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CM: Camera's rolling. 

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IV: 1: Today is Friday, April 25, we are in Weiden in the Upper Palatinate, in Hotel Admira and are conducting an interview today with Helga Kinsky, who now lives in Vienna. 

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She was born on May 28, 1930. 

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Miss Kinksy, could you tell me a little about your childhood, youth and family so that we have a sense of your background. 

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HK: Well, as you stated, I was born in Vienna. 

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Uh, my father was a war invalid from the First World War. 

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He only had one leg. 

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Uh, and my parents married in a temple in 1928. 

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In the 15th district. 

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My father had a large concert cafe in the 15th district that many well-known people frequented such as Leah Tauber and many others. 

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Yes, and,not much later Hitler came, and in 1938 I was not allowed to go school.  

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And then, like every year, I spent a part of my holiday with my grandmother and aunt and their children in Kyjov, called Gaya in German, in southern Moravia. 

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Yes, and afterwards, my father thought it couldn't last long. 

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I simply had to go to a German school. 

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So I went to live with strangers, in a strange family and sent to the German school. 

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But I cried so much that I was brought back to my aunt and uncle. 

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And then I had to go to a Czech school, but I couldn't speak Czech, so I had to repeat a grade. 

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That was only a year and a half of school and then it was the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and again I wasn't allowed to go to school.  

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Well, I recall, I went to Brünn again, to the Jewish school but I was only there for a few months. 

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Because then there was the ban on Jews traveling with trains and public transporation. 

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And when I heard this, I quickly got permission, packed my suitcase and surprised my family with my arrival {laughing}. 

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Without sending anyone a message. 

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And then I lived for a few years in Kyjov without school, no school at all. 

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Romped around with other children my age. 

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Until we were disposed to Theresienstadt in an Zlín transport, that is the Bat'a city.

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And I arrived in Theresienstadt, uh 23rd, I think it was January 23, 1943. 

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IV: That means, I'll just ask a few things 

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HK: Yes.

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IV: Well, others, they need a half hour for this story {laughing}. You are fast. 

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So when you came to Theresienstadt, you were almost 13. 

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HK: Twelve and a half, two...

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IV: Just about, approximately. 

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HK: Yes. 

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IV: And so in the time before this, you described a situation which early on led to your separation from your family, as a result of this persecution.

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HK: Yes.

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IV: How did you experience this as a child, what was happening, that you had to go away, and couldn't really go to school anywhere. 

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HK: Yes, I did indeed realize this...

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But since I was so happy with my family in Gaya, it didn't really bother me, of course I worried about my father. 

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And I always wanted him to come to the Protectorate too, which he did manage to do. 

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Late '41 but my mother had gone to England on a domestic workers visa in March 1939 . 

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IV: So she had already gone into exile {unclear}?

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HK: Yes, I basically didn't have a mother for eight years, I didn't see her again until '46. 

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IV: Uh, so what was happening, this threat from the leaders in the Third Reich, was it spoken about at home? 

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Or could you, you said "I was a child, I could romp around." 

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Or was it more that you were not that aware of the approaching danger...?

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HK: I think I didn't understand the danger approaching. 

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But I always felt that when I was with my family I was safe. 

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That nothing can happen to me as long as I am with them.

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IV: And I know about the discrimination, either from other classmates or other people?

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So many have said that they noticed early on that people were saying things when they passed, that...

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HK: No, no, that was only once for a very short time in Vienna when a gendarme or a policeman, whatever he was, who lived in our house took me by the hand and said:

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"Come, Helga, we are going home," so that was just once. 

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Of course bombs were planted in the coffeehouse, there was that. 

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Um, my mother says it was in  '36, I say '34,  well I am not exactly sure, {laughing}, it was supposed to blow up the building but was planted badly. 

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So only the windows burst all around. 

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So there was that.  

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That the cafe was boycotted. 

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But I didn't think about the consequences. 

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Back then I was little, I was terribly startled by the noise.

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And once a soot bomb went off in the area where people hung up their clothes in the coffeehouse so the clothes turned black and were ruined. 

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Of course few people dared to come to our coffeehouse.

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IV: Was your home, your family, was it a traditional, religious Jewish family or was it more cosmopolitan, or how was it?

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HK: It was a cosmopolitan, not a religious family because my parents had divorced.  

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So no real household was being kept {laughing}.

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Because my father had to be downstairs in the coffeehouse. 

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Until late at night, until 3 o'clock in the morning. 

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IV: You began to say, before I interrupted you, "and then we came to Theresienstadt" 

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How did that take place, how did you experience it?

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You said you felt protected by your family

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What happened then?

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HK: Well, we wrere brought to the attic of the Hamburg barracks and it was terrible, the first impression. 

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But someone, a cousin, was there too. 

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And she took me away from the attic, so that I could play with children. 

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So, well, I was very well looked after. 

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And then I was brought to a home for girls. 

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L 410 for Czech girls in room 28. 

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In the first two months I had difficulties integrating there, but as one writes {laughing} after 3 months I was totally integrated into this home. 

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Because some of these children knew each other from Prague.

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IV: So the living conditions, also beforehand, I mean it was war, there was hardship already. 

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Or what did you, what were you allowed to take with you to Theresienstadt?

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Well, I mean, fact is, I think most people today can't really imagine: you are sitting at home and {unclear}

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HK: Uh...

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IV: {unclear} There must have been orders to go on a transport or a deportation. 

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HK: We knew that we were going on a transport and I remember, I think we had started to pack in summer '43. 

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What can you fit into your luggage when you are only allowed to take 50 kilos with you. 

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Uh, well, my aunt baked cookies because they keep for a long time. 

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But I have to say, in Theresienstadt I didn't find any cookies that we had baked {laughing}

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Preparations were made. 

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For instance, all the bed linens were dyed blue. 

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So that the dirt wouldn't show as quickly as on white linens. 

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So these things, I knew they were being prepared.  

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IV: And was there a sense of what was meant by Theresienstadt.

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HK: Well, we didn't know whether we were going to Theresienstadt or to the east. 

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They said we are being transported to the east, but we didn't know what was waiting for us in the east. 

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IV: So you said that you were then put in a home for girls. 

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What were the social and living conditions like in '43 when you arrived there?

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HK: Yes, we were 28 or 30 girls on about 28 square meters with three-level bunk beds. 

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We had a crudely constructed table.

99
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And two crude benches, but not everyone had room there.  

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Uh, yes, between the rooms we had constructed something with a curtain where we could hang coats and clothes. 

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But there was never enough room for 30 girls. 

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Behind our heads there was a small storage area where we could store the suitcases that we had brought with us to Theresienstadt.

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We had 3 caretakers, ours was a pianist and music teacher and two younger women helped her. 

104
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Yes, and...

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IV: Your daily life,what was your daily routine like?

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HK: Well, we had to wake up very early, it was strictly organized, how we aired out {laughing}. After all we only had the two windows. 

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For up to 30 girls. 

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And someone had to volunteer to go get the pot with the acorn coffee.

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And if we had a piece of bread then we ate that with it. 

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And class was held secretly. 

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IV: Right in the home?

