933 --> 01:16:12,232
"Did you know they are demanding that the Jews gather together. 

597
01:16:12,233 --> 01:16:15,866
They are going to get bread."

598
01:16:15,867 --> 01:16:26,099
When I heard the word bread, I went there. 

599
01:16:26,100 --> 01:16:34,266
And they brought us to Terezin. 

600
01:16:34,267 --> 01:16:38,299
But beforehand I would like to return to the quarantine. 

601
01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:48,299
In the quarantine there was a Russian, no it was a Usbek.

602
01:16:48,300 --> 01:16:59,699
And I, in my childhood, I remember that I had read a book called "Taschkent, the city of bread." 

603
01:16:59,700 --> 01:17:04,732
So I moved closer to this man so that he could tell me about Taschkent. 

604
01:17:04,733 --> 01:17:10,666
Because to me he was.. he represented bread. 

605
01:17:10,667 --> 01:17:14,666
IV2: Could you talk about the liberation in Theresienstadt?

606
01:17:14,667 --> 01:17:20,766
ShS: And in Terezin, gut Terezin, that was the end of the war. 

607
01:17:20,767 --> 01:17:31,066
And in Terezin, I was finished. They brought me to, brought me to the hospital of Terezin. 

608
01:17:31,067 --> 01:17:37,866
And I don't know why, they thought I was dead. 

609
01:17:37,867 --> 01:17:41,099
And they put me with the dead. 

610
01:17:41,100 --> 01:17:45,466
But the Red Army was already there. 

611
01:17:45,467 --> 01:17:52,766
And a Soviet officer came closer.

612
01:17:52,767 --> 01:17:55,799
He saw that I was not really dead. 

613
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:57,899
And he pulled me out of there. 

614
01:17:57,900 --> 01:18:00,799
And he brought me to the military hospital. 

615
01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:02,599
I am sure that he did not have the right to do that. 

616
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:10,932
Since left and right there were injured, war injured.

617
01:18:10,933 --> 01:18:16,699
I was in the field lazarette. 

618
01:18:16,700 --> 01:18:20,666
And the nurses, they were female soldiers. 

619
01:18:20,667 --> 01:18:33,166
And the director of the hospital came by personally in intervals and gave me two, three spoonfuls of soup. 

620
01:18:33,167 --> 01:18:36,966
He slowly brought life back to me. 

621
01:18:36,967 --> 01:18:45,066
He didn't want me to die, from eating. 

622
01:18:45,067 --> 01:18:51,832
I gained my strength back a bit, a bit. 

623
01:18:51,833 --> 01:19:06,966
After that uh Maniek Sel.. Selinger, he called me.. they let me go to the fence of the hospital. 

624
01:19:06,967 --> 01:19:10,732
And he said to me: "You know what. We are going away to Prague."

625
01:19:10,733 --> 01:19:19,132
And, and I brought myself to safety, I don't know why, I went with him, I brought myself to safety with him. 

626
01:19:19,133 --> 01:19:23,566
And I went with him to Prague.

627
01:19:23,567 --> 01:19:27,732
In Prague.. to me Prague was a city of freedom.  

628
01:19:27,733 --> 01:19:37,999
And then the former prisoners could ride the trams for free. 

629
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:39,466
RS: Shlomo, the amnesia. 

630
01:19:39,467 --> 01:19:41,399
ShS: And.. oh yes. 

631
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:47,566
IV1: Perhaps we could very, very, very, really that he says five sentences about the amnesia and then we simply must stop. 

632
01:19:47,567 --> 01:19:51,399
IV2: The problem is that we don't have much time left. 

633
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:56,432
So if you want to say a few sentences about the amnesia, but otherwise..

634
01:19:56,433 --> 01:20:00,232
ShS: I left the hospital and suffered from amnesia for 7 years. 

635
01:20:00,233 --> 01:20:13,832
Ruthy had already gone with me at the end of my amnesia to ask someone about my life.  

636
01:20:13,833 --> 01:20:18,632
And she noted - did she note or did he?

637
01:20:18,633 --> 01:20:19,499
RS: He had written down the names of the camps. 

638
01:20:19,500 --> 01:20:24,199
ShS: He had written down on a piece of paper the names of the camps where I had been. 

639
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:25,599
How I was.

640
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:27,032
Where I came from. 

641
01:20:27,033 --> 01:20:32,466
And, and, I would like to tell a small episode from Prague. 

642
01:20:32,467 --> 01:20:44,866
And in the tram I saw a woman with children across from her. 

643
01:20:44,867 --> 01:20:48,899
And I hadn't seen children for three and a half years. 

644
01:20:48,900 --> 01:20:51,532
I was hypnotized by the child. 

645
01:20:51,533 --> 01:20:53,766
Completely hypnotized. 

646
01:20:53,767 --> 01:21:03,832
And, and the woman got off the tram, and I began to follow her. 

647
01:21:03,833 --> 01:21:07,299
And she walked faster and I did too. 

648
01:21:07,300 --> 01:21:09,666
And then she started to run. 

649
01:21:09,667 --> 01:21:15,732
And, and I realized that she was afraid of me. 

650
01:21:15,733 --> 01:21:20,832
In the condition that I was in, I was a scarecrow. 

651
01:21:20,833 --> 01:21:35,966
I understood, and I think that I... the first time after three years, during which I had not cried, I cried deeply. 

652
01:21:35,967 --> 01:21:38,066
I cried.

653
01:21:38,067 --> 01:21:43,832
I didn't know that someone could be scared of me. 

654
01:21:43,833 --> 01:21:54,099
And, and maybe I wasn't human anymore. 

655
01:21:54,100 --> 01:21:58,632
IV1: Ok. I suggest we make a cut here. 

656
01:21:58,633 --> 01:22:02,499
That is somehow fitting with the last sentence. 

657
01:22:02,500 --> 01:22:07,867
And we would like to thank you. I am very sorry that we cannot continue.