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Hk: Yes, right in the home, yes. 

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IV: And the rest of your family, as a girl you were {unclear} in the girls' home. 

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HG: Uh, we were lucky at first that the rest of the famly, except for one uncle, everyone who lived together, they all stayed in Theresienstadt. 

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And so I wasn't scared because if my father was sick, then my aunt visited me. 

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So there was still a degree of cohesion.

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IV: And it was possible to visit each other?

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HK: That was possible, if there wasn't a curfew. 

119
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Of course if somebody escaped from Theresienstadt the punishment was usually a month-long curfew. 

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That meant lIghts off.

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IV: For everyone?

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HK: For everyone. Lights off at a certain time, no recreational activities and so. 

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IV: And you mentioned, you began to keep a diary at some point, didn't you?

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HK: Uh, on the last day before we went away, when the apartment was already empty, my father handed me a notebook. 

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And said: "Keep a diary now."

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So I began to...had two of these notebooks. I had the third one made into a book in Theresienstadt, for bread. 

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But unfortunately it got lost. 

128
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And, yes, I think I stopped writing when the many transports began in fall '44. 

129
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It happened so quickly, that all my friends and teachers disappeared and people that I knew and loved. 

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I didn't have the time or peace of mind to write. 

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IV: The living conditions in Theresienstadt, they continued to worsen. 

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How did you, how was that, how did you experience that?

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You said that many people were leaving on transports. 

134
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How did your everyday life, .... in the beginning it sounds like, secret school, waking up, everything regulated. How did that change?

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HK: Well, there were always transports, we were always saying goodbye to some girls, or to 3 or 4. 

136
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And we were very sad. 

137
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But like children are, the empty beds were filled up with other children and we quickly got accustomed to them. 

138
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Uh, we looked for a new friend to lie next to, since there wasn't a lot of space to move around in the room. 

139
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Yes, but in September, after the Red Cross and after "The Führer schenkt" film, "der Führer schenkt uns eine Stadt" that was all over.  

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And then there was one transport after the next. 

141
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And then there wasn't time to take a deep breath. 

142
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IV: Can you remember this film or the making of the film and how it came about?

143
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Can you talk a bit about it?

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HK: No, I remember it because our building was right next to the church on the main squaire and a lot played out just below the window. 

145
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And I recall how the appearance of the square was improved and the fences were removed by SS. 

146
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And that the SS moved out into a different building and the square was made available.  

147
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And then I remember about the film, uh how Kurt Gerron stood on the stairs in front of the church. 

148
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And gave the order for us to march. 

149
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We had to sing with shovels and rakes. 

150
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Walking by and then back again and again {laughing} and again.

151
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And that is {?} about 2 seconds in the film. 

152
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IV: When watching the film, one can probably see you in it {unclear}

153
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HK: I don't think so, I, I don't think so {laughing}

154
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IV: And in addition to this propaganda, many of the witnesses with whom we have spoken here, also spoke of Theresienstadt, that there was also cultural life there. 

155
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That there was a theater, a theater group that performed, that people sang. 

156
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That there were many artists there who still, somehow there was a piano, were you aware of this cultural life? 

157
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HK: Of course I participated a lot. 

158
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Because all the rehearsals were held in the basement of L410.

159
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From Rafael Schächter, for Verdi's Requiem, for Kiss by Smetana...

160
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And since our main caretaker also played accompaniment on these pieces, and operas... 

161
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As long as there wasn't an orchestra, the orchestra began when the Red Cross came, to the film, we were aware of quite of bit.

162
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And two or three children who were very talented sang in the chorus of the operas.  

163
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And then there was the big story with the Brundibar children's opera, where girls from my room sang in the main roles.

164
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And well, I don't know who gave me the tickets, but I wrote it down in my diary, to how many concerts I went and who performed {unclear} Elias from Mendelssohn, Mozart concerts, uh...

165
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The Creation, Gogol, Franz Savignon {?}, ballads, I saw all kinds of things.

166
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I took that in...like a sponge {laughing}

167
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IV: And many others were probably also in this situation {unclear}

168
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HK: Yes, not all the girls, that is why I got the tickets so easily, but there were a few.

169
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IV: Uh, to hear you talk, it all sounds kind of nice, not so terrible.

170
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Uh, does that also have to do with how you experienced it, as a child, that you experienced it differently? 

171
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HK: No, I had, I ha...

172
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IV: Or that you have gained a distance to it now...

173
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HK: Well, the memory is always there, of how Theresienstadt looked. 

174
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The old people lying on the ground, how the people starved, how they begged: "please, a top ... take the ladel from the bottom so that some pieces float up."

175
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Uh, somehow I lost myself in the music and the cultural scene. 

176
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And I knew the Czech composers and, and the Aust...VIennese concert pianists and a few university professors. 

177
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I had grown up with all that, and I was lucky that {laughing] my father saved everything edible for me and made me a thick soup.  

178
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So that I had regained all the weight loss after a few months. 

179
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But he lost 14, 15 kilos I think.

180
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But it wasn't like that. I was indeed aware that my father lived in a home for invalids in the courtyard.  

181
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Uh, there were 6 in.., war invalids there, so crowded that they didn't even had a bench or table where they could sit.  

182
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So, so it wasn't that I wasn't aware of it. 

183
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I remember in the Sudenten barracks, how potato peels were thrown onto to a pile...and how the people fought to get these potato peels, I was lucky there too. 

184
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Because we had a Christian cousin.

185
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And in the early period in Theresienstadt one could send small packages up to 2 kilos. 

186
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And she biked all over the countryside.

187
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And all the things that we had left behind, bed linens, table cloths, and other stuff, she tried to sell them for food.  

188
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IV: And then sent it to you in packages?

189
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HK: Yes, but later it was banned and we were only allowed to have one 20 kilo package a year. 

190
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And hardly anyone could fill that, not even those who lived in the village. 

191
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CM: Stop please. 

192
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IV: OK, one moment. 

193
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CM: The power went off. 

194
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IV: power went off, we have to {unclear}

195
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CM: The camera has to run, too. 

196
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CM: Yes.

197
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IV: So you just put a bit into perspective that Theresienstadt was not just a bed of roses, perhaps you could speak a bit more.

198
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HK: Yes, only old people lay on the ground, they had nothing. 

199
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They only had these poor rations and a bit was taken away from them and given to the children. 

200
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So that the children's kitchen had more. 

201
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Since the future lay with the children and they also wanted to protect the children. 

202
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They, the children's welfare, did everything to protect these children. 

203
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And of course I saw everything, that people died, had terrible diseases. 

204
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I had encephalitis, two kinds of jaundice. 

205
00:19:56,267 --> 00:20:05,799
Uh, I was in the ... room for a month with an ear infection and high fever.

206
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,999
Well, this get forgotten after being in Auschwitz, no?

207
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,332
It is the positive memories of Theresienstadt that stay.

208
00:20:16,333 --> 00:20:24,466
I don't know if you are familiar with Jehuda Bacon, the famous, uh, witness from Israel. 

209
00:20:24,467 --> 00:20:32,999
He said once in a film in which I also appeared as a witness, that if you were in Theresienstadt, you dreamed of home. 

210
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,866
And if you were in Auschwitz, you dreamed of Theresienstadt. 

211
00:20:36,867 --> 00:20:45,099
IV: Beforehand we were at the point, recapitulated the moment when more and more transports were leaving. 

212
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:44,999
Hk: Yes. 

213
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:53,466
IV: So, You were aware of this, was there any sense of where the journey was heading, also figuratively? 

214
00:20:53,467 --> 00:20:59,032
Did you know what going on a transport might mean?

215
00:20:59,033 --> 00:21:07,999
HK: I think everyone knew that it would not be better but where they were going, maybe a few in the elders' council knew.  

216
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,666
But I think most of the people in Theresienstadt did not know. 

217
00:21:13,667 --> 00:21:17,166
My father wanted to volunteer to go. 

218
00:21:17,167 --> 00:21:20,966
To go on a transport with me. 

219
00:21:20,967 --> 00:21:28,632
And my caretaker told him not to do that, that that would be the only thing we shared,

220
00:21:28,633 --> 00:21:37,999
the journey together. And Dr. Altenberg, who was in the elders' council of Jews, also discouraged him.  

221
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,966
But how many knew?  I'm sure some knew. 

222
00:21:41,967 --> 00:21:46,532
IV: How did things progress with you and your family?

223
00:21:46,533 --> 00:21:58,166
HK: Well, the first to go, I don't know in what order, but in the end only my father and I were left and I  then I left. 

224
00:21:58,167 --> 00:22:04,532
So the family had been gone for a while and I thought I was going to be with my family. 

225
00:22:04,533 --> 00:22:07,899
But that wasn't the case. 

226
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,799
IV: And where did you go and how?

227
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:23,699
HK: Well, my transport had more than 1700 people, about 200...210 young women were selected out for the work transport. 

228
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:27,966
And all the others were gassed that very same night. 

229
00:22:27,967 --> 00:22:30,766
IV: In Auschwitz. 

230
00:22:30,767 --> 00:22:32,266
HK: In Auschwitz.

231
00:22:32,267 --> 00:22:45,666
IV: I don't want to torment you, but I am also here for details, to encourage you to tell more, I don't find this, uh...

232
00:22:45,667 --> 00:22:46,599
HK: I know. 

233
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,399
IV: pleasant or anything, although I am interested. 

234
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:58,266
But, if you like you could tell a bit more in detail about what happened to you or what you can remember. 

235
00:22:58,267 --> 00:23:01,932
HK: Well, we arrived at a ramp. 

236
00:23:01,933 --> 00:23:09,599
I was with my friend Hana Pollak, who we called Handa, and my main caretaker. 

237
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:23,666
Well, there was, we were in a closed cattle car and it was very quiet and one of us climbed over the luggage in the corner to the cattle window.

238
00:23:23,667 --> 00:23:30,066
She looked out and there was nothing to see except barbed wire and searchlights.

239
00:23:30,067 --> 00:23:34,566
But a few minutes later there was a huge clamor. 

240
00:23:34,567 --> 00:23:36,666
The doors were torn open. 

241
00:23:36,667 --> 00:23:38,199
"Fast, fast, out": 

242
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:43,999
And I thought how are the old people going to jump down from this height. 

243
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:50,966
But there was not much time to think, we had to line up in rows of five. 

244
00:23:50,967 --> 00:23:54,432
We wanted to take our bread bag or something else with us. 

245
00:23:54,433 --> 00:23:58,632
Then they said: "Fast, fast, the luggage comes later." 

246
00:23:58,633 --> 00:24:02,199
And then we marched in front of an SS man. 

247
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:10,399
When were were there, it was those who went to the right who got to live, those to the left went to their death. 

248
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,232
IV: Which you of course didn't know at the time. 

249
00:24:14,233 --> 00:24:21,732
HK: No, but that I was at an outpost to hell, that I knew.

250
00:24:21,733 --> 00:24:32,732
It seemed like that because this kind of contact, we never experienced anything like this in Theresienstadt.

251
00:24:32,733 --> 00:24:34,999
IV: In this severity and {unclear}

252
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:35,566
HK: In this severity.

253
00:24:35,567 --> 00:24:36,999
IV: With this ruthlessness, yes.

254
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:43,632
HK: With how orders were given, the desolation, barbed wire and search lights. 

255
00:24:43,633 --> 00:24:53,899
And we had never had .... such close contact to the SS... walking back and forth with the...club.

256
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:59,099
We had to say our name and date of birth. 

257
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:06,166
I lined up with my caretaker. 

258
00:25:06,167 --> 00:25:11,566
She was in one of the first transports from Prague to Theresienstadt.

259
00:25:11,567 --> 00:25:16,466
And we had to line up in the order we came from Theresienstadt.

260
00:25:16,467 --> 00:25:23,966
If I had lined up in back with my transport, I don't know if I would be sitting here now. 

261
00:25:23,967 --> 00:25:37,666
I can't say when the ..., when the 200 women were selected.

262
00:25:37,667 --> 00:25:42,599
And then we were chased into a building.  

263
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,732
Where they took everything from us. 

264
00:25:45,733 --> 00:25:49,899
Shaved off all our hair, that was an awful shock. 

265
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:58,932
My friend who stood next to me had an hysterical fit. We didn't recognize ourselves suddenly. 

266
00:25:58,933 --> 00:26:07,066
And we were thrown any old clothing that didn't fit, just a big heap. 

267
00:26:07,067 --> 00:26:10,366
And were chased to a barrack. 

268
00:26:10,367 --> 00:26:17,466
IV: Your possessions were gone, you were so to speak {unclear}

269
00:26:17,467 --> 00:26:18,466
HK: We had nothing. 

270
00:26:18,467 --> 00:26:19,466
IV: Naked, no hair and then...

271
00:26:19,467 --> 00:26:22,532
HK: Naked, and then we were thrown any old clothes. 

272
00:26:22,533 --> 00:26:24,666
IV: {unclear}, ja. 

273
00:26:24,667 --> 00:26:32,799
HK: Clogs and the next morning we were chased between barbed wire. 

274
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:41,666
That is when we saw what inds of people were coming out of the barracks, it was very early, everything was gray in gray.  

275
00:26:41,667 --> 00:26:51,199
And then we got pushed into some barrack. I don't know which one. 

276
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,266
And had to go inside quickly. 

277
00:26:55,267 --> 00:27:01,632
And lie down on the bunks, again three-levels. 

278
00:27:01,633 --> 00:27:06,332
Where 4 were supposed to be, 8 of us lay. 

279
00:27:06,333 --> 00:27:10,532
Like sardines but we didn't have any mattresses, no blankets, nothing. 

280
00:27:10,533 --> 00:27:14,899
And that is where we had to stay and it was pitch dark. 

281
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:19,799
Because these were those horse barracks, just with slits above. 

282
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,066
And now and then we were pushed out to roll call. 

283
00:27:24,067 --> 00:27:30,066
There we were given some sort of acorn coffee again, stood for hours in the cold. 

284
00:27:30,067 --> 00:27:37,299
We allowed to go the drafty latrines, some kind of open latrine.

285
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:39,366
Where it was full of drafts.

286
00:27:39,367 --> 00:27:42,532
And then we were chased back. 

287
00:27:42,533 --> 00:27:44,332
But we didn't have anything to eat. 

288
00:27:44,333 --> 00:27:48,466
And none of us knew how long we were there. 

289
00:27:48,467 --> 00:27:51,432
Of course it could be researched. 

290
00:27:51,433 --> 00:27:53,199
When we arrived. 

291
00:27:53,200 --> 00:28:03,499
And when we drove to Oederan, but it felt like, someone said 4 days, another 8, the next 10, because we were all in a state of shock. 

292
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:04,999
IV: So that one didn't realize {unclear}, you didn't have to work, nothing, it was.

293
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,632
HK: No, not day and night. It was always dark. 

294
00:28:08,633 --> 00:28:12,166
No food, it was always dark. It was cold. 

295
00:28:12,167 --> 00:28:28,366
Yes, and then one...day, I think it was 5 days, we were led somewhere in a fast tempo in rows of five, were showered and bathed.   

296
00:28:28,367 --> 00:28:30,632
But that was much smaller. 

297
00:28:30,633 --> 00:28:34,532
And the, uh, clothes were taken away again. 

298
00:28:34,533 --> 00:28:38,566
And then we became somewhat better clothes. 

299
00:28:38,567 --> 00:28:45,832
And shoes that were too big for me, and knee-high socks that didn't stay, that slipped down. 

300
00:28:45,833 --> 00:28:48,766
But I had a vest, but no undergarments. 

301
00:28:48,767 --> 00:28:50,499
No one had undergarments. 

302
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:55,599
And again we stood all day in the cold but there was sunny. 

303
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,966
And in the evening we were chased into these cattle cars in the dark. 

304
00:29:01,967 --> 00:29:06,932
And we feared losing our group.

305
00:29:06,933 --> 00:29:09,932
Because there were different trains. 

306
00:29:09,933 --> 00:29:17,599
That were filled at the same time to depart as work transports. 

307
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:24,332
Uh, we were allowed to grab a piece of bread from the side quickly. 

308
00:29:24,333 --> 00:29:26,299
And some Mettwurst. 

309
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:34,432
And I considered whether I dared to take it and not lose my people in the dark. 

310
00:29:34,433 --> 00:29:36,499
And I did it {laughing}, yes. 

311
00:29:36,500 --> 00:29:41,032
IV: And that was basically the first time in days that you...

312
00:29:41,033 --> 00:29:41,632
HK: Yes {unclear}.

313
00:29:41,633 --> 00:29:42,999
IV: received real food.

314
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,399
HK: I don't know whether it agreed with me, but I was very young and could bear quite a bit. 

315
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,266
Yes, then we were on locked into a cattle car. 

316
00:29:52,267 --> 00:29:56,166
And a soldier was with us as guard. 

317
00:29:56,167 --> 00:29:58,799
There was a bucket next to him. 

318
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,799
For our needs.

319
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,532
And that is how we traveled to Oederan. 

320
00:30:04,533 --> 00:30:12,532
IV: Uh, could you tell when that was, around, which month. 

321
00:30:12,533 --> 00:30:20,166
HK: Late October, around, we arrived around October 28, October 27. 

322
00:30:20,167 --> 00:30:27,566
IV: And when you were sitting in this cattle car, you probably didn't know where it was headed. 

323
00:30:27,567 --> 00:30:26,999
HK: No...yes. 

324
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,166
IV: Just fast, fast go, however and...

325
00:30:30,167 --> 00:30:39,366
HK: Even though some of the older ones dared to uh have contact to these soldiers. 

326
00:30:39,367 --> 00:30:50,499
I, as a child, was a ...insignificant part {laughing} of the group, I wouldn't have dared and no one would have taken notice of me. 

327
00:30:50,500 --> 00:31:02,732
We were only told we were several young people, we were registered in the barracks by a female SS clerk. 

328
00:31:02,733 --> 00:31:12,899
And when we stated our age, she said. "none of you can be born after '26"

329
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:27,332
And I saw that on the list from Flossenbürg and I saw the mistake again today but a whole heap of us were younger, but that would have prevented us from getting into a work transport. 

330
00:31:27,333 --> 00:31:33,666
That's why it is written everywhere in Flossenbürg born in 1926 {laughing}

331
00:31:33,667 --> 00:31:40,999
But there were '31 among us, and '30 like me. There were lots of young people.

332
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,532
IV: And then the train departed at some point...

333
00:31:45,533 --> 00:31:53,666
HK: It departed at night. I only know that we arrived early in the morning, around 8 o'clock. 

334
00:31:53,667 --> 00:32:00,932
At the station in Oederan we marched to the camp, again in rows of five.

335
00:32:00,933 --> 00:32:05,966
That was behind the factory. 

336
00:32:05,967 --> 00:32:08,966
Uh, that was originally a twine factory. 

337
00:32:08,967 --> 00:32:11,832
Now it is the Agricola. 

338
00:32:11,833 --> 00:32:14,332
AGH or whatever it's called. 

339
00:32:14,333 --> 00:32:17,599
There was a big camp in back. 

340
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:23,132
And they had set it up for, for the workers. 

341
00:32:23,133 --> 00:32:24,466
IV: As housing?

342
00:32:24,467 --> 00:32:31,632
HK: Yes, and again there were three-level bunk beds. 

343
00:32:31,633 --> 00:32:34,599
And the mattresses were made of crepe paper. 

344
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,599
But at least they were new. 

345
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,599
And very thin blankets. 

346
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,032
And two of us had to share a bunk.

347
00:32:44,033 --> 00:32:57,966
Uh, but we were lucky that it was warm, because some ran pipes ran through, I think they brought heat to the Italians. 

348
00:32:57,967 --> 00:33:03,666
who were housed in the next house. 

349
00:33:03,667 --> 00:33:07,999
IV: And then you probably had to work?

350
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,999
HK: Yes, in a...

351
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,999
IV: {unclear} go ahead a take a sip {unclear}...

352
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:17,432
HK: In a munitions factory. 

353
00:33:17,433 --> 00:33:21,566
IV: The next day or immediately or {unclear}?

354
00:33:21,567 --> 00:33:26,099
HK: No, no, there were still the machines {unclear}

355
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:30,799
We were so scared, these adults, me again, I was too dumb. 

356
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,266
Uh, that we would be sent back...to Auschwitz. 

357
00:33:35,267 --> 00:33:37,532
Because the machines weren't there. 

358
00:33:37,533 --> 00:33:45,132
But then they arrived and then we worked in the factory. 

359
00:33:45,133 --> 00:33:47,199
It was a munitions factory. 

360
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:53,666
I think it was casing for machine guns, but I'm not so sure what it was.  

361
00:33:53,667 --> 00:34:03,666
IV: What was the atmosphere like, compared to those few days in Auschwitz... from the guards to the food, sanitary conditions?

362
00:34:03,667 --> 00:34:12,566
HK: It was a relief, of course. Uh, 300 women were already there. 

363
00:34:12,567 --> 00:34:19,966
In the beginning the food was bettern than in Theresienstadt but that was just a few days. 

364
00:34:19,967 --> 00:34:26,299
Until the SS from Auschwitz arrived, in the beginning we had a local SS: 

365
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:35,499
Young girls who had wanted to become nurses, but then had to become SS women at the end of the war.  

366
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:38,866
They had not been in an camp before this. 

367
00:34:38,867 --> 00:34:42,766
And the cooks were civilian cooks. 

368
00:34:42,767 --> 00:34:48,866
And that changed abruptly when the SS personnel from Auschwitz arrived. 

369
00:34:48,867 --> 00:34:57,832
But yes, we also froze there and we were very hungry there. 

370
00:34:57,833 --> 00:35:03,066
But compared to Auschwitz it was still different.  

371
00:35:03,067 --> 00:35:09,399
We had the feeling there that we could survive if we stayed there. 

372
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:15,799
IV: So at that time you were already aware that it was about survival {unclear}

373
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:28,099
HK: Yes, yes, of course we were aware of that already in Auschwitz, that we only survived through the work transports, when we get into them.  

374
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:33,499
IV: uh, how did things develop in Oederan, your time there?

375
00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:47,032
HK: Yes, we worked night shifts, day shifts, and otherwise we lay in bed. 

376
00:35:47,033 --> 00:35:51,932
Or we talked to each other, we couldn't go anywhere. 

377
00:35:51,933 --> 00:35:54,732
Sometime we had to stand for roll call. 

378
00:35:54,733 --> 00:35:59,766
In the cold too, but it was not as bad as in Auschwitz. 

379
00:35:59,767 --> 00:36:08,966
Uh, we had only the same set of clothes for 6 months. I no longer remember how I washed them. 

380
00:36:08,967 --> 00:36:11,299
There were no undergarments. 

381
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:21,132
We lost a lot of weight, but we held on to the idea that ... the war couldn't last much longer. 

382
00:36:21,133 --> 00:36:25,832
The airplanes flew over us, the ones that bombed Dresden. 

383
00:36:25,833 --> 00:36:29,466
Which we didn't mind, we were pleased. 

384
00:36:29,467 --> 00:36:33,199
Even if a bomb were to fall on us, but...

385
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,266
IV: But you had the thought that the war could be over soon.

386
00:36:38,267 --> 00:36:40,999
And that you could be rescued then {unclear}.

387
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:49,799
HK: We could be rescued, but even if we got killed, as long as the German got killed, we would have accepted that too {laughing}.

388
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:59,932
IV: And how long, you said it was the airplanes that bombed Dresden, that was shortly before the end of the war. 

389
00:36:59,933 --> 00:37:00,166
HK: Yes, yes. 

390
00:37:00,167 --> 00:37:01,499
IV: What happened then?

391
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:02,099
HK: Well.

392
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:07,699
IV: DId the mood change, and the contact to the SS or was it even possible to work, was there {unclear}?

393
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:17,366
HK: We worked, worked long, uh I think until the end, but you'd have to asked someone else. 

394
00:37:17,367 --> 00:37:20,999
But I think we worked up to the end. 

395
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,566
There was less and less food of course. 

396
00:37:23,567 --> 00:37:27,599
Until it was just a clear soup. 

397
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:40,732
Yes, and then...we knew then that the army was getting closer, that the end was near and then unfortunately we had to get on a transport. 

398
00:37:40,733 --> 00:37:51,366
Again, as always, in rows of five and this time were about 70in an open cattle car. 

399
00:37:51,367 --> 00:37:55,632
We couldn't sit, nothing, we could only stand. 

400
00:37:55,633 --> 00:37:58,132
Nothing to eat, nothing. 

401
00:37:58,133 --> 00:38:07,032
And an old man was locked in with us again, as a guard in a military uniform. 

402
00:38:07,033 --> 00:38:09,832
He railed against the SS the same way {laughing}.

403
00:38:09,833 --> 00:38:13,999
Uh, he didn't have any news from his family. 

404
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,666
Didn't know where they were. 

405
00:38:16,667 --> 00:38:20,166
And he had only gotten old bread, too.

406
00:38:20,167 --> 00:38:22,366
Some marmelade.

407
00:38:22,367 --> 00:38:38,399
While some SS men's rail car had been hitched to us {laughing} and the SS women and the SS men were celebrating together, with sparkling wine. 

408
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,199
And jive. 

409
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,132
And I didn't know what jive is. 

410
00:38:43,133 --> 00:38:52,032
And when I got to England in '46, the first thing I wanted..when I went shopping with my mother, I wanted jive.  

411
00:38:52,033 --> 00:38:54,532
Because I had no idea what it was. 

412
00:38:54,533 --> 00:38:59,999
IV: So the camp and the factories were evacuated, also the...

413
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:00,999
HK: Yes. 

414
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:01,999
IV: All the SS had {unclear}

415
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,432
HK: All of them, yes. 

416
00:39:03,433 --> 00:39:04,332
IV: Withdrawn. 

417
00:39:04,333 --> 00:39:06,232
HK: Yes, we didn't know where to. 

418
00:39:06,233 --> 00:39:09,899
With us, because nothing was moving on the tracks. 

419
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,932
I think they had wanted to go to Ravensbrück but nothing was moving anymore. 

420
00:39:13,933 --> 00:39:20,299
And we just stood in one place or were moved back and forth. 

421
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:21,932
For about 8 days. 

422
00:39:21,933 --> 00:39:33,032
And then we were in, I think it was Sudentenland and some of the adults came from Sudetenland. 

423
00:39:33,033 --> 00:39:46,999
And they recognized it and said, the camp eldest, who represented us, she was supposed to tell the SS that Theresienstadt was close by. 

424
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:48,799
And she can be rid of us. 

425
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,332
And she agreed to this. 

426
00:39:51,333 --> 00:39:58,332
And we got out in Leitmeritz and walked to Theresienstadt and  

427
00:39:58,333 --> 00:40:01,432
IV: Unguarded, just well, well...

428
00:40:01,433 --> 00:40:06,732
HK: Yes, one woman went crazy right when we were walking through Leitmeritz. 

429
00:40:06,733 --> 00:40:13,166
We made a large circle around her, because we still had some pride. 

430
00:40:13,167 --> 00:40:17,032
And started to sing Czech national songs.

431
00:40:17,033 --> 00:40:22,732
But on the pavement there were still women with swastikas. 

432
00:40:22,733 --> 00:40:28,766
Well, and then we arrived at the Balken, in Theresienstadt. 

433
00:40:28,767 --> 00:40:32,232
And people were already standing there. 

434
00:40:32,233 --> 00:40:34,232
They were looking to see who was coming. 

435
00:40:34,233 --> 00:40:37,432
And the SS wasn't allowed in. 

436
00:40:37,433 --> 00:40:46,266
And for some funny reason the Sturmbannführerin {SS woman} said goodbye to me {laughing}.  

437
00:40:46,267 --> 00:40:49,266
And wished me all the best. 

438
00:40:49,267 --> 00:40:53,666
And that I should not remember.. her badly. 

439
00:40:53,667 --> 00:40:57,966
Yes, and Ella walked in. 

440
00:40:57,967 --> 00:41:00,199
Ella saw me first. 

441
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,366
She had played the main role in Brundibar, had always sung the cat. 

442
00:41:04,367 --> 00:41:09,166
And she turned around and walked to my father. 

443
00:41:09,167 --> 00:41:11,532
"Helga is there, Helga is there"

444
00:41:11,533 --> 00:41:14,832
Yes, but I couldn't go to my father. 

445
00:41:14,833 --> 00:41:23,232
Because in the meantime so many sick transports had arrived and spotted fever had come to Theresienstadt. 

446
00:41:23,233 --> 00:41:25,499
And we had to go into quarantine. 

447
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:35,799
But somehow in the back of my head I remember that I was ...with my father once and that he had burned the clothes. 

448
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:42,266
Because they were totally filthy because we had been in open cattle cars. 

449
00:41:42,267 --> 00:41:46,132
And there was smoke and I had never washed it before. 

450
00:41:46,133 --> 00:41:53,232
And on the back was written a large KL, concentration camp. 

451
00:41:53,233 --> 00:41:55,199
With my number. 

452
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,232
Yes, I was in quarantine there. 

453
00:41:59,233 --> 00:42:05,499
And then, the Red Cross took over Theresienstadt.

454
00:42:05,500 --> 00:42:08,532
But some of the SS were also still there. 

455
00:42:08,533 --> 00:42:14,499
Then the SS left, but the Red Cross left soon too. 

456
00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:21,199
Because the Russians were approaching and they didin't recognize the International Red Cross. 

457
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,632
So the actual liberation came with the Russians. 

458
00:42:26,633 --> 00:42:36,166
But the whole time the mood there was, it was really chaos there because...

459
00:42:36,167 --> 00:42:36,666
IV: Disorganization, too...

460
00:42:36,667 --> 00:42:41,166
HK: Disorganization, also because so many transports had arrived.

461
00:42:41,167 --> 00:42:49,099
Uh, suddenly the French there and such a babble of languages that there had never been before. 

462
00:42:49,100 --> 00:43:03,166
Yes, and the day, I describe...not me, I think my father writes a letter to my mother, that we had spent it together.  

463
00:43:03,167 --> 00:43:07,732
And I had already rim away from the quarantine, when the turmoil began.

464
00:43:07,733 --> 00:43:13,966
The quarantine was outside {emphasis} of Theresienstadt in the barracks. 

465
00:43:13,967 --> 00:43:21,166
That had been built originally for the recuperating soldiers, Germans. 

466
00:43:21,167 --> 00:43:25,832
So I ran away from there to my father. 

467
00:43:25,833 --> 00:43:33,399
But exactly what happened in all that chaos {laughing} I no longer know. 

468
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,666
IV: So your father and Edda had been in Theresienstadt the whole time?

469
00:43:36,667 --> 00:43:36,866
HK: Yes.

470
00:43:36,867 --> 00:43:38,999
IV: The whole time that you were in Auschwitz and in Oederan. 

471
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,166
HK: Yes, yes. 

472
00:43:41,167 --> 00:43:49,999
IV: OK: so the memory of that day is, because of all the chaos...what happened next?

473
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,999
So then suddenly, it's a bit strange, suddenly you are free...

474
00:43:55,000 --> 00:44:04,632
HK: Yes, it wasn't like that...my father, who only had one leg, could move as freely as the others. 

475
00:44:04,633 --> 00:44:08,999
And he wanted to wait until things had calmed down a bit. 

476
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,566
Until an official transport left for Brünn. 

477
00:44:12,567 --> 00:44:25,199
Yes, and in the meantime, my cousin, the one who had sent the packages, had managed to get all the way from southern Moravia to Theresienstadt. 

478
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:33,699
On Russian military vehicles, she took all kinds of risk, just to reach us. 

479
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:45,766
And by then I had registered us for a transport to Brünn, because I had seen a bug on my polster. 

480
00:44:45,767 --> 00:44:48,666
And i thought it was a louse {laughing}.

481
00:44:48,667 --> 00:44:53,732
And then I said: "I have managed to stay alive up til now

482
00:44:53,733 --> 00:44:57,699
I don't want to catch spotted fever. I want to get out of Theresienstadt."

483
00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:07,866
And we, she was, I think, just one or two days in Theresienstadt and we went back to Kijow, where we had come from. 

484
00:45:07,867 --> 00:45:11,166
And we waited there for relatives. 

485
00:45:11,167 --> 00:45:13,566
Because there were also young relatives. 

486
00:45:13,567 --> 00:45:20,299
But after about two months only one cousin had returned. 

487
00:45:20,300 --> 00:45:23,799
Uh, all the others were dead. 

488
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:29,099
Sixty members of the family did not return. 

489
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:37,499
Then I took an acceptance exam for Gymnasium {high school}.

490
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:41,932
But my mother was trying to get me to come to England. 

491
00:45:41,933 --> 00:45:52,599
And in March '46 I flew with a military airplane, I don't know anymore whether it was the British Army or Czech Army, to England. 

492
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,366
I only had a permit for 3 months. 

493
00:45:55,367 --> 00:45:58,666
But since I was a minor, I was able to stay there. 

494
00:45:58,667 --> 00:46:00,432
IV: And your father?

495
00:46:00,433 --> 00:46:06,266
HK: My father stayed in Czechoslovakia until '48.  

496
00:46:06,267 --> 00:46:08,466
And then he came to Vienna. 

497
00:46:08,467 --> 00:46:12,432
IV: Since your parents were already divorced, there was no plan to reunite?

498
00:46:12,433 --> 00:46:18,632
HK: Yes, my father didn't know languages, He didn't want to go anywhere else. 

499
00:46:18,633 --> 00:46:29,732
Yes certainly...losing me was very painful for him but I didn't think about those things. 

500
00:46:29,733 --> 00:46:36,499
Loss was something I was used too. 

501
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:46,066
And I always wanted to be with my mother and I had probably become egoistic inside. 

502
00:46:46,067 --> 00:46:54,232
IV: But I think when it is always about survival, it can't be called egoistic. 

503
00:46:54,233 --> 00:46:58,599
You also have to make sure that you manage in the future. 

504
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,999
I think your father probably also felt that you'd be better off with your mother. 

505
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:03,132
HK: Yes, he did. 

506
00:47:03,133 --> 00:47:04,999
IV: And that for the future too {unclear}

507
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:18,932
HK: Yes, he certainly did because Vienna was occupied and bombed and nothing was returned to him and so we didn't have anything, nothing. 

508
00:47:18,933 --> 00:47:26,299
In England I was given a stipend for school and of course I had to learn English. 

509
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:29,566
And then I completed my school leaving certificate. 

510
00:47:29,567 --> 00:47:38,466
And then I went to college for a year but my mother didn't have any money so I began working. 

511
00:47:38,467 --> 00:47:46,499
And I thought I would complete my studies later, and work part-time. 

512
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:50,032
The director at my school had promised that, too. 

513
00:47:50,033 --> 00:47:53,132
But I had gotten married in the meantime. 

514
00:47:53,133 --> 00:47:57,332
To a German refugee, from East Prussia. 

515
00:47:57,333 --> 00:47:57,999
IV: Yes. 

516
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:07,166
HK: He had come to Ethiopia as a young boy and went to Bangkok and in Bangkok he was employed by an international company. 

517
00:48:07,167 --> 00:48:09,299
And marriage brought me to Bangkok. 

518
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:15,999
IV: That sounds good {unclear} when one doesn't know everything about your past, when you know little about someone. 

519
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:16,999
Because that is exciting [laughing}

520
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:17,999
HK: Yes, then I...

521
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,066
IV: their life stories...

522
00:48:19,067 --> 00:48:21,266
HK: I had a daughter in Bangkok. 

523
00:48:21,267 --> 00:48:27,999
Then he was transferred to Sierra Leone, which was called the death of the white man {laughing}.

524
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:35,232
He went there but he didn't expect me to live there

525
00:48:35,233 --> 00:48:40,132
And so we went to Ethiopia where his brother had also fled.

526
00:48:40,133 --> 00:48:50,066
But not until '39, by chance, help that my husband had organized through a Nazi journalist. 

527
00:48:50,067 --> 00:48:53,699
And he was also able to rescue his parents that way.

528
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:58,866
But he had meanwhile been expelled by the Italiens as an anti-fascist.

529
00:48:58,867 --> 00:49:04,232
And so he went to Bangkok {laughing} and we returned to Ethiopia. 

530
00:49:04,233 --> 00:49:08,766
Because he had resigned and his mother and brother were there. 

531
00:49:08,767 --> 00:49:10,866
And that is where my son was born. 

532
00:49:10,867 --> 00:49:18,732
IV: How did you manage to deal with your past experiences?

533
00:49:18,733 --> 00:49:26,999
Well, it is always a part of of you, there are the kind of persons where afterwards there is a break {unclear}

534
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:26,999
HK: There was a break. 

535
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:32,232
IV: The previous witness who was here fell into amnesia, he couldn't remember anything for 6 years. 

536
00:49:32,233 --> 00:49:41,499
And some people practice a healthy process of repression. They say:" just don't think about it" and start a new life. 

537
00:49:41,500 --> 00:49:44,899
And the rest stays there. 

538
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,999
You were relatively young, not really a child anymore, but a youth.

539
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:50,332
HK: Hmm. 

540
00:49:50,333 --> 00:49:55,766
IV: And when you were in England, it still affected you. 

541
00:49:55,767 --> 00:49:57,966
And your mother must have wanted to know what happened. 

542
00:49:57,967 --> 00:50:00,399
HK: No, we never spoke about it. 

543
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:08,632
It wasn't until later that I began, I had difficulties coming to Austria. 

544
00:50:08,633 --> 00:50:21,466
But I had to go somewhere because my daughter was born deaf and there was no way to teach her the language in Ethiopia. 

545
00:50:21,467 --> 00:50:23,032
At first we wanted to go to England. 

546
00:50:23,033 --> 00:50:25,899
But my husband had a German passport. 

547
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:32,866
And there were problems, although his company had promised to take him back..  

548
00:50:32,867 --> 00:50:39,899
And then in the end there was only the choice from his company: Germany and Austria. 

549
00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:41,932
And we chose Austria. 

550
00:50:41,933 --> 00:50:45,666
Because we found a good teacher for the deaf. 

551
00:50:45,667 --> 00:50:47,266
And because my father was there. 

552
00:50:47,267 --> 00:50:49,699
And I wasn't happy about it. 

553
00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:51,566
I wanted to go to Australia. 

554
00:50:51,567 --> 00:50:54,232
Or Canada, just far away from Europe.

555
00:50:54,233 --> 00:50:57,632
And definitely not to Austria. 

556
00:50:57,633 --> 00:51:04,932
And for a long time I only spoke English with my husband. I didn't have any friends, was secluded. 

557
00:51:04,933 --> 00:51:11,266
And I wasn't really happy in Austria until '68. 

558
00:51:11,267 --> 00:51:17,266
We bought a little house there, a townhouse. 

559
00:51:17,267 --> 00:51:21,532
And my neighbors were very open. 

560
00:51:21,533 --> 00:51:25,366
And I became friends with them. 

561
00:51:25,367 --> 00:51:28,766
One was a half-Jew, but had concealed it. 

562
00:51:28,767 --> 00:51:33,399
She was the sister of Johannes Marius Simmel.

563
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,532
And he did not conceal it {laughing}.

564
00:51:36,533 --> 00:51:41,899
And on the other side was a very liberal Catholic. 

565
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:47,632
Who founded the "We are church in Austria."

566
00:51:47,633 --> 00:51:53,566
And I worked through the past a lot with her, but my children say they alway knew {laughter}

567
00:51:53,567 --> 00:51:56,599
So I'm not sure. 

568
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:10,732
Eighty...sometime at the end of the 80s or early 90s I participated in a film in America as a witness.  

569
00:52:10,733 --> 00:52:16,366
And then I worked through the past a lot in the film. 

570
00:52:16,367 --> 00:52:20,866
IV: And before that with the family, even with your children, was it...

571
00:52:20,867 --> 00:52:21,999
HK: spoken about directly. 

572
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:23,032
IV: Not addressed. 

573
00:52:23,033 --> 00:52:25,532
HK: No, but they say they knew everything.

574
00:52:25,533 --> 00:52:29,966
I don't really know how it happened. 

575
00:52:29,967 --> 00:52:36,032
Whether they really knew and only think that they knew it from the film. 

576
00:52:36,033 --> 00:52:43,032
And then imagined they knew everything because they started reading books. 

577
00:52:43,033 --> 00:52:46,966
I can't say whether they imagined it or I did. 

578
00:52:46,967 --> 00:52:50,332
IV: But they, your children, they never asked you directy. 

579
00:52:50,333 --> 00:52:50,966
What was then {unclear}?

580
00:52:50,967 --> 00:52:53,032
HK: Asked very little. 

581
00:52:53,033 --> 00:53:03,332
But three days ago I gave a reading in Vienna at the EU and I saw that my son had shed a few tears there.

582
00:53:03,333 --> 00:53:14,032
He is a man, in his fifties, a pediatrician, I wouldn't have expected that. 

583
00:53:14,033 --> 00:53:18,899
That he is so moved, I was reading from my journal. 

584
00:53:18,900 --> 00:53:21,266
I wasn't reading. A young girl read. 

585
00:53:21,267 --> 00:53:22,099
IV: Read from your...?

586
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:30,266
HK: Read and the head of the EU office read the father and narrator and I answered questions. 

587
00:53:30,267 --> 00:53:40,299
IV: Do you know what moved you to face it so much later. 

588
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:48,999
Between not talking about it at all and suddenly going public with a film, that is a big step. 

589
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,032
HK: Yes, that was the first step, but not taken as a witness. 

590
00:53:54,033 --> 00:53:57,766
Then I made a second film. 

591
00:53:57,767 --> 00:54:00,266
It is called "Voices of the Children."

592
00:54:00,267 --> 00:54:05,132
It is based around that fact that we were only three children who kept a diary. 

593
00:54:05,133 --> 00:54:09,199
It won a prize in America. 

594
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:19,632
And then somehow Ella brought Hannelore Brenner-Wonschik to Prague where we all met. 

595
00:54:19,633 --> 00:54:31,666
And then we, who had met for a long time from Room 128, we wanted to write a book about the girls who didn't survive. 

596
00:54:31,667 --> 00:54:35,632
And who were our friends, but how should we do this?

597
00:54:35,633 --> 00:54:45,599
And then Ella brought this journalist and the first book came out in 2004, and I have been a witness ever since.

598
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:54,332
IV: You had already been to Oederan, I know that you were interviewed there. 

599
00:54:54,333 --> 00:54:58,866
What was it like for you to return to this site? You were probably in Auschwitz too? 

600
00:54:58,867 --> 00:55:01,099
HK: No, I will never go to Auschwitz. 

601
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:04,466
I was asked to go this year in January.

602
00:55:04,467 --> 00:55:07,866
With President Fischer from Austria. 

603
00:55:07,867 --> 00:55:13,032
The Austrian ambassador in Poland even called me twice. 

604
00:55:13,033 --> 00:55:13,799
I won't go. 

605
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:26,332
And now Mr. Either who often led the Austrian delegation, asked me to go with the youth. I won't go. 

606
00:55:26,333 --> 00:55:29,766
IV: But you did go to Oederan? 

607
00:55:29,767 --> 00:55:30,532
HK: Yes, to Oederan...

608
00:55:30,533 --> 00:55:33,932
IV: What was it like for you go go there?

609
00:55:33,933 --> 00:55:41,232
HK: It was suddenly a small Saxon vacation town that I had never seen. 

610
00:55:41,233 --> 00:55:43,232
I had never seen it. 

611
00:55:43,233 --> 00:55:47,032
Really, all I had seen was the factory. 

612
00:55:47,033 --> 00:55:56,566
And through the courtyard to the camp...and what one could see of the camp, out the window, a few houses. 

613
00:55:56,567 --> 00:56:00,566
I was quite surprised. 

614
00:56:00,567 --> 00:56:03,332
I didn't want to go there alone. 

615
00:56:03,333 --> 00:56:08,966
I didn't go very early, like the other witnesses. I came later. 

616
00:56:08,967 --> 00:56:12,466
Alone with Ms. Brenner-Wonschik.

617
00:56:12,467 --> 00:56:24,266
I wouldn't have gone otherwise, but I was very surprised by the friendly welcome from the people involved with it. 

618
00:56:24,267 --> 00:56:30,832
And the year before, for my birthday, many of them came to visit me in Vienna {laughing}.

619
00:56:30,833 --> 00:56:40,632
And someone else was there and on Sunday others are coming, so my memories of Oederan are not so terrible. 

620
00:56:40,633 --> 00:56:45,432
Besides, we were at the camp, but it all looks so different 

621
00:56:45,433 --> 00:56:47,166
It is not recognizable. 

622
00:56:47,167 --> 00:56:50,332
The director from the factory, whicch again makes ...

623
00:56:50,333 --> 00:56:51,399
IV: Twine or {unclear}

624
00:56:51,400 --> 00:57:02,599
HK: produces twine, he even brought the plans from the architects who had built it but I wasn't able to reconstruct it from them. 

625
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,266
I knew exactly where everything had been. 

626
00:57:05,267 --> 00:57:08,132
But you can't see that today. 

627
00:57:08,133 --> 00:57:11,766
Those are huge machines and the stairs are torn off.  

628
00:57:11,767 --> 00:57:15,466
And there is no upper level. 

629
00:57:15,467 --> 00:57:17,332
There is nothing left. 

630
00:57:17,333 --> 00:57:20,166
Not even an immediate memory, no. 

631
00:57:20,167 --> 00:57:23,632
IV: No {unclear} memory, so no...

632
00:57:23,633 --> 00:57:26,866
And why did you decide this now. You are here for the first time, I believe. 

633
00:57:26,867 --> 00:57:27,632
HK: Yes, for the first...

634
00:57:27,633 --> 00:57:29,632
IV: Why did you come now?

635
00:57:29,633 --> 00:57:33,099
And what is your impression now?

636
00:57:33,100 --> 00:57:41,099
HK: Well, I thought it is the 70th anniversary of the end of the war. 

637
00:57:41,100 --> 00:57:45,332
And if I don't come now I will probably never come {laughing}.

638
00:57:45,333 --> 00:57:52,332
And so I decided and since my granddaughter said she would accompany me, I said yes. 

639
00:57:52,333 --> 00:57:54,199
IV: And you are meeting people here who you...?

640
00:57:54,200 --> 00:58:12,232
HK: Also Handa, who was with me the whole time, in the children's home, in Auschwitz with me, and [emphasis} Oederan and the death transport back to Theresienstadt, I was happy to see her again.  

641
00:58:12,233 --> 00:58:15,799
SInce we may never meet again in our lifetime.  

642
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:21,099
IV: And this is now a memorial site, also a former camp that you never knew. 

643
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:27,966
What impact does that have on you now, I mean, it is not a walk in the park. 

644
00:58:27,967 --> 00:58:30,999
Even for someone born afterwards, who visits a concentration camp.

645
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:40,032
HK: No, a walk in the park it is not, because I knew who was hanged here, Bonhoeffer and the Canaris and this whole group. 

646
00:58:40,033 --> 00:58:48,232
So really for me it was a hommage to Bonhöffer. 

647
00:58:48,233 --> 00:58:49,799
Although I am a Jew {laughing}.

648
00:58:49,800 --> 00:59:02,966
Because I did a reading in Wuppertal where the first free church, or whatever it is called, had turned away from  

649
00:59:02,967 --> 00:59:07,399
the Protestants, who...

650
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:07,499
IV: who cooperated with HItler. 

651
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:12,532
HK: Cooperated and so it was important to me. 

652
00:59:12,533 --> 00:59:19,866
And since this university professor, who was my neighbor, who died three years ago. 

653
00:59:19,867 --> 00:59:27,132
He had requested the famous song: "in you..." how does it go, "sheltered" be played on his death day.

654
00:59:27,133 --> 00:59:29,166
IV: From Loving Forces  {unverständlich}.

655
00:59:29,167 --> 00:59:33,432
HK: So somehow it was important to me. 

656
00:59:33,433 --> 00:59:35,366
IV: I would like to thank you for this talk.

657
00:59:35,367 --> 00:59:36,066
HK: You are welcome. 

658
00:59:36,067 --> 00:59:41,766
IV: I thought it was nice, if you can call it that. That sounds dumb. 

659
00:59:41,767 --> 00:59:44,199
But the talk was nice. The experiences are sad. 

660
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:45,999
HK: Yes. 

661
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,599
IV: But, thank you. 

662
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:49,999
HK: You are welcome. 

663
00:59:50,000 --> 00:00:00,000
IV: And, yes, I had that feeling....